Where does purchase of high end AD Converter rank?

[Gringo Starr]

There have been threads about this but not in this forum. I decided to ask here because I've gotten familiar with and trust certain peoples opinions in this forum specifically. So here it goes.

I have a Motu 828 Mk2. I use Logic. I have a Chandler Abbey Road mic pre and a Manley Compressor/Limiter. I also have an AT 4033, Rode K2, and an SM 57. My monitors suck. They are M-Audios. But I live in a paper thin walled apartment and can't properly use them anyway. So I use headphones most of the time. And getting final mixes in my home studio is not a concern. Not for the meantime anyway.

If I get an Apogee Rosetta 800 or a different higher end AD converter is it going to make a huge difference in the sound quality? I don't have a lot of experience using different AD converters. Thats why I'm asking. I really don't know what to expect the difference to be between an $800 converter or a $2,000+ converter.

The objective with my recordings is to be able to get solid sound quality recordings done at home to be able to take to a professional studio to mix and not have to redo all the tracks. Considering this and considering what I have, should a high end converter be high on the priority list?

[onemoretime]

Side of cables converters are the most profitable shit they sell at the stores. It costs less then 17 dollars to make a digital to analog converter. But just cause it is cheap don't mean that they have to sell it cheap. Rule of thumb.
Does the company have more expensive converter solution on the market?
Yes. You are not getting good conversion. They leave that for the top dog ballaz that can afford to pay tons of money for something cheap to make.

By shittifing the cheaper solution they create fake value on the more expensive one. Lol.

But you know like whatever.

I am tired of people talking smack about my 3 888 24s.
They work fine for what I do. Just fine.

Like anybody going to listen to the record and say wow imagine how much better it would sound if they had used converters with a huge profit margin for box tossers at the major chains....

Like somebody building a high end studio and how dare he add the 4 three thousand dollar digi-design 192s aimed to the high end market you know the ones that are designed to work with his 20k pro tools system? Why did he just use those why didn't he spend another 20k on ''ballin convertaz''???

**** outta here with this forum bullshit.

Buster ass converter ******.

[Gringo Starr]

Originally Posted by onemoretime

Side of cables converters are the most profitable shit they sell at the stores. It costs less then 17 dollars to make a digital to analog converter. But just cause it is cheap don't mean that they have to sell it cheap. Rule of thumb.
Does the company have more expensive converter solution on the market?
Yes. You are not getting good conversion. They leave that for the top dog ballaz that can afford to pay tons of money for something cheap to make.

By shittifing the cheaper solution they create fake value on the more expensive one. Lol.

But you know like whatever.

I am tired of people talking smack about my 3 888 24s.
They work fine for what I do. Just fine.

Like anybody going to listen to the record and say wow imagine how much better it would sound if they had used converters with a huge profit margin for box tossers at the major chain....

Like somebody building a high end studio and how dare he add the 4 digi-design 192s aimed to the high end market you know the ones that are designed to work with 20 his pro tools system? Why didhe just use those why didn't he spend another 20k on ballin convertaz.

**** outta here with this forum bullshit.

Buster ass converter ******.

Do yourself a favor and drink another one.

[lain2097]

usability over supposed specs - for me at least. Got a fw 16x16 mixer which solves a number of functional issues for me so I'm nowhere near looking at a new AD/DA. Yes I've owned an apogee rosetta for a period, but usefulness and my better judgement won.

Most of my favourite music (early 90s techno) was done using mackie desks, tascam DATs and even cassette! Besides most modern gear is "good enough" anyway so why not start with the source?

All I have on the subject.

[NWSooner]

We've had this discussion here before. You might see if you can find one of the threads. My personal opinion is that converters are the least important part of the signal chain. Instruments (synths, guitars, etc.) are most important to me. Monitoring next. Then mics, then preamps, and finally converters. Eventually you want the entire signal chain to be as good as you can afford, but pretty much all modern converters are reasonably good. That being said you can definitely hear the difference between, say, an 003 (which was my old interface) and the ULN-8 and LIO-8 I replaced it with. But something as cheap as a Steinberg MR-816 has great converters, so you don't have to spend tons.

