"There have existed only 2 totally analogue polysynths"

[dhollmusik]

"In mainstream synthesis, there have only ever been two totally analogue polysynths: the Korg PS3100 and PS3300."


Read on:

Synth Secrets, Part 21: From Polyphony To Digital Synths


Fascinating. I for one wasn't aware of the digital trickery already in place in VCO analogue polys. Microprocessors, even.

[Visible Cow]

Thank God. Analogue poly synths totally suck.

Sorry for the joke. Interesting read.

[dhollmusik]

Originally Posted by Visible Cow

Thank God. Analogue poly synths totally suck.

Sorry for the joke. Interesting read.

Apologising for the joke before the recipient has even read it breaks the first rule of comedy:

Don't laugh at or apologise for your own joke.




Have you seen the specs on the Korg PS3300? Only 48-polyphony with 48 VCO's...what a lightweight.

[seen-da-sizer]

Originally Posted by dhollmusik

Have you seen the specs on the Korg PS3300? Only 48-polyphony with 48 VCO's...what a lightweight.

That is not quite correct. There are 36 VCOs (3 x 12) in the PS-3300. The octaves are done with frequency dividers.

One could look at the frequency dividers as a digital component. Therefore the quote:

In mainstream synthesis, there have only ever been two totally analogue polysynths: the Korg PS3100 and PS3300.

may have to be corrected to:

In mainstream synthesis, there are none totally analogue polysynths in existence.

[3phase]

Originally Posted by seen-da-sizer

That is not quite correct. There are 36 VCOs (3 x 12) in the PS-3300. The octaves are done with frequency dividers.

One could look at the frequency dividers as a digital component. Therefore the quote:

In mainstream synthesis, there have only ever been two totally analogue polysynths: the Korg PS3100 and PS3300.

may have to be corrected to:

In mainstream synthesis, there are none totally analogue polysynths in existence.

The keyboard tracking/cv voltage distribution has nothing to do with digital sound generation. It has something to do with the keyboard.

There was guitar synth versions from moog, roland oberheim..and the very same synths you call partly digital get "100"% analog as soon the polyphonic CV comes from another source.. very handy that a guitar just has 6 strings..

An analogue modular system is still an analogue modular system when you use digital sequencers or even oscilator modules in it..
As long the voices themself react to control voltages and the sound is generated and not simulated and not stepped data packages are inside the audiocircuit we have a full analog synth..

The only analogue polyphons where we leave the 100% analogue area I know are the oberheim matrix 12..that has chips that still process analogue but are controled with digital data and not voltages..

And the Crumar bit one maybe..it has a digital oscilator but is still very analog, but no knobs anymore.. it wanted to be a digital synth i guess..modern ...

Or the SCI prophet VS ..also digital oscillators and already more at home in the digital world if there woudnt be the nice analogue filters..

And probably a few more crossovers, but the majority of analogue polysynth are 100% analogue synthezisers.. because the sound synthesis is analogue..how you play it, and that you maybe need a cpu for that task, to avoid a few hundred relais and toothwheels, is not the problem of the voice boards.

[Space Station]

Im lost.... I thought the article was about the only truly fully polyphonic analogue synths...not whether certain analogues have digital control or not.

[3phase]

Originally Posted by Space Station

Im lost.... I thought the article was about the only truly fully polyphonic analogue synths...not whether certain analogues have digital control or not.

the articel tells bull.. back on track now?

ok..bull is a bit hard.. they emphazise a bit on the truly remarkable korg 3000 series..

But not the only polyphon without logic chips..

The oberheim 4 voice "cpu" is 100% analog build with the aid of logic chips.. thats an analogue computer

anyway..too much words about bull..dont worry..your analogue synths are analogue synths.

[realtrance]

I think in a few more years we'll all realize that, you know? basically, it doesn't really matter.

Digital synthesis solves problems designers in analogue days were desperate to solve, and opens up a vastly wider range of possibilities.

If anything, it's that cornucopia of possibilities that has overwhelmed everyone.

In time, it will all get sorted and make sense.

Meanwhile, the history is interesting, and that's a great series of articles at SoundOnSound.

[3phase]

Originally Posted by realtrance

I think in a few more years we'll all realize that, you know? basically, it doesn't really matter.

Digital synthesis solves problems designers in analogue days were desperate to solve, and opens up a vastly wider range of possibilities.

If anything, it's that cornucopia of possibilities that has overwhelmed everyone.

In time, it will all get sorted and make sense.

