What sequencer for MIDI? Great MIDI TIMING Needed!

[elan]

Hello

I'm getting problems, as usual, with midi...

I'd like to be able to trigger VIs and BFD2 using my MPC as Master Sequencer, because I really like the way MPC captures my performances and I'd like to sequence everything with it, using the computer as an expander

Problems, I did some tests in Ableton Live 8 and Pro Tools 9, result: MIDI isn't recorded aligned with audio. There's always a random difference that's around some samples to 2ms or more

If I sequence BFD using the stand alone app, everything is fine. The drums are beating and my ass is shaking. If I sequence BFD (and other VI) inside a DAW I get latencies - random latencies - the consequence is a general sloppiness

So, anyone has found a solid way to work with midi?
I also would be able to sync (if it's not a dream) the DAW to the MPC, so I'm able to record a guitar, or something, while the MPC is sequencing the other instruments

I'd just like to have a setup with "everything at hands", everything ready, so I can let the flow happen and "compose by instinct" then refine stuff

Never been able to get that result, I hope I will because that's what I really need.

[HomeProducer]

Originally Posted by elan

Hello

I'm getting problems, as usual, with midi...

I'd like to be able to trigger VIs and BFD2 using my MPC as Master Sequencer, because I really like the way MPC captures my performances and I'd like to sequence everything with it, using the computer as an expander

Problems, I did some tests in Ableton Live 8 and Pro Tools 9, result: MIDI isn't recorded aligned with audio. There's always a random difference that's around some samples to 2ms or more

If I sequence BFD using the stand alone app, everything is fine. The drums are beating and my ass is shaking. If I sequence BFD (and other VI) inside a DAW I get latencies - random latencies - the consequence is a general sloppiness

So, anyone has found a solid way to work with midi?
I also would be able to sync (if it's not a dream) the DAW to the MPC, so I'm able to record a guitar, or something, while the MPC is sequencing the other instruments

I'd just like to have a setup with "everything at hands", everything ready, so I can let the flow happen and "compose by instinct" then refine stuff

Never been able to get that result, I hope I will because that's what I really need.

Which MPC do you have. Midi sucks on the newer ones, too.
2 ms is actually what I got with the mpc 2500 (sold) if no effects are engaged.

Try logic on a MAC, it has solid timing, BUT midi latency (not jitter) may vary
if you engage plugins or softsynths. The solution is too create a project for the
pure purpose of recording and later create another project for mixing.

[elan]

Thanks for the suggestion

I have an MPC 2000xl I like its timing a lot

BTW, I sort of hate Logic, I've used it many years and I'd prefer to use Pro Tools... but I could try rewiring Logic to Pro Tools and to the MPC :P and see what happens... never been lucky with rewire too... but I could try it again

I don't care about latency.. can be compensated, I care about random latencies.. jitter.. what really affects timing and makes it sloppy

Is it possible no one notice it?

I also tried slaving the MPC in the past.. but really.. seems like playing a computer... I have a Unitor 8 and I use it in patch mode and just print the audio, but one time happened that it quitted from patch mode (because I was using it with Pro Tools opened) and the MPC got slaved.. I didn't noticed that at the beginning.. I was just feeling the timing wasn't right... and then I found out it was not in patch mode anymore... so that, for me, is the proof that the timing difference I'm hearing exist and is very evident

[Morechips]

My experience so far trying similiar setups to the one you (the OP) describe is that they don't work very well, for a variety of reasons. But if you want to keep trying to sequence stuff within a daw from an external sequencer like an MPC you may get better results by experimenting with various midi interfaces, I got a dramatic improvement when i switched from a 4 port USB interface to the single midi input on my RME Multiface. But in general i think you will have problems because the guys who design and program DAWS generally aren't anticipating that we would want to sequence VSTi's from outside the DAW and hence do not allocate resources to this kind of operation. The problems increase when you try to sequence from outside the DAW and sync it to an external sync source!!! make the DAW the slave twice!! no no no! DAW developers don't want to encourage you/us to do this sort of thing, they want their DAW to be master.

There may be some alternative VSTi hosts that are designed to be used in the way you want.

[elan]

Originally Posted by Morechips

There may be some alternative VSTi hosts that are designed to be used in the way you want.

Like what?

BTW I really like triggering BFD with my MPC, it has a punch I'm not getting sequencing it with the DAW

Also I like to play with the pads

[Morechips]

Originally Posted by elan

Like what?

BTW I really like triggering BFD with my MPC, it has a punch I'm not getting sequencing it with the DAW

Also I like to play with the pads

I fully understand your attachment to the MPC (what MPC BTW?), i love mine as well! it took me out the box back into hardware land.

