Noob question about kicks

[Whalez]

ok sorry if this is super stupid I've only been making music for about two months and my step brother has already taught me a bunch of stuff (like telling me about this forum!) and I'm not helpless either even highschoolers know how to use Google and YouTube lol so usually I just try to look everything up myself before I ask him for help but I can't figure this one out

everything I've read or watched or been taught about kicks is basicly you have 2 parts the thump low end and the kind of knock higher end and I guess the kick is kind of the balance between those

I also know you get a lot better results when u layer them so that you get the best properties of both parts so you can get the sound you want

My problem is they all seem to have to much knock, like the thump part is good but there is too much of the knock part, almost some times like there is a weak snare or clap already on it

So first I asked my step bro about it and he said to mess with the attack or the start time of the kick sample so you can just kind of almost cut it off the beginning of it or just eq the high/mid part out of it

Ok so I've tried both of those quite a bit the last few days but I still have problems the attack thing helps but then it kind of makes the kick lose its punch or if u go too far it sounds kind of out of rhythm as it plays in the beat

The eq thing also helped and actually I thougght it was the solution but then when I listen to it on stuff other than the studio speakers it sounds like the kick isn't even there which I have found out is because you need that knock part to make sure the kick punches through other frequencies and to make sure smalled speakers that can't do a lot of lows will still play the kick ok

I knows it possible because a lot of big artists like Chris lake and deadmau5 have kicks that you don't hear much knock on but they still punch through

What am I missing???

I don't have very much to use also I am no job/school/super poor and sorry I ain't a pirate so all I have is ableton suite and two synths sylenth and massive is this is what's holding me back?? Do I need a certain FX or something?

I'm gona buy the waves renisance pack (recommendes by my brother) hopefully within a month if that helps

I also (also because of being poor lol) don't have very many samples only the ones that came in ableton suite and a bunch of free ones I found from searching for like 2 days for any free samples I have also tried sampling kick drums from already recorded stuff but there is usually other drums on top of them and I also don't want to get in trouble ffor jacking someones stuff

So basicly I'm afraid that the reason I can't do it is because I don't have the rright software or hardware or samples but I'm HOPING it's cause I don't know how lol

[Mardi Gras]

im guessing the knock means the beater noise> Kicks normally exist in the low end and between 1-5Khz for the 'attack beater noise'.

He was right just use the envelop settings to lengthen the attack and EQ scoop between 1-5K that should leave you with pretty much just the bottom end.

[Nev]

An audio example would help. "Thump" means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

[Augsy]

try finding a kick that has lot of "knock" to begin with. If it has lots of knock but not enough sub bass you can reinforce the fundamental frequency with a sine wave. Layering kicks can be very time consuming, what with all the required eq and compression, you can make very nice kicks with just a single sample.

[chrisso]

'Knock' has middley connotations to me. Most kicks (real and electronic) have boom and smack, smack being a much clickier, high frequency tone IMO.

A great starting place is a good drum library - like Maschine, Battery or Nerve, but if you can't spring for that, I would find samples with mostly low thuddy content, then samples with more high frequency attack, then blend the two, with the hf sample being just audible usually.
Emphasize the hf by removing the middle and lower frequencies in that sample.

[Andy_bt]

I find kicks really hard to get right, to me it's a kind of trial and error thing.
Also listen to your kick in context, some hats on the top for example probably wouldn't be much of a problem once mixed...
So you could try the following:
- use a good sample wich is close to what you're looking for and then EQ and compress to taste
-layer several samples as you said, the sine waves work well to enhance subs
-use a pitched down sine wave with a very fast pitch envelope to synthesize the "beater" or the "click" or both
-mix a bit of all
parallel compression, multi-band compression or FX sometimes help
Have fun,
A.

[Whalez]

ok guys thank you so much first off

i ended up using a few of your tips especially the sine wave parts and got a lot closer to what i had been looking for

since someone asked for a sound example i just went ahead and finished the track i was on when you guys hooked me up with the tips so you can hear the kick i ended up with

http://soundcloud.com/whalez/depth

i really did get a lot closer to what i had been looking for, sorry for asking a stupid question but even though i think ive learned a ton about ableton in three months it was one thing that kept stumping me no matter what research i did on it i guess in the end its a good idea to ask people that know a lot more than you lol

thanks very much for helping me out

[Augsy]

if you end up layering a sine wave, a couple things to make sure of:

-make sure the sine is in the key of the song

-fine tune the volume env of the sine

-be very careful of phase issues, you may even want to invert the sine wave 180 to avoid this

[msl]

Dude if you've only been at this for 2 months, I really would not be worried about layering kicks, don't even go there. Just use great samples to begin with, Goldbady, Wave Alchemy. Even with their free packs you will find excellent kicks that need no work. Go to their sites and download all the demos, they have loads.