Meanwhile, the history is interesting, and that's a great series of articles at SoundOnSound.

? from what type of digital ynthesis are you talking about?.. for subtractiv synthesis analog synths was never as popular as today..and there was never as many analog synths build as today. its not over.. especially because the digital world failed to provide the necessary fine resolution yet.

[JimmiG]

In the early days of synthesizers, there was lots of unstable and unpredictable analog circuitry, and the challenge was to make it as stable and predictable as possible. Now we have computers with perfect precision and stability, and developers spend their time trying to simulate analog instability...

Maybe when we get quantum computers, developers will try to make them only produce 1's and 0's like today's digital computers..

[BM0]

On the other hand, how many totally digital monophonic-only synths have been made?

[3phase]

Originally Posted by JimmiG

In the early days of synthesizers, there was lots of unstable and unpredictable analog circuitry, and the challenge was to make it as stable and predictable as possible. Now we have computers with perfect precision and stability, and developers spend their time trying to simulate analog instability...

Maybe when we get quantum computers, developers will try to make them only produce 1's and 0's like today's digital computers..

Sounds like a eunuch that is talking about sex... just to describe the relations..out of some books?..nothing personal...but your arguments are rather funny..

the only reason synths went digital was to produce them cheaper.. not because of stability reasons and especialty not because of the sound quality

[wwjd]

I don't even know what there is to worry about.
If I want a sound that goes, "BWaaaaaaaaiiizzzzzzzzz-wwwwoowwwmmmp!"
I don't care WHAT makes the sound as long as it sounds great. Could be an electrical signal, a sample, a bird farting.... As long as it is musically what I need. meh could one electrically sample a bird fart? might be fun

[3phase]

Originally Posted by wwjd

I don't even know what there is to worry about.
If I want a sound that goes, "BWaaaaaaaaiiizzzzzzzzz-wwwwoowwwmmmp!"
I don't care WHAT makes the sound as long as it sounds great. Could be an electrical signal, a sample, a bird farting.... As long as it is musically what I need. meh could one electrically sample a bird fart? might be fun

digital synths are great for fart noises of all kind.. just the wet fart is not 100% convincing

[wwjd]

Originally Posted by 3phase

digital synths are great for fart noises of all kind.. just the wet fart is not 100% convincing

DOH!!
hahhaha

[seen-da-sizer]

Originally Posted by 3phase

The keyboard tracking/cv voltage distribution has nothing to do with digital sound generation. It has something to do with the keyboard.

Wasn't talking about keyboard tracking. If you would understand the inner workings of the Korg PS series totally analogue polysynths, you would not have made that statement. Neither would have Gordon Reid his in the article mentioned above.

How the hell got this from making a joke, into an analog VS digital debate is beyond me.

[dhollmusik]

Originally Posted by BM0

On the other hand, how many totally digital monophonic-only synths have been made?

Korg Prophecy. It was Liam Howlett's main gripe with what became one of his favourite synths. It's also the reason I won't buy it...I'm a poly fan. The Korg Z1 is supposed to be the poly-version of the Prophecy.

Some (or all?) of the Electribes are monophone.

[dhollmusik]

Originally Posted by seen-da-sizer

How the hell got this from making a joke, into an analog VS digital debate is beyond me.

It's fascinating, tho'. The analog vs digital debate has many nuances and is fed largely by subjective impressions. But most of us really can hear it. I remember a thread here: "Which is which?" posting two identical simple sine waves challenging the forum to identify which one is analogue and which one is digital (might have been a real Polysix vs a Legacy Polysix).

Pretty much all of us guessed right...not after the first listen, because they really did sound the same on the surface, but when listening deeper, we could all hear a difference in thickness and 'life'.

Is this even measurable? I don't know.

As Spock would say...fascinating.

In terms of this thread, when does analogue stop being analogue? When it uses DCO's, or when its filter is digital?

For me DCO synths are a true hybrid, I can hear they're not VCO's (or at least I think I can). When a synth has a digital filter then it's generally fully digital and that's when the majority of us can begin to hear the differences.

[seen-da-sizer]

Originally Posted by dhollmusik

As Spock would say...fascinating.

You my friend, live long and prosper!



Everyone else who does not understand jokes, burn on Vulcan!