Regarding the alternative VST' hosts.....sorry i just can't remember the names of the ones i came across in the past!

[rockmanrock]

This one maybe? VSTHost

[zosthegoatherd]

The jitters could just be because your computer is running more stuff... Do you get processor spikes or other problems when running VIs in your sequencer/DAW? 2ms is actually a fairly small amount of variance (I have a few late '80s early '90s synths that are worse) figuring out exactly what is causing it (plugin, DAW, or interface) may be difficult... If it is the plugin rather then the DAW causing the problem finding it now, before purchasing another DAW...

[Juno6]

Voyetra Sequencer Plus Gold, d.o.s. MIDI sequencer. Perfect timing.

[fooloof]

I can control PT easily with my MPC 3k. I forgot how to do it, but I believe you have to set PT to MTC (midi time code).

[BoahShit]

hello

I use a hardware midi sequencer and have the same problems (Midi jitter) when i use abelton live. also timing is very bad in live, cpu use is very high, etc. in short, live is not reliable with external midi. Before live i used Logic, but the environment (where u configure midi routings etc.) is a pain. So i started recently to use Reaper and so far i am more than happy with the results. it needs some time to start with and configure everything but i think it could be the DAW which lets me do everything i want, safe it as a template and have fun witjh making music.

regards

BJ

[HomeProducer]

Originally Posted by zosthegoatherd

The jitters could just be because your computer is running more stuff... Do you get processor spikes or other problems when running VIs in your sequencer/DAW? 2ms is actually a fairly small amount of variance (I have a few late '80s early '90s synths that are worse) figuring out exactly what is causing it (plugin, DAW, or interface) may be difficult... If it is the plugin rather then the DAW causing the problem finding it now, before purchasing another DAW...

yes, 2 ms for a pc is quite good.

[Muser]

an M-audio Midisport 2X2 dedicated to the MPC could be a useful proposition.

Live is supposed to be a little poor with Midi so many have reported.
but if you have checked their help section in the software help on lining up the midi and audio then the only other factor I know of that you can control yourself is the jitter figures.. which is what the Midisport and the RME's midi IO are reported to be good at.

using that extra 2X2 shouldn't interfere with using any other midi system.

Q for Juno6 on Voyetra.
what midi hardware does that talk through btw.
have you ever tried hooking it up with a modern DAW using MTC or SMPTE ?

I used to use sequencer plus 3 in the past.. it was always a good performer,
I guess they made a few advances since then.

[GoldMember]

*the best midi interface search... can you help?

[systematika]

This thread is full of misinformation.

The reason why you get very bad latency is because of USB. It's inherent to the bus architecture, everything you run through usb or fw automatically gets at least 2-5 ms latency off of the bat. For every second you have a USB interface plugged in, there's an authentication and handshake process going on which will cause latency. There's no settings you can fix, no new interfaces you can buy, NOTHING will fix it except going to an internal card going straight to the chipset.

Gotta use an internal card for your master clock and slave the rest of your gear to your mpc, probably the best way. "I got a dramatic improvement when i switched from a 4 port USB interface to the single midi input on my RME Multiface." is no joke, this is fact and is also the real reason why people say "older computers midi is tons better". It's a technology problem, nobody should ever adopt usb or FW in their studio if they can help it and don't need the mobility.

USB 3 will be the same. It doesn't matter how FAST the data stream is, that's the most common misconception.

http://www.beyondlogic.org/usbnutshell/usb4.shtml this is actually what is going on with your data stream. In an internal card, you don't have to have those handshakes and checks because as far as the computers concerned it's permanently there until it's shut off and can be removed. All you gotta deal with in PCI is an IRQ (which is solved/assigned at boot time) and data stream, that's it.. About 60% less crap to go through from in to out.

[rockmanrock]

Agree with the above. I was going to say, for timing I'd take a PCI card like an Audiophile 2496 over a USB Midisport any day.

