what are you guys aiming for charts-wise as far as music? mainstream or underground?

[jalguitarman]

I would like to see my music hit the charts but also be real enough to appeal to those who listen to more of the underground stuff. Having said that, I have heard some awesome underground stuff that I would love to see make the big time. I have also heard underground stuff that needs to stay underground because it has nothing appealing in my opinion. Just a bunch of noise over a beat. I have no problem with noise samples but I like to hear some sort of melody. I checked out some older trance stuff the other day and I couldn't hardly stand it. No melody, just noise and effects.
To be realistic I don't know how much room in any radio medium there is for instrumental electronica since all my tracks are instrumental.

[Paggos]

Originally Posted by fooddude

I didn't read all the posts....but, I agree with the person that said, being happy with just one song to be a Classic, timeless and remembered.

Im a n00b..but I really think that's the main thing..just one classic hit, then all your other stuff will be sought after.

Examples where artists made one big hit, a classic, remembered forever, while their other songs, although good as well, aren't always so close to as good as their "Classic" that made them very popular:
Osunlade - April
Spinna - Shaun Escoffery - Days like This remix
Armand Van Heldon - you Don't Know Me
Fingers - Can You Feel It
....etc., etc..... those songs made them popular and famous..and their other songs (although really good still I repeat) just are never gonna stack up to those classics.

For people to like this ‪Cornucopia (original mix)‬‏ - YouTube

[kilon]

There is certainly a distinct diffirence to doing something commercial to doing something in your free time.

This goes back to me among other people bashing deadmou5e and his music, getting the automatic reply that we are jealous of his music and the fact he is popular and we are not.

But if you really think about it , we cant compare, not because he sells some million record or whatever and I am selling zero, or he is making great music and my music sucks. But merely on the fact that selling a piece of music requires that is sellable , if such a word exist.

Artists (not just musicians) go around with the idea that just because they are extremely good at what they are doing they will become famous, but fame means approval and approval implies that your audiance has at least similar taste with you.

The problem with music and especially with electronic is that it can be extremely subjective.

When it come to my philosophy , I dont have any plans to sell my music , music is not my living is just a way to relax, and I kind I like the freedome of compositing whenever I like whatever I like. I am not worried if it undeground , mainstream or even faithful to my style. I only care how much fun I had making the track.

And I know with this line of thinking I have more chance being hit by a comet than hitting the charts , that is why I laught at the jealousy remarks.

For me if you are serious at becoming a pro , and want to become super famous, the path is clear, make sure your music appeal to people, make sure you recycle the old and add something new, make sure you got good contacts that can promote your music , be a business man and understand that music is a product that is sold to people and as such you need to market it well. This is how thing work and if you dont like it you should stick to making music for yourself. I could have been a pro musician , I decided not to , I know however that if I was a pro I would not have created the music I have created so far nor explored the possibilities that I have. So fame comes with a big price for an artist.

I know eve pro digital painters that work 8 hours a day to return back home and work another 4-5 for their own stuff to exercise this beatiful freedom that they cant enjoy as pros. So its not a music problem, its the fact that you try to sell something that is easy to sell , and its plain easier to seel something that appeals to more people, something that is ordinary instead of extrodinary.

On the other hand its amazing to do something you love and be paid for it. So for me is not a matter of jealousy or pity , its a choice , you either make it or dont.

Pick your poison

[Ki-Lab]

I agree with Kilon. good post mister.

[Schwarzwald]

Originally Posted by kilon

There is certainly a distinct diffirence to doing something commercial to doing something in your free time.

This goes back to me among other people bashing deadmou5e and his music, getting the automatic reply that we are jealous of his music and the fact he is popular and we are not.

But if you really think about it , we cant compare, not because he sells some million record or whatever and I am selling zero, or he is making great music and my music sucks. But merely on the fact that selling a piece of music requires that is sellable , if such a word exist.

Artists (not just musicians) go around with the idea that just because they are extremely good at what they are doing they will become famous, but fame means approval and approval implies that your audiance has at least similar taste with you.