Your too early in this game to get stuck on stuff like that. And believe me its probably not the lack of a layered kick that is holding your music back. Spend your time learning to program, arrange, mix, compress, eq...


.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by msl

Your too early in this game to get stuck on stuff like that. And believe me its probably not the lack of a layered kick that is holding your music back. Spend your time learning to program, arrange, mix, compress, eq...

Good advice actually .

[Whalez]

Wow you guys rock I got the gold baby demos and some of it is already just straight better than what I already had with all the tweaks Ii posted about haha

I did already layer a sine wave from ableton analog on the kick in that track but here is my second question I just kept trying it on different low notes till it sounded right but how do I know if its in tune with the song do I use it on one of the same notes I did the melodies or bass with? The sine waves parts I mean

[msl]

Play it an octave or two higher so you can hear it properly, then transpose it back down.



.

[offki]

Yeah what MSL said, here are some more decent freebies, there's a lot on that site, most made for Live so you just double click the ALP and it does the rest.

Freebies

Easier to make a nice meal out of some good ingredients than try and make a load of stuff you fished out of a wheelie bin taste nice.

[Whalez]

the puremagnetik stuff is awesome how do you guys find out about this stuff? I did a bunch of Googling for free drum samples but never saw any of these but could have skipped them on accident dunno

Another question too what I've been doing since basicly this thread started is after I have my layers with either the samples or also with sine waves how I like them I make a new channel and record all the layers too it so its like one new kick sample so when I use the compressor and eq its just on the one but do you think its wise to be doing that or should I leave it all seperate I thought about doing both cause I've made like 5 kicks now and after I recorded them like that I just saved it to my own little folder but should I save them sepwrate too so I can go back and tweak again if needed? Just seems like a lot of organizing if I do it both ways not that that's a big problem I guess just wondering your thoughts

Got another track working using some gold baby stuff too hoprfuly I can finish it soon and show you

Last thing in reference to the tuning part I can you tell in the track I posted in this thread if thr sine part of the kick is in tune right? I didn't transpose it cause I really didn't know about that last night when I finished it but I did mess with the nnotes on the sine till it sounded right im just not sure if what's sounds right to me is actually in tune

Thanks again and again

[sammytaters]

Combining two kick samples can turn the low end into mud depending on phasing. The beater sound contributes most on how you perceive it. I don't think its a good tip really unless your original sound is lacking. Kick energy is relative to the other instrument's levels/dynamics/effects.

[Will.E.P.]

You know, I would suggest two options.

1. Sample a kick from a track you like.... Everyone does this from time to time, even the pros. It's been in practice for at least 15 or 20 years now. That is the foundations of the MPC.

2. Make your own... What you are going for is not that hard at all. Just use a sine wave, use a pitch envelop at the starting (Operator would work fine for this). The rate and amount of the pitch bend determines how much punch and the frequency of emphasis. Youtube how to make it, I'm sure it's out there.

On a final not, a big part of the reason you have trouble hearing your kick on something like a laptop is because it is way too over compressed. In order for the kick to punch through the mix, lighten up on it. When you compress it use a far slower attack time. Something around 20 to 30ms, potentially even more. This will get you closer to the sound you are looking for.

I think if you learn more about synthesis and things like compressors, your kick game will be up to date. The reason you don't understand how to fix a sound, is because you don't understand how that sound functions or how it came to be.

Producing is quite honestly a science. It is physics, man. Sit down and learn the foundations before you blast off into creation mode, because you will find you can be more creative when you know how to do what you want to do quickly and efficiently. Heck, these days you don't even need to go to school for it, youtube already has a 4 year degree program for free.

Good luck. If you want further help on things, feel free to add me on skype.

[Fifstar]

Originally Posted by Whalez

Wow you guys rock I got the gold baby demos and some of it is already just straight better than what I already had with all the tweaks Ii posted about haha

I did already layer a sine wave from ableton analog on the kick in that track but here is my second question I just kept trying it on different low notes till it sounded right but how do I know if its in tune with the song do I use it on one of the same notes I did the melodies or bass with? The sine waves parts I mean

I remember downloading loads of average drum sounds when I started and trying to tweak them. They never really sounded good. You can tweak as much as you want, weak source material will (almost) never sound good no matter the processing. This is less true when doing percussions, but kicks just need good basic samples.

Btw, the Wave Alchemy Minimal Drums sound collection has an entire section dedicated to drum tools, has lots of samples that have either that low boom or higher up smack. They're great for layering with other kicks. You're already doing really good though with goldbaby drums.


Regarding you second question, I think the sine wave should be tuned to the root of the key of your track (which normally should be the same for your bassline and your melodies).

[Whalez]

Originally Posted by Will.E.P.

You know, I would suggest two options.

1. Sample a kick from a track you like.... Everyone does this from time to time, even the pros. It's been in practice for at least 15 or 20 years now. That is the foundations of the MPC.

