General Questions on Drum Machines

[Gringo Starr]

I've acquired some synths in the past year and now I'm waning to get a drum machine next. Then a sequencer and a sampler... Before I go out and spend more money I want to make sure I know enough to make a good decision. And that's where your opinions come in. I have a few questions.

1.) Does the same level of the analog vs. digital argument over synths also apply to analog drum machines vs drum programs?

2.) I'm considering the Dave Smith Tempest. And let's assume it sounds great. Lets say it sounds just as good if not better than the Roland 808(just for the sake of my question). For that price tag is it worth it in a way that it will get me better quality sounds than any software or is it more of a luxury? I will be using this for studio recording only.

3.) What drum programs get the most praise? I have BFD and I thought it sucked big time. I also have EZ-Drummer and it's much better than BFD but still not great.

BTW I use Logic if that makes any difference. And I don't just want rock drum sounds. I like some of the drum sounds of bands like BOC and Daft Punk.

Thanks in advance for any opinions you might share. :-)

And if anyone has any sound samples of a good analog machine and software feel more than free to share them. I'd love to hear 'em.

[Dubtek71]

Hi Gringo,

There is a drum machine built into logic, I have forgotten the name at the moment. It's in the AU/plug section. Alternately you could use the ESX24 as a drum sampler.

1) I guess that argument rages on. Its not a concern for as I use a 909.

2) Better quality is a subjective thing really.

3) Konrakt and that d16 seem to get a lot of love round here.

Sorry I can't provide a more detailed answer as I am at work now. I check back later and see what if any other questions you have that I may be able to answer.

D

[Akh]

The answer to each of your questions is highly dependent on what you're interested in achieving with percussion in your music.

What genres of music will you be working on?

What sort of rhythms are you interested in utilizing?

What sort of sound do you want to achieve with your percussion?

Will you be performing live, in the studio, or both?

Is there a chance you’ll be collaborating with others, who may use your gear?

In what way do you need percussion to synchronize to the other instruments in your music?

Do you need the ability to tune each percussion element to virtually any note?

Until you’ve got a better idea of what you want from the percussion in your music, I don’t think it’s possible to accurately answer the questions you’re asking. For what it's worth, I've got a TR-909, TR-808, TR-727, CR-78, R8 MKII, Stretch DX, TOM, and use a variety of software from trackers to BFD, and in my opinion there are advantages and disadvantages to each. You've mentioned the Dave Smith Tempest, which although I have not used strikes me as a drum machine with a lot of potential, that in the right setup could easily work well as the sole percussion machine.

[birdloveskitten]

i'm a big fan of NI Maschine for the hardware/software route/integration. been using that setup w/logic pretty seemlessly. Maschine comes with a nice variety of soundsets, and it's easy to work in different plug-ins, if that's you're thing.... for natural drums I like addictive drums and bfd, otherwise i use the soundsets from maschine, or load up some random samples i've collected...

if you're looking for hardware take a look at the akai mpc series, or maybe the elektron octotrak. these specific hardware drum machines doesn't have any inherent sounds, it's more based on the samples you load in.

[Heathfinnie]

Yeah, I was going to suggest an MPC1000 or 2500... Can be used as a drum machine, sampler and sequencer all in one...

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by Gringo Starr

1.) Does the same level of the analog vs. digital argument over synths also apply to analog drum machines vs drum programs?

Yes. People will argue about this shit until they're blue in the face.

There are several iconic drum machines. There are several iconic synthesizers. There are a lot of forgettable ones.

An 808 and a LinnDrum are respected, even though the latter is not analog. Few people care about a Boss DR660.

Both the JP8 and the JD800 are respected, even though the latter is not analog. Few people care about a Roland D10.

2.) I'm considering the Dave Smith Tempest. And let's assume it sounds great. Lets say it sounds just as good if not better than the Roland 808(just for the sake of my question). For that price tag is it worth it in a way that it will get me better quality sounds than any software or is it more of a luxury? I will be using this for studio recording only.

This is impossible to answer, really. Perhaps it's going to be easier to answer when it's released, but until then, all of this is completely hypothetical.