The problem with music and especially with electronic is that it can be extremely subjective.

When it come to my philosophy , I dont have any plans to sell my music , music is not my living is just a way to relax, and I kind I like the freedome of compositing whenever I like whatever I like. I am not worried if it undeground , mainstream or even faithful to my style. I only care how much fun I had making the track.

And I know with this line of thinking I have more chance being hit by a comet than hitting the charts , that is why I laught at the jealousy remarks.

For me if you are serious at becoming a pro , and want to become super famous, the path is clear, make sure your music appeal to people, make sure you recycle the old and add something new, make sure you got good contacts that can promote your music , be a business man and understand that music is a product that is sold to people and as such you need to market it well. This is how thing work and if you dont like it you should stick to making music for yourself. I could have been a pro musician , I decided not to , I know however that if I was a pro I would not have created the music I have created so far nor explored the possibilities that I have. So fame comes with a big price for an artist.

I know eve pro digital painters that work 8 hours a day to return back home and work another 4-5 for their own stuff to exercise this beatiful freedom that they cant enjoy as pros. So its not a music problem, its the fact that you try to sell something that is easy to sell , and its plain easier to seel something that appeals to more people, something that is ordinary instead of extrodinary.

On the other hand its amazing to do something you love and be paid for it. So for me is not a matter of jealousy or pity , its a choice , you either make it or dont.

Pick your poison

This isn't directed at you Kilon, just my opinion on some things you said.

I think a common misconception among amateurs/hobbyist is that you have to sell out to make money.

There's tons of artist out there FAMOUS and RICH who aren't sacrificing any creativity. I think it's just a matter of amateur artist trying to hold on to some ridiculous concept that only they're truely having "fun" and truely making "Art" because that's all they have to hold on to. When really, as I said before, it takes much more audacity to leap out in the public eye and say "HEY, THIS IS ME, THIS IS MY MUSIC AND YOU'LL LIKE IT SO MUCH YOU'LL PAY FOR IT".

Now sure, you CAN go out there and make clone music, just copy other successful formulas, which I will defend to the DEATH, that that doesn't make your music bad, however, perhaps boring, if not unoriginal.

HOWEVER, I think the underground is just as unoriginal, full of little pockets of people doing the exact same style and then sucking each others tallywackers and saying how cooler they are than the others.

But, if you REALLY thought your music was THAT good, you'd know everyone would be able to appreciate it, and you'd have no problem trying to take it as far as it could go.

[kilon]

Originally Posted by Schwarzwald

This isn't directed at you Kilon, just my opinion on some things you said.

I think a common misconception among amateurs/hobbyist is that you have to sell out to make money.

There's tons of artist out there FAMOUS and RICH who aren't sacrificing any creativity. I think it's just a matter of amateur artist trying to hold on to some ridiculous concept that only they're truely having "fun" and truely making "Art" because that's all they have to hold on to. When really, as I said before, it takes much more audacity to leap out in the public eye and say "HEY, THIS IS ME, THIS IS MY MUSIC AND YOU'LL LIKE IT SO MUCH YOU'LL PAY FOR IT".

Now sure, you CAN go out there and make clone music, just copy other successful formulas, which I will defend to the DEATH, that that doesn't make your music bad, however, perhaps boring, if not unoriginal.

HOWEVER, I think the underground is just as unoriginal, full of little pockets of people doing the exact same style and then sucking each others tallywackers and saying how cooler they are than the others.

But, if you REALLY thought your music was THAT good, you'd know everyone would be able to appreciate it, and you'd have no problem trying to take it as far as it could go.

Well sell out and creative is two words that can mean many diffirent things. But this is not what I was talking about, I said copy the old AND add something new. I think those walk by hand by hand I think that people want to listen to the familiar , something that may remind them their childhood or a beatiful memory but they want to be suprised as well, taken to places that they have not even imagined.

I dont think you can be very successful in any way without some form of originality.

What was talking about was this anxiety /pressure / limitations of the commercial viability of your music. Especially if you are a person drawn by fame like many big names out there are. You are constantly on your toes that what you make must appeal to a large audiance.