[Teknobeam]

I'm happy with the Motu HD192. Most of the new stuff is pretty good these days. You can spend your life bogged down in minutia or just go with what you have. Not having the latest or greatest certainly hasn't stopped a lot of people from cranking out some amazing sound and music.

[sftd]

I wanted a "future-proof" converter, and so despite my very limited selection of hardware synthesizers and processing I upgraded from an Emu 1616m PCIe to a Metric Halo ULN-2 +dsp. The difference was underwhelming to say the least. So much so that I immediately considered returning it, but did not in the chance that when I learned the craft better I would theoretically not "grow out of it" for quite some time. I would like to note that in my opinion the difference on the D/A end was noticeably larger than the A/D end when comparing the MH to the Emu.

I would be perfectly happy still using my 1616m daily.

For live use/away from home laptop use, I use a humble M-Audio Fastrack Pro. I have never seriously tested it's A/D conversion as I don't use hardware instruments live nor bring them with me when I travel. I obviously use it's D/A side frequently and am satisfied with it. It sounds very much the same as the MH ULN2 in a boomy live venue/club system. However, at home it is very obvious that the D/A end on the MH is quite superior to the Fasttrack Pro.

[Eric J]

My signal chain for my mains goes:

Computer > MOTU 2408 mkIII > Apogee Rosetta 200 > Focal Twin 6be.

There is a noticeable difference running my mains out my Apogee Rosetta 200 versus just running them out my MOTU 2408 mkIII. It sounds "better" to me. Brighter, wider, more defined and detailed.

Now thats D/A, but the difference is there. It wasnt as huge as then I went from Mackiw HR824's to the Focal Twins, but there difference is definitely there.

I would not want to go back and produce without the Rosetta now.

As for A/D, I started running my (now sold) Moog LP into the Rosetta instead of into the MOTU 2408 and again, there was a noticeable difference. Again, brighter, defined and more detailed.

[bizness80]

Interesting. When I've asked about audio interfaces in the past (for my laptop) the usual response was something along the lines of "If you buy anything cheaper than an RME Fireface then dont bother using analog synths at all". Seems like you guys have different experiences.

I think my Echo AudioFire will be fine until I upgrade to a dedicated music PC. I cant say how it compares to something more expensive but it certainly doesnt sound like my synths are "recorded through a wool blanket" or anything like that.

[cpie]

Not sure if this answers your question, but I used to have the same soundcard as you (motu), and upgraded to a uln-2.
I noticed a big difference in sound quality - maybe it was the DA playing more of a part ..not sure..but I'm basically a LOT happier.
Having good convertors/monitors/acoustics and a simple signal chain gives you confidence in what you're recording and hearing...that's it really.
You def need to listen to lots of other music in your studio, to get to know the rooms sound .
There are of course other ways to improve your sound,that might have more of an obvious effect (eg tube pre-amps etc) , but for me, just having the knowledge that the conversion is up to standard is re-assuring.

[Brainchild]

Wow, thank god there is (at least so far in this thread) some more or less unanimous sanity about conversion on gearslutz.

A-D/D-A conversion is one of the simplest signal-processing functions possible, in terms of both theory and implementaion. Once market demand developed, it was almost instantly commoditized by every manufacturer who wanted to get in the game.

Like somebody else said...one time I looked up the converter chips used on a top-end Crane Song unit. They're Cirrus Logic chips wholesaling for $5 a pop in batches of 1,000. That is, of course, no indication that the final retail price should only be like $15 or something, but it does tell you that spending like $7,500 for a channel of simple A-D/DA should never be one's goal, regardless of how much money you have.

[3phase]

Originally Posted by Brainchild

Wow, thank god there is (at least so far in this thread) some more or less unanimous sanity about conversion on gearslutz.