[memristor]

Originally Posted by 3phase

The keyboard tracking/cv voltage distribution has nothing to do with digital sound generation. It has something to do with the keyboard.

you are missing the point entirly -

frequency dividers act on oscillators, and have nothing to do with cv from the keyboard

even though vacuum tube based frequency dividers were already used in the Novachord
they can be considered "digital" since they are sort of logic binary devices


edit - oops just seen seen-da-sizer already answered this

[3phase]

Originally Posted by memristor

you are missing the point entirly -

frequency dividers act on oscillators, and have nothing to do with cv from the keyboard

even though vacuum tube based frequency dividers were already used in the Novachord
they can be considered "digital" since they are sort of logic binary devices


edit - oops just seen seen-da-sizer already answered this

but the dividers act analogue to theire input like a gear somehow and generate a lot of own sound

again.. the main difference is whether a sound is generated or calculated...

a digital oscilator still generates.. but the waveform is calculated and therefore sounds a bit dead allready..


But even when you want to exclude any synth with digital oscilators..there are still way more than 2 korgs.

[walth]

Originally Posted by dhollmusik

"In mainstream synthesis, there have only ever been two totally analogue polysynths: the Korg PS3100 and PS3300."


Read on:

Synth Secrets, Part 21: From Polyphony To Digital Synths


Fascinating. I for one wasn't aware of the digital trickery already in place in VCO analogue polys. Microprocessors, even.

cool article.

[steveman]

Originally Posted by 3phase

The oberheim 4 voice "cpu" is 100% analog build with the aid of logic chips.. thats an analogue computer

Err... since when were logic chips analogue? That's a new one on me. That's not an 'analogue computer', it's a CPU built from logic circuits. Analogue computing works on voltage levels (it's essentially what most subtractive analogue synth circuits are). If it's dealing in binary / hex / BCD whatever 'logic' (key word) we're talking digital. Of course all digital systems in the real world are analogue as there's no such thing as true digital 0 or 1.

Originally Posted by 3phase

anyway..too much words about bull..dont worry..your analogue synths are analogue synths.

Indeed - anyone who actually starts to care whether the keyboard scanning in their synth is analogue really needs to get out more ...

[dhollmusik]

Originally Posted by steveman

Indeed - anyone who actually starts to care whether the keyboard scanning in their synth is analogue really needs to get out more ...

haha...true. But at least we're not at the level of audiophiles or computer-nerds...now they do go into some depth. Cameraslutz are funny too, you ask one about inherent noise reduction at RAW level and he'll pixel-peep his way to geek heaven.

Real-world application? What's that?

[dr_Jezz]

Originally Posted by dhollmusik

haha...true. But at least we're not at the level of audiophiles or computer-nerds...now they do go into some depth. Cameraslutz are funny too, you ask one about inherent noise reduction at RAW level and he'll pixel-peep his way to geek heaven.

Real-world application? What's that?

Having read all the above, I'm not so sure!

[tvsky]

Originally Posted by BM0

On the other hand, how many totally digital monophonic-only synths have been made?

dispite lots of hybrid digital/analog monos only 1 truly digital mono springs to mind



can anyone think of another?

[seen-da-sizer]

Originally Posted by tvsky

dispite lots of hybrid digital/analog monos only 1 truly digital mono springs to mind



can anyone think of another?

Why get only one, when you can have 0s and 1s?

Of course you are right. LOL Korg appears to be leading in that department too! Some few hybrid monos that come to my mind:

Oscar
360 Systems MIDI Bass
Mono Evolver
Monomachine
Shruthi
Monowave

[Teknobeam]

Originally Posted by BM0

On the other hand, how many totally digital monophonic-only synths have been made?

Ahh very good question.

[Teknobeam]

Originally Posted by 3phase

but the dividers act analogue to theire input like a gear somehow and generate a lot of own sound

again.. the main difference is whether a sound is generated or calculated...

a digital oscilator still generates.. but the waveform is calculated and therefore sounds a bit dead allready..


But even when you want to exclude any synth with digital oscilators..there are still way more than 2 korgs.

That is a very lucid distinction.

[The Real MC]

Originally Posted by dhollmusik

[B][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][I]"In mainstream synthesis, there have only ever been two totally analogue polysynths: the Korg PS3100 and PS3300."

The author is full of putrid horse excrement. Those Korg PS systems are based on a TOS divide-down system which is a glorified organ not a synthesizer. You cannot get voice modulation such as crossmod or independent key pitch or PW (I am referring to ENV->PW modulation not PWM) on a TOS system.

I played a PS3100 - it was no more variable than my Polymoog. And that's not saying much.

A true polyphonic is the Oberheim SEM polyphonic.