I cant see how a pro can avoid this reality. Its what he does.

I can start a track or an album , and tommorow when i dont feel like make a decision to stop making music for a year just to charge my batteries. This year i may make electronic music, the next latin and the year after that , chruch music. Its a luxury that really gives you freedom to evolve in way that you will never be able to do as a pro. This ulimited freedom is a wonderful feeling maybe even more wonderful than being worshiped by a million fans, or maybe not.

But then being a pro , having a real carier can really put a purpose in your life, a sense of accomplishment and of course give you the motive to totally dedicate yourself in your art and that cant be bad in any way.

[newguy1]

Originally Posted by kilon

You are constantly on your toes that what you make must appeal to a large audiance.

I cant see how a pro can avoid this reality. Its what he does.

Yes, the pro approaches music from the perspective of "how do I write the hugest song possible that will affect the most people's lives within the styles of music I enjoy making."

The hobbiest is "I just do whatever I like and so long as I like it I'm good."

To me, the best music ALWAYS comes from the pro. Make love to your audience with your music, don't masturbate for your own pleasure and self-gratification.

[Eric J]

You can always tell a rookie producer when they start throwing terms around like "pro". As if there is some invisible line out there that one crosses going from "amateur" to "pro".

[newguy1]

Originally Posted by Eric J

You can always tell a rookie producer when they start throwing terms around like "pro". As if there is some invisible line out there that one crosses going from "amateur" to "pro".

There's a very clear line between pro and amateur, that extends across every single craft and trade out there: a large fanbase and financial success. If you're not living off your music, you're an amateur by dictionary definition. Once you're living off your music, there are then varying levels of professional success. "Amateurs," who participate in something for no other reason than personal enjoyment, have a completely different mindset than "professionals," who participate for personal gain.

I'd say the rookie is the one who can't see the difference.

[Eric J]

Originally Posted by newguy1

There's a very clear line between pro and amateur, that extends across every single craft and trade out there: a large fanbase and financial success. If you're not living off your music, you're an amateur by dictionary definition. Once you're living off your music, there are then varying levels of professional success. "Amateurs," who participate in something for no other reason than personal enjoyment, have a completely different mindset than "professionals," who participate for personal gain.

I'd say the rookie is the one who can't see the difference.

So if I'm a session musician that also has a day job, then by your definition, I'm not "pro"? Really?

[newguy1]

Originally Posted by Eric J

So if I'm a session musician that also has a day job, then by your definition, I'm not "pro"? Really?

The term for a not-so-successful person (or someone who's area of expertise, even at the highest level, doesn't pay much, like session musicians) trying to earn a living at a trade is "semi-pro." You can be an expert and not a pro.

All of this is beside the point. . the difference between pro and amateur is in the mindset and approach, not skill level. An amateur with amazing skills writing music entirely for himself will still, 98 times out of 100, be less successful than a pro with decent skills writing music in order to connect with others.

[Eric J]

First you say this:

Originally Posted by newguy1

There's a very clear line between pro and amateur, that extends across every single craft and trade out there: a large fanbase and financial success.

then you say this:

Originally Posted by newguy1

the difference between pro and amateur is in the mindset and approach, not skill level.

So which is it? Is the difference between "amateur" and "pro":

a). Money and fans, as you say in your first statement
or
b). Mindset as you say in your second statement?

Seems contradictory.

What if I'm not making money but I'm approaching my music with a "pro" mindset (whatever that means)? Which am I? Amateur or Pro?

What if I'm making money but I'm but I'm approaching my music with an amateur mindset (again, whatever that means)? Which am I? Amateur or Pro?

Originally Posted by newguy1

If you're not living off your music, you're an amateur by dictionary definition.
Once you're living off your music, there are then varying levels of professional success.

So basically its all about the money, then? Money doesn't make you a "pro". There are plenty of "professional" musicians with the skills that are flat broke out there. Do they become "pro" once they cross this invisible money threshold then not become "pro" once they fall underneath it?