It still has to prove its worth. It still has to prove that it sounds good. It still has to prove that the sequencer is awesome in various ways, and you'll always have the cantankerous octogenarians complaining that it isn't as good as the old stuff.

3.) What drum programs get the most praise? I have BFD and I thought it sucked big time. I also have EZ-Drummer and it's much better than BFD but still not great.

A plugin like that is merely a convenient interface for what's in essence a software sampler.

Why not just use EXS to build your custom drumkits? As long as each sample spans a single key, you'll essentially have something similar - perhaps not with the nifty pre-programmed rolls or rudiments, but if you're looking for DP or BOC drums that's not going to be any concern anyway.

[Zombie H]

I really liked the BFD 8-Bit Kit

Have you ever tried out a machinedrum? Thats prolly what im going to get for a drum machine

[3phase]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

This is impossible to answer, really. Perhaps it's going to be easier to answer when it's released, but until then, all of this is completely hypothetical.

Considering the works of Roger Linn and Dave Smith its not really hyphothetical...

[Eutoxita]

Unless you're really fanatical about the original sounds, I'd use samples (and the debates are def out of control in both directions on this one).

On the other hand, the drum machine mistique is also partly about the feel of the programming. I'm not talking swing settings, etc. It's kind of a ghost in the machine kind of thing. For example, I have an Akai MPC2000 and beats programmed on it feel different than the same exact pattern (and same exact samples...) in my Beatscape program.

[3phase]

Originally Posted by Eutoxita

Unless you're really fanatical about the original sounds, I'd use samples (and the debates are def out of control in both directions on this one).

On the other hand, the drum machine mistique is also partly about the feel of the programming. I'm not talking swing settings, etc. It's kind of a ghost in the machine kind of thing. For example, I have an Akai MPC2000 and beats programmed on it feel different than the same exact pattern (and same exact samples...) in my Beatscape program.

The typical in the box beat starts..and goes on and on and on and on and on...

the typical drum machine beat does this and that ..and a break here and there.. its most definitely the user interface that leads to the results here..and that another person can join in on a session ..a drum machine is a workstation in itself..that can be more fun than watching the monitor together...

[DEAFCON]

Originally Posted by Dubtek71

There is a drum machine built into logic, I have forgotten the name at the moment. It's in the AU/plug section. Alternately you could use the ESX24 as a drum sampler.

D

UltraBeat - which people seem to be wary of. Does the job fine for simple(r) programming + you can load samples / tweak the synth parameters.

Since you've already got it - should at least try it out before dropping $600 on Maschine or a Tempest. At least.

[Bumply]

Ultrabeat isn't bad at all. Just buy a nice pack if samples and load em up.

If you're not into ultrabeat, check out numerology.

The sound issue is all subjective. Samples do the job just fine.

[TheArk]

Just get battery 3 with an mpd.
I have an mpd but it just gets in the way of my workflow. I just trigger everything with a midi keyboard. Some people SWEAR by the drum machine and thats cool since i seen many cats ONLY use a drum
Machine making dope shit lol. Just know what you want and your workflow

[djshire]

Ultrabeat is good, but not great. I'd say its one of the weak points on Logic tool set.

Now, if you truly care enough about drum synthesis....make your own. I did it in Logics ES2...a drum, a tom tom, a snare, and a hi-hat. Not really advanced or special kind of sounds, but they work well, can be tweaked a bunch, and are good starting points for my future productions.

Another thing to look into for drum synthesis is Rob Papens Punch.

[Praxisaxis]

Here are some capacities that I'd be wanting, ideally, in any drum machine

* independent outputs (snare, bass, hh etc, all on their own channel)

* the ability to change the nature of a sound at any stage in the mix. If you want to increase the "snap" of a kick drum (ie the hi freq transient at the beginning of its strike), you should be able to adjust this even at the end of the mixing process. This is an advantage of a drum synth (like a machinedrum) over something which only does samples (like an electribe, for example).

* something which is capable of producing really low bass sounds (even though you'll use them judiciously or sometimes not at all). Kick synths and samples vary greatly in this regard.

