I have no trouble producing a 8 beat loop, but I suck at turning it into a song. HELP

[NotSoSiniSter]

Hello, first post on this forum. :P

So, I started throwing myself at music production and DJing about 10 months ago. My biggest motivation to keep on going is progress, even tiny baby steps. If I learned something new today, I will take that as a small success. But one thing just hasn't budged, ever since I started piano composition 2 years ago. I struggle to make a complete song. :/ With piano, I would randomly stumbled on an idea, no matter how hard I tried, I could never force an idea to emerge, and I would just sit there and play it out and polish it. Eventually, I would have about a 30 second clip that I was happy with. But, that idea wouldn't grow, no matter how much I messed with it, it refused. Only after about about a month, I would finally get something out of it. But this new idea always felt like it was just tacked on, and the ideas never seemed to flow. And sadly, this has transfered over to my electronic music that I do now...

Whats better is that first idea comes to me so much better, I've gotten to the point where I sit down and I just say "its time to start something new" and I start messing around and I synth line suddenly emerges. I would then mess with this new idea hours, adding drums, bass, etc. I would have a solid 8 beat loop. But...that is where it all ends. I'm stuck, and my new idea won't budge.

Does anyone have/had a similar problem? Did you work through it? If so, omg help me. :P

Thank you so much! :D I hope this first post makes me fall in love with gearslutz. :D

[ruining]

Everybody's writing process is a little different. I was in the exact same place as you. I've got serious ADD when it comes to writing a new section or returning to work that I had started a day or two earlier.

What worked for me was when I started doing remixes, I already had the vox for the entire song, so I could piece together something that would work, and it typically didn't feel nearly as forced as when I would just cram a bunch of random ideas together. I couldn't write sections, but I could write melodies. I eventually started writing melodies, and then supporting chords to go under, then worried about instrumentation that would work with the chord progression.

If I've got someone to collaborate with, it's that much easier. I'll have them work out the melody to one section and see where they would take the next part vocally and then I could build on top of that.

I don't know, man. I've struggled with this a long time and it's what I finally found that kind of works for me. I'm all ears to see what others say. I could still use some help.

[GlenGood]

Production Tips | timothyallan.com

It's normal to suck at making full songs, if all you have practiced is 8 beat loops - just focus on finishing songs, and gradually it will improve

[atma]

don't fall into the trap of writing a few bars and then start arranging other instruments over it; you'll get nowhere.

you have to force yourself to sit down and compose a piece of music. use strictly a piano and write all the various parts—verses, choruses, bridge, etc. Even if the parts and transitions are TERRIBLE, do it anyway and commit to it.

THEN go back and arrange it properly with other instrumentation, and THEN go to the mixing stage and fine tune all of your sounds/production details/fx, etc.

You have to start working differently for anything to change, and it's painful to force yourself to do it, but if you keep working the way you do, you'll simply keep creating loops and never finish songs.

that's my experience at least. good luck!

[SonicAlchemist]

Here are some ideas for you to try:

1) pick one of the ideas that has stumped in in the past that you believe in. Do you have one that you just *know* a more experienced composer could turn into something great?

2) play figure out (preferably notate) this idea with the harmonization that coimes naturally to you. Then search for harmonic variations. Look for that one place where you can substitute a different chord and it is magical.

3) Try to break your idea into smaller chunks of itself. If your idea is a full melody, look for motifs within it. Try to play around with these smaller ideas within the same harmonic framework you will use with the full exposition.

4) Think about how you will end your song. At this stage refuse to allow it to fade out. Conceive of an actual ending that you like that has the emotional release you want.

5) Think about at least one place in the song where things will build up and build up until a cool pay-off. This could be landing on a chorus after a driving pre-chorus, or it could be any number of other things. Find an idea that you like and fiddle with it until you have someplace you are excited to take the listener.

6) Start by introducing your simple motivic idea to the listener, then start playing with it. Build that up until you can introduce your full idea. Work towards that climactic moment you prepped, which could be one of those alternate harmonies you found. Remember to release tension and then rebuild it to taste , or even keep building the entire time if you want. But keep that sense of tension and release at the forefront of your mind, and make conscious decisions about what you are doing to the listener; never just fly on auto-pilot. Get to your climactic moment, and then connect the dots to your planned out ending.

Another thing to keep in mind is harmonic rhythm, which is the rate at which your harmonies change. Try beginning with a slower harmonic rhythm and increase it as you build to your climactic moment. Vivaldi's 4 Seasons is a good piece of music to listen to to get a good sense of this, but anything well-written will be helpful if you know what to listen for.

