Which synths have the fastest LFO rates?

[dhollmusik]

...and how can you tell from the specifications alone?

I've had loads of synths during these last couple of years of ultra gearsluttiness, and the cheapest of all, the Korg Monotron, remains the one with the fastest and snappiest LFO rate (at least to my ears).

What are your candidates?

[Llitsor]

Yes, the monotron is fast!
The LFO's on my Doepfer MS 404 & Dark Energy also go well into the audio spectrum.

[RobJB06]

Sadly almost all LFO's on monosynths never go fast enough.
Cant really think of any exceptions really..
The Korg PS3100 has a fantastic really fast LFO, not a monosynth but thought id mention it anyway!

[danielb]

The MFB Microzwerg has 2 absolutely insanely fast LFOs.

[shadowfac]

Modulars where you can use VCOs as LFOs.

But, yeah, the Monotron LFO is cool.

[CfNorENa]

I think the Jupiter 4 has a famously fast LFO.

Of synths I own, I think the Mono/Poly is probably fastest. Problem is, I can't get it to go SLOW enough. Anything past 1 is just too fast for a good, slow LFO. Another reason I prefer the Polysix...

[dhollmusik]

Originally Posted by Llitsor

Yes, the monotron is fast!
The LFO's on my Doepfer MS 404 & Dark Energy also go well into the audio spectrum.

Yes! Good to know. I sold my MS-404 and replaced it with a Dark Energy, which is still to arrive. I expect the Dark Energy to be like what the Monotron could have been (midi, better outputs, semi-modular, more knobbage).

Which is faster? The 404 or the DE? I remember the 404 as fast, but not quite on Monotron-level.

If Monotron really is a benchmark, perhaps the MS-10/20 is among the frontrunners.

[2pulse]

Minimoog.

[maisonvague]

Originally Posted by CfNorENa

I think the Jupiter 4 has a famously fast LFO.

Right you are! The Jupiter-4 and Promars both have very fast audio rate LFOs which can get you into basic but wicked sounding analog FM territory.

[soundsubs]

dunno, my sh101 lfo has 3 rates: norm, slo, fast. and at fast, its--well-- faster than anything else ive got.
(super easy mod too)

no, it wont clock the sequencer at that range.

[Looping Loddar]

Originally Posted by dhollmusik

Yes! Good to know. I sold my MS-404 and replaced it with a Dark Energy, which is still to arrive. I expect the Dark Energy to be like what the Monotron could have been (midi, better outputs, semi-modular, more knobbage).

Good choice! Have fun!

Originally Posted by dhollmusik

Which is faster? The 404 or the DE? I remember the 404 as fast, but not quite on Monotron-level.

Both came with LFOs up to 5 Khz. I prefer the DE.

Originally Posted by dhollmusik

If Monotron really is a benchmark, perhaps the MS-10/20 is among the frontrunners.

Sorry, no.

NI FM7/FM8: Loop the fast envelopes - and you can get audio speed LFOs
Waldorf Q series: up to 2600 Hz
MOTM-320 Voltage-Controlled LFO: up to 2800 Hz
Future Retro XS: 3 Khz
Microzwerg: If LFO 2 gets externally modulated it could speed up with factor 30!
Curetronic modules: their LFO modules can be very fast
Micro modular: can use OSCs as LFOs
Vermona PerFourmer MK II: fast enough even for your cat!

(my cat really is interested in electronic music and in high speed LFOs)

Oh, and the following PerFourmer MkII patch is mainly the sound of the LFOs! All sound variations came from the LFOs and noodling one LFO knob (of a very weird patch made by me) - drums are Acidlab Miami:

[Jim Stout]

A DX7....

[dhollmusik]

Originally Posted by Jim Stout

A DX7....

No way...I had a DX7 and played often with its LFO...Monotron is much faster.

Originally Posted by Looping Loddar

Waldorf Q series: up to 2600 Hz
MOTM-320 Voltage-Controlled LFO: up to 2800 Hz
Future Retro XS: 3 Khz
Microzwerg: If LFO 2 gets externally modulated it could speed up with factor 30!
Curetronic modules: their LFO modules can be very fast
Micro modular: can use OSCs as LFOs
Vermona PerFourmer MK II: fast enough even for your cat!

Does Hz mean speed? I only know Hz as a measurement of aural frequency response.

The measurement we really want is one we all understand...like bpm, or better: lfops (LFO's-per-second).

[Jim Stout]

Originally Posted by dhollmusik

No way...I had a DX7 and played often with its LFO...Monotron is much faster.