The rest is all personal taste with regard to sounds, workflow, etc. But in my opinion: if you are after ultra-realistic drum sounds, remember you won't ever quite get it right unless you record an actual drummer playing a real kit. If not that, then sample libraries - not a drum machine - are the best bet.

But that's ok because drum machines are usually valued for their own unique, artificial sound. This is entirely true even of those which make use of samples.

Or even consider getting two items which complement each other - it's not too expensive to pick up a new analogue machine - say an MFB, or even a monotribe - and an old digital machine like a Yamaha RX5 (which I really want to get my hands on actually).

[tonemaker]

Buy the drum, sample it to death, and sell it.

Drum machines are nearly obsolete. Software samplers is where it's at.

[Praxisaxis]

Buy the drum, sample it to death, and sell it.

I know this is the approach that many people take but I think it misses the whole point of a dedicated drum synth.

The key advantage of a drum synth is that you can fundamentally alter the sound, in its generative phase, as little or as much as you want. Once you sample it it is concrete. Of course you can change it with signal processing at this point, but a drum synth offers purpose-built sound design at the initial phase, which can be altered at any stage of the mix with ease.

The example I offered before was to tweak the snap of a kickdrum. This is tremendously easy and second nature to do on a machine drum, with nearly limitless options. Once you sample it you lose that facility; you can still alter the sound but not at that level, with such ease.

[boon]

imo the thing you should be thinking about most in a drum machine (other than sound) is the interface and sequencer.. usability.. is it a fun piece of gear?

the thing with drum machines is the hands on aspect of them. that can be really fun and inspiring and lead to new places. having separate outs.. like 6-8 is helpful... but if you don't like the interface and actually using the thing then it doesn't matter how many features and outputs etc it has because you won't want to use it.

i use drum machines from time to time.. and use software etc.. different tools can lead to different methods/different sounds/patterns etc.. so, i think it's good to mix it up once in a while.

[Dubtek71]

I completely agree with people are saying about user interface. For
Me it's a high priority. It's part of why I love the 909 and one of the main reasons I bought my Cirklon. Without the Novation Remote I would like sell my Microwave in favor of something with knobs.

Really, at the end of the day you should be enjoying what you are doing otherwise you may as well just go to the beach!

[DSK]

Originally Posted by Praxisaxis

The example I offered before was to tweak the snap of a kickdrum. This is tremendously easy and second nature to do on a machine drum, with nearly limitless options. Once you sample it you lose that facility; you can still alter the sound but not at that level, with such ease.

I use Nerve for that. It has a resynthesis engine that uses a bunch of precalc algorithms including snap (that can add snap or take it away) that is very useful when you have a nice kick sample that lacks in that department.
It also has a sine algorithm that can substract only the sinewave so you can get a clean round kick drum from some dirty samples.

But yes a dedicated machine is recommended. I would love a Tempest with hands on control but especially for creating new sounds!

[zerocrossing]

I've had a love/hate relationship with drum machines or "grooveboxes" or even "workstation" instruments over the years. While they have some "hands on" interface advantages, they ultimately fail when they go up against anything that has a 19" LCD monitor.

So, Maschine and Spark offer a work-around to that by giving you the interface of a hardware drum machine coupled with the editing features of a DAW. I own Maschine and demoed Spark as a plug in. Maschine won for sound hands down for me, though it's anemic "song mode" is kind of unforgivable considering it's price and the fact that it's not tethered to being hardware only.

Both of the above use samples, though Spark also has a synth engine that I found unimpressive. The point is that if an analog machine can make a sound, both of those solutions can make it as well, via a sample. However, this will "break" when trying to do interesting things like modulating aspects of the sounds in real time. Nothing reacts to that like a real analog filter or effects section.

Having said that, there are a lot of software drum machines that I think do kick ass jobs. The very cheap Waldorf Attack is excellent, as is mDrummer (Samples and synth) Drumaxx, Ironhead, Axon, Microtonic and Extreme Drumsynth are all ones I own that I think are great. I think the D16 ones are good too, but frankly I try to avoid those "classic" drum machine sounds as they're too overused IMO.