Originally Posted by newguy1

"Amateurs," who participate in something for no other reason than personal enjoyment, have a completely different mindset than "professionals," who participate for personal gain.

So where is the musician who does this all day long but hasn't "made it" yet. (once again, whatever that means). Is he "pro"?

Originally Posted by newguy1

I'd say the rookie is the one who can't see the difference.

No, rookies are the ones who throw around meaningless terms in a vein attempt to explain pie-in-the-sky concepts.

Originally Posted by newguy1

An amateur with amazing skills writing music entirely for himself will still, 98 times out of 100, be less successful than a pro with decent skills writing music in order to connect with others.

So its not about skill for you its about "connecting with others"?

I can write crappy music all day long and as long as I'm "connecting with others", then I'm "pro" by your definition?

Listen, all I'm saying is that the term "pro" is meaningless. Its a generic term used to describe a state that simply does not exist. There is no magic line, no magic threshold, its just a generic term that means nothing. Rookies love to throw around the term because they actually believe their heroes are "pro", but in reality their heroes are just people like everyone else trying to make it in a ****ed up business. That's really all it is and once you get close to this business you learn that real quick.

So, that's it...

[newguy1]

Originally Posted by Eric J

So which is it? Is the difference between "amateur" and "pro":

a). Money and fans, as you say in your first statement
or
b). Mindset as you say in your second statement?

The mindset of connecting with people through your work leads to fans and making money. Statistical outliers (grey areas) of course exist in all things, but in general this is the case.

Originally Posted by Eric J

So basically its all about the money, then?

Yes, the "pros" are the ones living off their music. That's the definition of what being "pro" means.

Originally Posted by Eric J

Do they become "pro" once they cross this invisible money threshold then not become "pro" once they fall underneath it?

Yep. You're a professional musician when you're living off your music. You may have had a run as a pro musician, but if you're currently bagging groceries to pay the bills, you're a grocery bagger.

Originally Posted by Eric J

There are plenty of "professional" musicians with the skills that are flat broke out there.

Nope. The skill in being "pro" is having the ability to express yourself in ways that other people want to pay you money for. Musical ability is only one factor in this, so yes, you can have all the skills and not be "pro."

Originally Posted by Eric J

So where is the musician who does this all day long but hasn't "made it" yet. (once again, whatever that means). Is he "pro"?

I'd call him an aspiring professional musician. He's pro when its his full time career.

Originally Posted by Eric J

I can write crappy music all day long and as long as I'm "connecting with others", then I'm "pro" by your definition?

If you're living off your music, which requires connecting with others, then yes you're a pro, regardless of how good or bad some may view it to be.

Originally Posted by Eric J

That's really all it is and once you get close to this business you learn that real quick.

I currently have productions in the billboard charts you've probably heard (and hate no doubt) and haven't had a 2nd job in five years. I see who's successful and who's not and analyze the reasons why all the time watching different guys rise and fall off around me. I know what I'm talking about.

[Jeeroj]

way to ruin a thread you two *slow clap*

[Eric J]

Originally Posted by newguy1

The mindset of connecting with people through your work leads to fans and making money. Statistical outliers (grey areas) of course exist in all things, but in general this is the case.



Yes, the "pros" are the ones living off their music. That's the definition of what being "pro" means.



Yep. You're a professional musician when you're living off your music. You may have had a run as a pro musician, but if you're currently bagging groceries to pay the bills, you're a grocery bagger.



Nope. The skill in being "pro" is having the ability to express yourself in ways that other people want to pay you money for. Musical ability is only one factor in this, so yes, you can have all the skills and not be "pro."



I'd call him an aspiring professional musician. He's pro when its his full time career.



If you're living off your music, which requires connecting with others, then yes you're a pro, regardless of how good or bad some may view it to be.

OK, well I don't measure a "pro" by how much money he or she makes.

Originally Posted by newguy1

I currently have productions in the billboard charts you've probably heard (and hate no doubt) and haven't had a 2nd job in five years. I see who's successful and who's not and analyze the reasons why all the time watching different guys rise and fall off around me. I know what I'm talking about.