A-D/D-A conversion is one of the simplest signal-processing functions possible, in terms of both theory and implementaion. Once market demand developed, it was almost instantly commoditized by every manufacturer who wanted to get in the game.

Like somebody else said...one time I looked up the converter chips used on a top-end Crane Song unit. They're Cirrus Logic chips wholesaling for $5 a pop in batches of 1,000. That is, of course, no indication that the final retail price should only be like $15 or something, but it does tell you that spending like $7,500 for a channel of simple A-D/DA should never be one's goal, regardless of how much money you have.

You might be right that certain units really going mad about the pricing.. But in a standard fireface you have the 0,80.- cent chips ... so 5$ for thousend is actually an expensiv chip..
And when the rest of the circuit is only done with 5$ chips where others use the 0,20.- type..or all discrete class A bla bla..
You most defenetly have a better converter than one that has a behringer style buffer amp directly before the conversion.. so you have your pressures audio.. a shity behrigerlizer buffer amp..and than comes the converter...

Especially in the outputs stages we can hear that when a converter has good amps.. And a higend converter that is usb powered is in this sense pretty questionable..


However regarding the pricing.. befeore the converter is the analog domain..and when you want that to be good..the same rules as for any other preamp apply. So 7500 is definitely a bit far stretched..
But good preamps cost money..so when a highend converter is inbetween 2000 and 3000 its sadly expensiv but still reasonable priced when you consider that distribution and shops want to earn something aswell.

When you can live with just 44/48 samplingrates the second hand market holds quite a few real bargains out of the postpro/broadcast sector.

Especially the DA part to drive your monitors makes really a difference..
the gains on the AD side are smaller...

[onemoretime]

Originally Posted by 3phase

You might be right that certain units really going mad about the pricing.. But in a standard fireface you have the 0,80.- cent chips ... so 5$ for thousend is actually an expensiv chip..
And when the rest of the circuit is only done with 5$ chips where others use the 0,20.- type..or all discrete class A bla bla..
You most defenetly have a better converter than one that has a behringer style buffer amp directly before the conversion.. so you have your pressures audio.. a shity behrigerlizer buffer amp..and than comes the converter...

Especially in the outputs stages we can hear that when a converter has good amps.. And a higend converter that is usb powered is in this sense pretty questionable..


However regarding the pricing.. befeore the converter is the analog domain..and when you want that to be good..the same rules as for any other preamp apply. So 7500 is definitely a bit far stretched..
But good preamps cost money..so when a highend converter is inbetween 2000 and 3000 its sadly expensiv but still reasonable priced when you consider that distribution and shops want to earn something aswell.

When you can live with just 44/48 samplingrates the second hand market holds quite a few real bargains out of the postpro/broadcast sector.

Especially the DA part to drive your monitors makes really a difference..
the gains on the AD side are smaller...

Nothing against converters maybe you are running a mastering rig and want the greatest maybe you can buy converters that add a sound to the record. Like some converters have transformers inside to add a bit of grit some are discrete and use high quality components around the converter that may add a few 5 dollar bills to the cost some are expensive just because they look nice. All that is interesting and I am all for people making money be it converters cables ''monitors'' preamps and anything else.... The problem is that they exagerate... They take themselves too seriously. Like the thread where somebody was building a pro studio in the hundreds of thousands and instead of wishing him luck about his new business they were talking some shit about his studio before it even started like ''why are they using 192s there?" Because they came with my pro tools rig BUSTER!!! Thats why!
**** outta here! Converter *******

[onemoretime]

To be honest gearslutz is a valued resource in the pro audio industry but sometimes you know... it can have a negative effect on a company. You have Universal audio wich is one of the greatest companies out there top of the plug in game they also sell excellent analog gear that somebody should rack up with pride because they work and sound fantastic. And they are expensive to make too. Then you got this guy, one guy telling everybody on the internet not to buy their gear for one reason and one reason only.