This is only one way to do it, of course, but it should be helpful. Later you can try to find a complimentary secondary idea to integrate, but that is more advanced. I suggest you start by writing a piece of music that sticks to the one idea and really dives deep into it.

Let me know if this helps! maybe post a file?

[invisiblekiduk]

I am exactly the same. I never ever know where to go with anything. It was the same back when guitar was my weapon of choice. Riffing riffing riffing and in the end just piles of short clips I could never mash together into songs. did end up with one or two tunes, but I'll lay those up to serendipity more than me ever working out a writing process.

With electronic music I can now combine this flaw with laziness, as I can happily make a nice loop, and then sit there for 30 mins tweaking while nodding my head. And then not record it.

Bad habits just need to be broken I guess!

[Yoozer]

It's called loopitis.

Overcoming “loopitis” ? Kim Lajoie’s Blog

[Kaoz]

I wouldn't worry about it, in some genres 8 bars is all you need.

[alphaproject]

It may mean you are not doing your "natural talent" or you have really high standards you can't match.

Could be alot of things.... You have anything posted?

[Sidechainer]

Yeah the problem really is that everybody has a different style of writing. Some people do very distinct parts (verse, chorus etc) while others just try to work progressive by adding more power to the allready existing parts to the end of the track. Maybe you could try to work with your idea that allready exists and try to build more little stuff around it and do very small variations at first. Problem could be that it starts to sound boring after a while.

[invisiblekiduk]

Some people have a VERY different style of writing


What a flid

[Cymatic Kicks]

One thing that helped me was to try and decide what part of the song did I want that loop to be a part of. Then, insert a midi clip that same length on a blank midi track below it. You've got 8 bars, that's a start.

From there, decide how long you want that section, if it's a chorus, go for 32 bars. Make the blank one 32 bars, and label it chorus. From there, move that blank clip further down into the track, and add other blank clips for the different sections. For example, an intro is often 8 or 16 bars, have that at the beginning of the track.

How many sections do you need? Great question, go listen to other songs in the same style you're going after, you should find that there's a common formula, for example, intro, bass drop, build, main section, build, main section with more, breakdown, build up, peak, breakdown, outro.

Literally count the bars inside the songs you like, plan accordingly. From there, it's filling in the details. Follow the formula until you are comfortable enough to do what you want.

[blinky909]

really listen to the stuff you want to make and chart it out. count along and mark down what the change is at every 32, is it an addition or subtraction or variation of the bass line or lead?

that really helped me to get past my 4 bar loop stuff.

here is my first attempt at a track that wasn't a 4 bar loop fest - it's not great, but finishing it forced me to move past my "addition and subtraction of the 4 bar elements" mentality.

http://asciibaron.dyndns.org/da_baron/delcite-3.mp3
(soundcloud is down right now?)

[Brainchild]

I use an RM1x to sequence, and for the longest time, I just built up loop after loop of a bar or two, and layered them all together, thinking "some day I'll put these loops into a chain, and then I'll convert the chain into a full song."

But that never happened.

So I just went into Song mode one day and played out a song's worth of synth noodling. Then I went back and recorded some drum stuff to another track. Then I went in and programmed in a bunch of filter sweeps and LFO nonsense. Then I edited the MIDI so it sounded tight.

Before I knew it, I had a real live song just like the cool kids make.

Recording MIDI live over long stretches gets you places you're unlikely to ever get by simply sequencing loops one after the other. The other benefit is getting into Program Change and Control Change messages feeding to various synths and effects over the course of the song to add the element of dynamism we all crave.

[blinky909]

Originally Posted by Brainchild

the element of dynamism we all crave.

[Goa-Dubs]

Originally Posted by Brainchild

I use an RM1x to sequence,

[blinky909]

i use an MPC 2000XL and the internal sequencers of the 303, x0xb0x, RX5, 808, and 909. what has really helped me is a tip from OldGearGuy - use a dry erase board to map the structure of the track in 32 count modules.

here's an exercise for you...

draw nine connected blocks on a piece of paper - each block represents a 32 count unit, like this:

[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]

write "intro" in the first block
write "outro" in the last block


[intro][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][outro]

put your loop into any ONE of the remaining seven blocks then pick a block to the right of center and put an X in it - this is your breakdown/bridge, like this:


[intro][ ][ ][ ][ ][loop][ X ][ ][outro]


now look at this while your loop is running and use it as a jumping off point to fill in the other blocks. with those filled out, work on the X block, the break/bridge block. then sort out the transitions between the blocks. the intro and outro are the last bits to deal with and should be obvious once everything else is sorted.

ymmv, but it's a start.