Haha, Yeah, right.

[Eric J]

Originally Posted by Jeeroj

way to ruin a thread you two *slow clap*

This thread was ruined long before I got here.

[Praxisaxis]

I've said something like this in lots of threads:

You're best just to focus on your own sound, and make music you are interested in making.

This is because:

1) Even if you try your best to make music you think a popular audience will like, even when this is at the expense of your own artistic inclination, it does not guarantee you'll make a hit tune - far from it.
1.a.) There's really no formula for going from unknown to popular & commercial success, however it may sometimes seem that there is.
1.b.) Even if you think you've nailed that "formula", the sound your making is probably still not quite what you originally had in mind, because even with loads of experience music is always very hit and miss.
1.c.) You might think practicing "selling out" for years will mitigate the above and thus eventually deliver success; instead these things happen:
1.c.i.) You get older, grayer and less charismatic.
1.c.ii.) If you were ever close to nailing it, after a while times change, trends fluctuate, and you lose touch.
1.c.iii.) Worst of all, you spend so many years sacrificing your own unique sound in the ambition to become successful, not only do you fail at finding commercial success but you never even achieve your own sound.

2) Finding your own sound, and making your own artistic choices is highly rewarding.

3.a.) Finding your own sound does not preclude the possibility of commercial success
3.b.) These days (in this new decade) finding your own sound probably increases your chances of at least small-scale commercial success.

I'm not speaking from personal experience but I have certainly seen a few friends go down this road. They purposefully go about trying to make a hit record (one band I knew even put together a business plan, and at the end of it was written "commercial success" or some such). Many of them start with the rather condescending notion that they're skilled musicians, therefore making pop music will be easy. Wrong!! :-)

[drumdrumdrumdrum]

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Ham]

too busy doing me to worry about labels and boxes.

[MACH4]

Originally Posted by certifiedhumane

i mean think about it, all of these club tracks coming out these days sound the same to us because we are into the deeper, true-er house tunes so we can really tell when something sounds rushed or like it was made in a mainstream "factory" so what if one of us decided to push that envelope and really craft a truly "good" house track and see if one of the mainstream artists would take it . .

Lets hear your best work.

You don't know me, so take this as an opportunity or leave it.

[kikumotoallstars]

Do charts matter now that kids are 'buying' music anymore? I think we are all underground now which isn't a bad thing because the goal returns to just make good music rather than being number one.

K

[atma]

Originally Posted by Praxisaxis

I've said something like this in lots of threads:

You're best just to focus on your own sound, and make music you are interested in making.

This is because:

1) Even if you try your best to make music you think a popular audience will like, even when this is at the expense of your own artistic inclination, it does not guarantee you'll make a hit tune - far from it.
1.a.) There's really no formula for going from unknown to popular & commercial success, however it may sometimes seem that there is.
1.b.) Even if you think you've nailed that "formula", the sound your making is probably still not quite what you originally had in mind, because even with loads of experience music is always very hit and miss.
1.c.) You might think practicing "selling out" for years will mitigate the above and thus eventually deliver success; instead these things happen:
1.c.i.) You get older, grayer and less charismatic.
1.c.ii.) If you were ever close to nailing it, after a while times change, trends fluctuate, and you lose touch.
1.c.iii.) Worst of all, you spend so many years sacrificing your own unique sound in the ambition to become successful, not only do you fail at finding commercial success but you never even achieve your own sound.

2) Finding your own sound, and making your own artistic choices is highly rewarding.

3.a.) Finding your own sound does not preclude the possibility of commercial success
3.b.) These days (in this new decade) finding your own sound probably increases your chances of at least small-scale commercial success.

I'm not speaking from personal experience but I have certainly seen a few friends go down this road. They purposefully go about trying to make a hit record (one band I knew even put together a business plan, and at the end of it was written "commercial success" or some such). Many of them start with the rather condescending notion that they're skilled musicians, therefore making pop music will be easy. Wrong!! :-)