Because his company couldn't make what he thought was a good profit selling them.


So he posted to convince everybody not to buy their products because they ''don't sound good.'' And the products inside are ****ing expensive!!! Expensive ****ing components inside huge overhead everybody listening to the geardealer with the golden ears! Same guy got no problem selling top dolla convertaz! Mother****ers need to start using their brains...

[nofi]

well, I wanted to get lots of soundcard IOs so I could have a go at getting rid of my mixing desk.

I went for the best IO expansion I could afford (not like I spent $7500/channel but) because one of the big bonuses of having lots of IOs and no more mixer, is all of sudden my outboard FX gear is now directly connected to the computer and so is available for re-processing tracks already recorded - but this means there is the possibility of lots of A/D and D/A processes happening to a single track.

I recommend you think about your converter and how much of a role it's going to play in your recording. if you just want something to take sound into your computer once, and then output the mix to your monitors, well I don't think you have to go nuts, but if you're looking at 4 or so A/D-D/A processes, you want to know you're adding as little in the way of artifacts as possible to the sound each time you do it.

[Bob Olhsson]

I think the importance of converters is very underrated. This came crashing home to me the first time I went to boost the top with a plug-in.

[plaid_emu]

Lynx Aurora 16 vs Behringer ADA8000

That thread is one of the most interesting reads ever posted on Gearslutz. It was hilarious seeing all of the back-peddling that was done by all of the "respected" people who guessed it wrong. "Now that I listen to that again you can definitely tell the Behringer sounded harsh and lacked detail, sounded too saturated... etc."

When I first read it I was in the market for some affordable ADAT expansion to add to my Fireface 400. I was checking out the Focusrite Octopre mkII Dynamic which goes for $700. I decided to try out the Behringer unit for $200 and just return it if I wasn't happy. Well here it sits in my modest little setup two years later and I've been more than pleased with its performance. I think it sounds every bit as good as the RME unit and it hasn't given me any issues so far (knock on wood).

I think the current AD/DA conversion industry is raging with a lot of hype and snake oil salesmen. Not to say there's NO difference between a Cranesong and Behringer. I just don't think the difference is worth the 1000% markup. My decision to buy the RME Fireface was mostly based on driver stability, connectivity options and build quality. Sound quality was much further down on the list.

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by plaid_emu

I think the current AD/DA conversion industry is raging with a lot of hype and snake oil salesmen. Not to say there's NO difference between a Cranesong and Behringer. I just don't think the difference is worth the 1000% markup.

1000% markup? Where are you getting this figure?

[plaid_emu]

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell

1000% markup? Where are you getting this figure?

It was an exaggeration.

Maybe the cost is worth it to someone with a commercial studio who is trying to impress clients or to a hobbyist with a ****ton of disposable income. I don't have either of those things. Just running a lot of line level signals in and out of my Mac. Conversion is not so important. I'd rather spend the extra money upgrading my monitors or working on room treatment.

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by plaid_emu

It was an exaggeration.

Maybe the cost is worth it to someone with a commercial studio who is trying to impress clients or to a hobbyist with a ****ton of disposable income. I don't have either of those things. Just running a lot of line level signals in and out of my Mac. Conversion is not so important. I'd rather spend the extra money upgrading my monitors or working on room treatment.

Ok, just sayin....and I won't ever argue the importance of the stuff you mention. I would never argue against the sacrifice of anything, since it all matters equally. But I think if you look under the hood of the products you mentioned, you might see some pretty masterful precision work on the crane song, with what equals no other comparison, other than crane song technology. Then you might compare that to the electronics, and component board layout work on the other product, and I think you will see, that the Crane Song product is engineered in a much different way.

Just sayin.....

I don't think any income is disposable, even if you are rich. If you are dumb, maybe. But we are talking about Analog to Digital and Digital to Analog converters here. I can assume there are only ever going to be small differences between them. Between 1K and 10K. Is one inch one mile on your race track? It is on mine. I guess it all depends on who's listening to the differences and how they feel about them.