[djreflexion]

I can definitely empathize with you since I spent YEARS!! in this same boat and can even get caught up in this mode now. For me it progressed alot when I realized that the 8 bar loop I usually start on is the chorus which contains all of my sounds and then I just subtract from it and sequence it all out into verse,bridge, etc. There are also times when i've started on a smaller loop that worked great as pre-choruses or intros. I don't remember the last time i've started on anything that turned into a verse though since my initial ideas are usually too cluttered.

[NotSoSiniSter]

omg I love this site. :D So many thoughtful answers!!! :D This is such a nice motivation lift. Thank you so much, this site is like the metafilter of everything musical. :D

<3 <3 <3

[hugol]

Originally Posted by NotSoSiniSter

Does anyone have/had a similar problem? Did you work through it? If so, omg help me. :P

Ha-ha yes definitely. Very easy to fall into this trap - headphones on - get a short groove going - get obsessed with minor tweaks and layer after layer making it sound more and more interesting and busy - fall into a bit of a trance - loose all objectivity - not take it anywhere after 2 hours. Get bored and give up.

I think it's about managing your own expectations. Your tune isn't going to sound like a finished track after a few hours. It takes time, effort and perseverance - and more than often just luck and experimentation. A good tune takes you on a journey - creates interest through regular change. Force yourself to build outwards not just upwards. Don't be afraid to analyse and copy the structure of tracks you like.

[criminallysmooth]

I'd say chord progressions are the missing link, if you have 8 bars that don't go anywhere.

[JimmiG]

Originally Posted by djreflexion

I can definitely empathize with you since I spent YEARS!! in this same boat and can even get caught up in this mode now. For me it progressed alot when I realized that the 8 bar loop I usually start on is the chorus which contains all of my sounds and then I just subtract from it and sequence it all out into verse,bridge, etc. There are also times when i've started on a smaller loop that worked great as pre-choruses or intros. I don't remember the last time i've started on anything that turned into a verse though since my initial ideas are usually too cluttered.

It's the same for me. The first 8 bars you come up with are your hook, your main idea, the crescendo. It's what the song should build up to because that was the idea that inspired you to sit down and start working in the first place. The way I view it, the rest of the song is just there to introduce that part to the listener.

My songs are usually structured like this now: Intro-Verse-Chorus-Verse-Breakdown-Chorus-Fadeout. Finishing tracks is quicker now, but they are starting to sound a bit formulatic.

[serious]

I never try to force somthing , if you seem to loose your initial groove, stop, either take a break or start somthing new. I often find I'll let a half composed track sit for a week and when I re-open it the ideas flood in. It's sorta like mixing you don't wanna listen to much and loose sight of that original creativity that hits you, coming back with a fresh ear does a world of good.. For me anyway.

[NotSoSiniSter]

The one person that posted the link to the blog about looptitis really opened my eyes. I need to STOP polishing, and start structuring. Once I get that idea out, I need to start turning the shit into a song. THEN worry about the sounds and extra stuff. :D

[Susceptor]

Keep the same chords/key and try and build another line; add some pads/fx. See if this way you have 2 parts you can play with, use them to come up with the intro/outro. Maybe add another 3rd part for variation / breakdown.

However, the most important thing is not to force a song into existence, don't beat a dead horse. You should hear the song in your head, and feel it; sometimes I have this 16 bar loop and I have no ideea what to do with it, so I just let it rest. Maybe I'll get inspiration another day.

[blinky909]

Originally Posted by Susceptor

sometimes I have this 16 bar loop and I have no ideea what to do with it, so I just let it rest. Maybe I'll get inspiration another day.

i have hundreds of those i recorded. it has been suggested i drop them into Live and arrange into something more cohesive. that sounds like work.

[MACH4]

Originally Posted by blinky909

i have hundreds of those i recorded. it has been suggested i drop them into Live and arrange into something more cohesive. that sounds like work.

Work? WORK!?

WTF IS WORK!?

[Eric J]

Originally Posted by Kaoz

I wouldn't worry about it, in some genres 8 bars is all you need.

+1

Just extend the 8 bar loop out to 6 mintues and stick a while noise break in the middle somewhere. Then call it "tech house" and send it to the labels. You profit in no time.

[enossified]

Not everyone is good at writing songs, I'm certainly not.

If you want to learn how to write songs, do some covers. Pick a song you like, take it apart and figure out all the parts then record your own version. The more songs you learn, the more you will learn about songwriting.

Good luck.

[blinky909]

i use Cubase to deconstruct tracks i like. i import them as a stereo audio file and then put markers at the different parts with a comment about what is happening - "add bass" "drop everything but kick and string". very helpful.