Does Hz mean speed? I only know Hz as a measurement of aural frequency response.

The measurement we really want is one we all understand...like bpm, or better: lfops (LFO's-per-second).

It's an FM joke... I wan't being serious.

[dhollmusik]

Originally Posted by Jim Stout

It's an FM joke... I wan't being serious.

oh...what's the joke? Is FM known as having painfully slow LFO's?


here's a (probably painful) tune i made where the DX7's LFO speed-setting played a big part:

solemnity | dholl

[Christophocles]

Moog Voyager hands down, seeing as you can use the 3rd oscillator as a modulation source through the whole spectrum: the LFO range all the way to audio frequency range. Just flip the keyboard control of the 3rd oscillators frequency off, toss it on LO, and use it as a modulation source. Boom!

[vibralux]

The word is: S E R G E Kills my Voyager in that matter, not to mention few other areas. It can go all the way up to the audio range, so sometimes it is hard to say if it is yet an LFO or an oscillator, or something in between.

[ShanghaiFire]

Originally Posted by dhollmusik

Does Hz mean speed? I only know Hz as a measurement of aural frequency response.

The measurement we really want is one we all understand...like bpm, or better: lfops (LFO's-per-second).

Hertz (Hz) = cycles per second.....5k hz = 5000 cycles per second. Pretty standard unit of measurement.

[dhollmusik]

Originally Posted by ShanghaiFire

Hertz (Hz) = cycles per second.....5k hz = 5000 cycles per second. Pretty standard unit of measurement.

Thanks, I didn't know that. I guess I should have made the connection as PC monitors have Hz ratings.

[Looping Loddar]

Originally Posted by dhollmusik

Does Hz mean speed? I only know Hz as a measurement of aural frequency response.

Yes.
0.001 Hz = extremely low speed - a full cycle need an quarter of an hour
0.01 Hz = very low speed - good analog synthesizer LFOs can be that slow
1 Hz = one complete cycle per second
20 Hz = good choice for vibrato or tremolo effects
250 Hz = low audio frequency - a lot of Moog synthesizers have LFOs with a frequency range up to 250 Hz
2 Khz/2000 Hz = audio frequency - if you route a 2 KHz or 5 KHz LFO to filter cutoff modulation this could sound insane weird, even vocal sounds are possible - as a user of the doepfer MS 404 you should know this phenomenon
50 Khz = your cat can hear this without any problem! Maybe some insects are waiting to get eaten by your cat. It is also helpful for a cat to locate moving food (flys, mouses, rats, thrown mortadella, very small dogs).

[dhollmusik]

Originally Posted by Looping Loddar

Yes.
0.001 Hz = extremely low speed - a full cycle need an quarter of an hour
0.01 Hz = very low speed - good analog synthesizer LFOs can be that slow
1 Hz = one complete cycle per second
20 Hz = good choice for vibrato or tremolo effects
250 Hz = low audio frequency - a lot of Moog synthesizers have LFOs with a frequency range up to 250 Hz
2 Khz/2000 Hz = audio frequency - if you route a 2 KHz or 5 KHz LFO to filter cutoff modulation this could sound insane weird, even vocal sounds are possible - as a user of the doepfer MS 404 you should know this phenomenon
50 Khz = your cat can hear this without any problem! Maybe some insects are waiting to get eaten by your cat. It is also helpful for a cat to locate moving food (flys, mouses, rats, thrown mortadella, very small dogs).

Great! This is very useful, thanks. Did Korg release the maximum LFO rate for the Monotron? I looked at Korg's specsheet but they don't say very much.

[silent5]

The CS-15 and the Alpha Junos have pretty fast LFOs. Nowhere near Monotron fast, but fast enough to set them apart from other machines.

[Looping Loddar]

Originally Posted by dhollmusik

Great! This is very useful, thanks. Did Korg release the maximum LFO rate for the Monotron? I looked at Korg's specsheet but they don't say very much.

What about an upload of a small, instructive Monotron example with medium and maximum LFO rate for our community?

Then i will tell you the maximum LFO rate for the monotron.