In the task of this job, I can hear pretty intense differences in these things, personally, same as I can with a $200LDC versus a $1700 LDC, and so on, and so forth. So I personally believe that with Boutique Audio Designs, there are many underlying reasons which may apply to why these products are more expensive than mass produced options that attempt to apply low cost magic to the market.

Which also seems pretty snake oil'ish if you ask me. Getting something better than good for less than cheap seems to tear the fabric of my universe. It could spit diamonds out of the XLR connectors, and have 8 trimmer positions, and if its less than cheap but just as good, I can't hold myself back from ignoring it. For me the differences in converters all become clear by the end of one project, rather than simple tests.

Input/output headroom, frequency response, subjective things like tone, distortion, lack of distortion, musical property, imaging; the way the converters layer tracks, the way a 2-mix hits them, the latency/delay time, the purpose built non-linearity and derived by careful listening sound quality......etc,,etc,,,etc,,,,,,,,

At the end of the day, personally.......the links like the one mentioned are not particularly enlightening for comparing the details of converters and mic amps and microphones, and other various elements of audio production, however discussing my first hand experience with them seems pretty entertaining.

[GeorgeHayduke]

I've gone from Soundblaster Live -> M-audio 2496 -> TC Konnekt, and everytime it has been a noticeable upgrade, a definite sense of increased clarity, precision, spatiality.

I'm am in the same boat as the OP, I've never really used very expensive converters, and I wonder if next time the law of decreasing gain pr. spent dollar will catch up. If the next step up is as much of a difference as previous steps I think it's worth some money, for sure.

Not a specific answer, but that's just my experience.

[Dirty Halo]

Room, monitors, converters are the trifecta of equal importance.

Money isn't the question, it's keeping those three things as good as you can relative to each other, whatever level you can afford to work with.

The reasoning:

1. Your monitors and sound will only be as good as your room is accurate.

2. Once your room is accurate, your monitors need to be as good as you can afford to accurately let you hear what you're really working with (soundwise).

3. Converters are the final part of that chain in that if you are hearing your sound accurately from your monitors and room, then the level of detail comes from your converter quality.


Or, think about it this way...


You can have the best synth on the planet, but if your converters are crap, then your synth is crap.

-andrews


P.S. My advice is to try and ingnore the posters who have some angry agenda against perceived corporate conspiracies or whatever the rant of the week is... just play at your own level and don't worry about the rest.

[SWAN808]

converters are important but these days I rekon there are a lot of decent converters for not much money which will do the trick - and I suspect the returns are diminishing compared to spending on other items. For instance you get a M Audio Profire or a Focusrite, Steinberg will sound pretty reasonable. Hi end converters I think are relevant for pro studio owners rather than artists trying to make tunes (decent interface is fine)....unless the artist is making good dough then sure get a slutty converter.

[Dirty Halo]

Originally Posted by SWAN808

converters are important but these days I rekon there are a lot of decent converters for not much money which will do the trick - and I suspect the returns are diminishing compared to spending on other items. For instance you get a M Audio Profire or a Focusrite, Steinberg will sound pretty reasonable. Hi end converters I think are relevant for pro studio owners rather than artists trying to make tunes (decent interface is fine)....unless the artist is making good dough then sure get a slutty converter.

Agreed and I made a point of NOT equating "good" with money.

And my shared point is, it's a matter of relative to the other key pieces of the puzzle, doesn't do ya much good if you have a Prism ADA-8XR and you're monitoring through Mackies.

(Cue flak for naming Mackies... but then, those folks have missed the point )

-a

[Odey]

Originally Posted by Gringo Starr

There have been threads about this but not in this forum. I decided to ask here because I've gotten familiar with and trust certain peoples opinions in this forum specifically. So here it goes.