2. Make your own... What you are going for is not that hard at all. Just use a sine wave, use a pitch envelop at the starting (Operator would work fine for this). The rate and amount of the pitch bend determines how much punch and the frequency of emphasis. Youtube how to make it, I'm sure it's out there.

On a final not, a big part of the reason you have trouble hearing your kick on something like a laptop is because it is way too over compressed. In order for the kick to punch through the mix, lighten up on it. When you compress it use a far slower attack time. Something around 20 to 30ms, potentially even more. This will get you closer to the sound you are looking for.

I think if you learn more about synthesis and things like compressors, your kick game will be up to date. The reason you don't understand how to fix a sound, is because you don't understand how that sound functions or how it came to be.

Producing is quite honestly a science. It is physics, man. Sit down and learn the foundations before you blast off into creation mode, because you will find you can be more creative when you know how to do what you want to do quickly and efficiently. Heck, these days you don't even need to go to school for it, youtube already has a 4 year degree program for free.

Good luck. If you want further help on things, feel free to add me on skype.

Thank you especially for #2 and the details there

I am ok at synthesis I learned a ton off YouTube already and I have a family member that makes dance music so he has taught me a bunch too it's probably my favorite thing out of the whole deal so far and I think I do know some the foundation atuff ok so far but I just really like to make things so I doubt I can just stop I learn stuff better by doing it while I'm learning it even in normal classes in school I'm the same way

Basicly what how I learned what I alreadyd did about synthesis is I would YouTube tutorials on artists I like and how u can make a sound they used then I would just memorize what each little piece did while I tried it on my own stuff so like first I would see them use a filter like a lowpass or bandpass then I would just spend a while starting out on a blank setting in sylenth and change only that filter until it kind of stuck in my brain how it worked with the other settings

So basicly I just kept doing this with different settings I learned from different YouTube videos until I could make my own version of a sound I wanted without having to find directions ffor it I DEFINITELY don't know everything yet but I'm pretty good at memorizing stuff especially if its fun to me

I also have a book my brother gave me Ableton Power which I learned a ton from cause I read it a bunch even before I ended up talking my rents into getting me ableton

I'm still not very good on compressors and eqs and stuff but I'm getting a lot better especially on eq and kind of memorizing and understanding how different eq points affect different parts of the sounds, like one thing I found out totally on my own was when the release on your compressor u are sidechaining with is pretty close time wise to the release on your kick it seems to really vibe a lot better than if they are totally different all my stuff sounded better after I figured that out I think but there are prolly a ton of things like that I will find out lol



When you said the kick in that song I posted was too compressed do people compress them.before they make them into a one hit sample because in that song I didn't use a compressor on the kick only on the other instruments and some of the hats and perc and since I'm guessing they do how do you find samples that don't already have compressors on them do they label them if they do/don't when you buy them?

I promise I am pretty self reliant I teach myself really well I know it might not seem like it but outside of my step bro I've just never really had anyone to talk about this stuff with so I'm excited and kind of just going off talking wise

[Will.E.P.]

Originally Posted by Whalez

When you said the kick in that song I posted was too compressed do people compress them.before they make them into a one hit sample because in that song I didn't use a compressor on the kick only on the other instruments and some of the hats and perc and since I'm guessing they do how do you find samples that don't already have compressors on them do they label them if they do/don't when you buy them?

I promise I am pretty self reliant I teach myself really well I know it might not seem like it but outside of my step bro I've just never really had anyone to talk about this stuff with so I'm excited and kind of just going off talking wise

Most good sample libraries don't give you compressed sampled. There is something going on with that though, whether it is extreme compression or extreme limiting. I am going to make something for you to use for kicks and upload it on here. I will make it will all ableton instruments and put it in an instrument rack so you can fine shape your kicks. Keep an eye out.

[Whalez]

Dude thank you so much I DLed Skype but I've never used it before how do I find you on it?

Also I edited this to add I did use the limiter in ableton on the master track for the whole track so maybe that's what's doing it I know the least about limiters than anything


One more edit I have read about phase but I really honestly don't understand it at all is there any in depth articles or videos someone can point me to on phase?

[Will.E.P.]

There is a little skype icon under my user avatar. Click that. It will give you my name.

Here is my instrument rack. I made it kind of quick, but it should help you get close to what you need. You can of course open it up and tweak what you want. Hope this helps some what.

Will.E.P. Kick Designer.zip

To use it, unzip it, then find the location of it in ableton's file browser and drag it in.

[James Meeker]

I think it should be said that writing, producing and creating music is something that takes YEARS to learn. And you'll never master it.

Some people around these parts have been doing music for decades. I'm sure they'll all admit they have much more to learn. There's music theory, sound design, mixing, mastering, recording, technology, sampling, subtractive synthesis, FM, guitar amps, basses, synths and so on and on and on and on. It never ever stops!

I think everyone just starting out should be made cognizant of this fact.