So... do I want a Tempest or other all analog drum synth? You bet I do. However, I cancelled my Tempest preorder and ended up getting a NS/Stick (string instrument) instead. I realized that with my other DSI synths I can get at least part of the way there and I've already had great results making drum sounds on my MoPho and sampling them in Maschine. It's good enough for me.

Anyway, things like Korg electribes... I guess cool if you need something with decent sound to use live sans-computer, but like all VA I feel it's been equaled in software in terms of sound and dedicated hardware/software systems like Maschine and Spark make more sense.

[giorgio]

Get an 808

[kvmoore]

Originally Posted by zerocrossing

So... do I want a Tempest or other all analog drum synth? You bet I do. However, I cancelled my Tempest preorder and ended up getting a NS/Stick (string instrument) instead. I realized that with my other DSI synths I can get at least part of the way there and I've already had great results making drum sounds on my MoPho and sampling them in Maschine. It's good enough for me.

Hi. I was considering saving up for a Tempest myself. However, it's way beyond what I will be able to afford anytime soon. Therefore, I was thinking of getting something like a Mopho or Tetra as an alternative for drum synthesis for right now.

I also have a real 808. However, what I want to accomplish with the Mopho is to be able to recreate the 808's bassdrum and be able to play it chromatically accross the keyboard as well as be able to tweak various other paramters. Basically, I'm talking about a more flexible 808 bassdrum. Is the Mopho capable of this? If so, the Mopho together with the TR808 would be a very dangerous combination for subs!!!!!

[BM0]

The Tempest sequencer looks to be very fun and productive to program. From the videos out there, it looks to have both the benefits of a TR-style step sequencer plus the nice MPC drum pads. The two ribbon controllers also seem to be able to do some interesting stuff. With that, you also get DSI analog synthesis, with both digital and analog oscillators, builtin distortion and compression. It will be a nice bonus if they add the ability to load custom samples, but that isn't a deal breaker for me. I pre-ordered a Tempest and am pretty excited get one in my hands.

[Jomox]

Tempest looks like it could be the one to go for, looks very promising.

Avoid stuff like Maschine and Spark, they are just controllers for software, not actual drum machines.

[3phase]

Originally Posted by astroidmist

Buy the drum, sample it to death, and sell it.

Drum machines are nearly obsolete. Software samplers is where it's at.

In the 30 years samplers are on the market they havent made drummachines obsolete... What makes you think that this will happen now ?

A drum machine is what separates a man from a boy

[PapiBlack]

Originally Posted by 3phase

In the 30 years samplers are on the market they havent made drummachines obsolete... What makes you think that this will happen now ?

A drum machine is what separates a man from a boy

Some would argue drum machines have been obsolete for the last 20 years.

[kvmoore]

Originally Posted by PapiBlack

Some would argue drum machines have been obsolete for the last 20 years.

....And to add to that, some would also argue that hardware in general is obsolete. I definitely see this thread turning into another hardware vs. software debate.

[cdog]

Originally Posted by Jomox

Tempest looks like it could be the one to go for, looks very promising.

Avoid stuff like Maschine and Spark, they are just controllers for software, not actual drum machines.

But what if they offer a level of control you dont get on most drum machines?

That X-Y pad on the Spark is hot man, its like having a Kaoss Pad built into your drum machine... but things that are software you do have to be wary with, because if Arturia goes under or decides to make Spark 2 or NI makes Machine 2, forget using your Spark or Machine on Windows 8! Which means, it will become essentially a paperweight, unless you keep a dedicated Win7 machine to run it!

Dont think these manufacturers are oblivious to this...

If you buy a real 808, it will probably keep pace with inflation. Try doing that with Spark!

[Bumply]

Originally Posted by Jomox

Tempest looks like it could be the one to go for, looks very promising.

Avoid stuff like Maschine and Spark, they are just controllers for software, not actual drum machines.

Maschine can be had for 300 bucks used, so id say it is worth considering.