I have a Motu 828 Mk2. I use Logic. I have a Chandler Abbey Road mic pre and a Manley Compressor/Limiter. I also have an AT 4033, Rode K2, and an SM 57. My monitors suck. They are M-Audios. But I live in a paper thin walled apartment and can't properly use them anyway. So I use headphones most of the time. And getting final mixes in my home studio is not a concern. Not for the meantime anyway.

If I get an Apogee Rosetta 800 or a different higher end AD converter is it going to make a huge difference in the sound quality? I don't have a lot of experience using different AD converters. Thats why I'm asking. I really don't know what to expect the difference to be between an $800 converter or a $2,000+ converter.

The objective with my recordings is to be able to get solid sound quality recordings done at home to be able to take to a professional studio to mix and not have to redo all the tracks. Considering this and considering what I have, should a high end converter be high on the priority list?

You can usually get a demo of apogee stuff for free before you buy it. They don't make the 800 anymore but try the 200 and then hunt for second hand 800...

I upgraded from an m box to the rosetta... The difference was immense... Like night day type stuff...

BUT not sure the difference will be so big from the motu although it might well be but I think you will probably need new speakers to fully get the benefits of the DA to the speakers...

Also you will need a decent monitor controller that is passive so as not to smear up the sound to the monitors too.

But at least you will feel happy that it's converting your preamp signal properly and that the capturing to logic is if a good standard.

For value for money per channel good quality conversion you should seriously consider the SSL Madi stuff too... High channel count... Great quality.... Lowish cost...

[Brian!]

So much ignorance in this thread.

You're going to read all kinds of bullshit from both sides on this forum. I'd recommend finding a store or rental place where you can check out a bunch of converters and just decide from there. Converters are all about what you can hear and if you can't hear the difference (which may not only be your ears but room, monitors, treatment, etc.) or can't justify the difference vs price then don't bother.

[Dirty Halo]

Originally Posted by Brian!

So much ignorance in this thread.

You're going to read all kinds of bullshit from both sides on this forum. I'd recommend finding a store or rental place where you can check out a bunch of converters and just decide from there. Converters are all about what you can hear and if you can't hear the difference (which may not only be your ears but room, monitors, treatment, etc.) or can't justify the difference vs price then don't bother.

+1

-andrews

[onemoretime]

Buster ass converter ******s. That is like the bottom line of what we are talking about here! Put it to you like this...
If you wont hear a difference on your ns10s or your cool ass westlake soffit mounted mains in the wall getting signal from the monitoring section on your 4k ssl you know the industry workhorse with transformers on the inserts and channel strips loaded with like 15 5532s it will make as much difference to the final product as what color socks the guy at the hot dog stand across the street is wearing if he is even wearing any! Like seriously. Gear ******y goes too far sometimes... Like yeah we can't make a record on your modest twenty five thousand dollar 192 system you must buy seperate converter boxes that feature the exact same god damn asahi kasei microsystems converter chips bought from the exact same place but pay another 20 thousand dollars for them.
Like you cant even enjoy your pro tools rig that is very expensive for what it does but hey it works nice right... nope... need to buy converters with ridiculous markup for box tossers because see if you take the signal from your ssl strip with like an la2a on the insert and the signal travels through 15 real world opamps well... if the 16th opamp on the converter section is nothing but the illest most overpriced IC opamp eva don't even consider making a record.


**** outta here buster ass converter ******. Use your head people or it wont be long until the pro audio industry turns to this shit...

[Teknobeam]

Ha.. That home stereo system is definitely not wife friendly. That's what happens when you have read too many "stereo review" mags.

[Dirty Halo]

What's with the overt hostility on this topic?

It's not that big a deal... Get the best converter YOU can afford and that works within the context of your room, monitors, and gear.

The guy asked about the importance of converters and since its THE part of the equation that captures all your hard work, its important.

Pretty simple. Not exactly anything to get yer panties in a wad about.

-a