[Dave Peck]

Originally Posted by Looping Loddar

Yes.
0.001 Hz = extremely low speed - a full cycle need an quarter of an hour
0.01 Hz = very low speed - good analog synthesizer LFOs can be that slow
1 Hz = one complete cycle per second
20 Hz = good choice for vibrato or tremolo effects
250 Hz = low audio frequency - a lot of Moog synthesizers have LFOs with a frequency range up to 250 Hz
2 Khz/2000 Hz = audio frequency - if you route a 2 KHz or 5 KHz LFO to filter cutoff modulation this could sound insane weird, even vocal sounds are possible - as a user of the doepfer MS 404 you should know this phenomenon
50 Khz = your cat can hear this without any problem! Maybe some insects are waiting to get eaten by your cat. It is also helpful for a cat to locate moving food (flys, mouses, rats, thrown mortadella, very small dogs).

This is some good info with the exception of the idea of using 20Hz for vibrato or tremolo. Most vibrato or tremolo effects would be much slower, more like 4 Hz to 8 Hz. Using 20 Hz would sound more like a growl or a blur than a vibrato effect.

[Looping Loddar]

Originally Posted by silent5

The CS-15 and the Alpha Junos have pretty fast LFOs. Nowhere near Monotron fast, but fast enough to set them apart from other machines.

+1

Additionally it is easy to mod a CS Synth LFO to get as high as 5 Khz! If i do remember right the Yamaha CS-5 is having the fastest LFO of the CS series. It is also important to have the right filter (e.g. vactrols won't work), good modulation options and a high quality OSCs to get the best results from high speed LFOs.

These are big advantages for the Dark Energy, the Microzwerg, the Serge and the Perfourmer MK II!

(a combination of the DE and the Microzwerg could be very funny and inspriring)

The coming Vermona PerFourmer MK II is a wild monster.

[Looping Loddar]

Originally Posted by Dave Peck

This is some good info with the exception of the idea of using 20Hz for vibrato or tremolo. Most vibrato or tremolo effects would be much slower, more like 4 Hz to 8 Hz. Using 20 Hz would sound more like a growl or a blur than a vibrato effect.

+ 1
You are right. It depends a bit on the modulation intensity. For my needs i prefer fast vibrato effects. 12 Hz or so.

[kreeper_6]

Yamaha CS-5, MC-202

[shaft9000]

VCOs that can be LFOs
but more accurately,

Serge Buchla Modcan Wiard and Cwejman get there.

It's a big part of the WestCoast design approach many aren't aware of, and was for a long time 'swept under the rug' by phase-modulation/FM techniques but has come back in the last 10 or so years as digital synths just can't do it in a very appealing way, typically. For that matter, most analogs can't neither. FM this wide-ranging has to be inherent in the design. Which is not easy as the VCO has to be somewhat stable, and it helps to be a balanced modulator (triangle core or quadrature osc).

VCOs from the others tend 'smear' the signals beyond much over 2-3kHz. Even my 2600 does this and it's better than Moog in this regard. It sounds 'nicer' but there's no way to pull all the clear clangs(not frazzled) and especially lovely linear-FM tones out of them, like you can in the already mentioned designs above.

I mean, just play with a ZerOscillator or Buchla or Serge for 5 minutes next to any Moog or Roland or whatever and you'll hear the difference and precision right away.
When I did it was like learning a few new letters in the alphabet that nobody told me about.

[dhollmusik]

Originally Posted by Looping Loddar

What about an upload of a small, instructive Monotron example with medium and maximum LFO rate for our community?

Then i will tell you the maximum LFO rate for the monotron.

Yes, I will...this thread definitely needs some audio examples.

[grumphh]

Originally Posted by Looping Loddar

Yes.

20 Hz = good choice for vibrato or tremolo effects
250 Hz = low audio frequency - a lot of Moog synthesizers have LFOs with a frequency range up to 250 Hz
2 Khz/2000 Hz = audio frequency -

Sorry, but already at 20 Hz we are at the lower limit of human hearing.
This is the point where a fast LFO suddenly changes character and instead of being a series of fast individual pulses becomes a tone by itself.

To give an example of low frequencies we all should know:
41 Hz is the fundamental of the E string on a standard tuned Bass guitar.
82 Hz is the fundamental of the low E string on a standard tuned guitar.

250 Hz is already considered lower mid range.

1 - 2 Khz is the midrange where the human ear is the most sensitive, because that is where most of the frequencies are in speech.
I'd guess that LFO FM experimentation in those ranges really cuts through

Not that many production synths do have LFO's that get into audio territory (i.e. 20 Hz and up), hence the JP-4's claim to fame on that account, and even that LFO does only go to appr. 80 Hz or so...
Still more than enough for some unique stuff that you can't get from other synths.

And yes, 20 Hz is way too fast for vibrato/tremolo effects IMO too