[elan]

Good informations, so, what do you use for midi?
I'm searching if even exist a serial pci-e card for mac pro

my unitor has also the serial port, so it isn't a big problem on that part

but I'm wondering why, digidesign, which is supposed to be a pro company, the only dedicated midi interface it has is the MIDI I/O which is discontinued and which has only usb

I'm asking myself how pros does in their studio, if they want to use hardware fx such as reverb or delay, which costs a lot, I'm sure they don't like the idea to have random latencies going on when they plug their expensive units

so, I think there's a way to deal with that problem

anyway I'm formatting my computer now, I want to install everything and check without anything installed except Pro Tools, which latencies I can get, then I'll reinstall everything and I'll measure for every plug I install if there's any change in jittering

I also have a fireface 800 but honestly I had an improvement going from the fireface to the unitor, and even the fireface midi is considered one of the best

[systematika]

Originally Posted by elan

Good informations, so, what do you use for midi?
I'm searching if even exist a serial pci-e card for mac pro

my unitor has also the serial port, so it isn't a big problem on that part

but I'm wondering why, digidesign, which is supposed to be a pro company, the only dedicated midi interface it has is the MIDI I/O which is discontinued and which has only usb

I'm asking myself how pros does in their studio, if they want to use hardware fx such as reverb or delay, which costs a lot, I'm sure they don't like the idea to have random latencies going on when they plug their expensive units

so, I think there's a way to deal with that problem

anyway I'm formatting my computer now, I want to install everything and check without anything installed except Pro Tools, which latencies I can get, then I'll reinstall everything and I'll measure for every plug I install if there's any change in jittering

I also have a fireface 800 but honestly I had an improvement going from the fireface to the unitor, and even the fireface midi is considered one of the best

I'm still using a quad core with PCI ports for good reasons. It's gotten to be a sorry state really. It hasn't really improved, it's actually gotten worse. You're better off with 90s equipment on the sequencer end than you are with new crap. Which I guess is good, because all of that stuff is cheap now but you're locked into the past.

It's almost good reason to think that some of these vintage computers and old MIDI gear will start to ramp up in price once people start to figure it out.

Of course DAWs have MIDI latency compensation but it's just a fix. If someone can release a new card with breakout box that has at least 4 in/4 out MIDI they'll make a killing I'm sure. Nothing really exists currently that is like that, most internal stuff just has one port which isn't bad if you're clocking to a sequencer and slaving the sequencer to gear I suppose.

[maisonvague]

Originally Posted by systematika

I'm still using a quad core with PCI ports for good reasons. It's gotten to be a sorry state really. It hasn't really improved, it's actually gotten worse. You're better off with 90s equipment on the sequencer end than you are with new crap. Which I guess is good, because all of that stuff is cheap now but you're locked into the past.

It's almost good reason to think that some of these vintage computers and old MIDI gear will start to ramp up in price once people start to figure it out.

Of course DAWs have MIDI latency compensation but it's just a fix. If someone can release a new card with breakout box that has at least 4 in/4 out MIDI they'll make a killing I'm sure. Nothing really exists currently that is like that, most internal stuff just has one port which isn't bad if you're clocking to a sequencer and slaving the sequencer to gear I suppose.

I'm with systematika all the way on this.

I do most of my MIDI sequencing using old gear from the 80s/90s -- all non-USB. My primary workstation is a dual 2.0GHz G5 Powermac with a GeeThree Stealth Serial port to which I've connected a MOTU MIDI Express XT serial interface. I get excellent MIDI performance from this rig. This interface also serves as a MIDI patchbay. To program the XT interface for different MIDI configurations, I use a Powermac G4 running OS 9. With two serial ports available on the XT, both computers can access the MIDI interface AT THE SAME TIME which is VERY CONVENIENT for my workflow. I have yet to see a USB MIDI interface that will allow more than one computer to be connected to it at the same time.

The Powermac G4 also has an Audiophile 2496 PCI card attached with a single MIDI port which also delivers good MIDI performance.

I'm not recommending that you run out and buy a bunch of obsolete gear. Rather I'm sharing my own experience which is that working with outboard MIDI gear on modern USB-dependent computers CAN lead to all sorts of timing problems like the ones your describing. Not every one has them. Not everyone cares. But I had them. And I cared.

[3phase]

Originally Posted by elan

Hello

I'm getting problems, as usual, with midi...

I'd like to be able to trigger VIs and BFD2 using my MPC as Master Sequencer, because I really like the way MPC captures my performances and I'd like to sequence everything with it, using the computer as an expander

Problems, I did some tests in Ableton Live 8 and Pro Tools 9, result: MIDI isn't recorded aligned with audio. There's always a random difference that's around some samples to 2ms or more

If I sequence BFD using the stand alone app, everything is fine. The drums are beating and my ass is shaking. If I sequence BFD (and other VI) inside a DAW I get latencies - random latencies - the consequence is a general sloppiness

So, anyone has found a solid way to work with midi?
I also would be able to sync (if it's not a dream) the DAW to the MPC, so I'm able to record a guitar, or something, while the MPC is sequencing the other instruments

I'd just like to have a setup with "everything at hands", everything ready, so I can let the flow happen and "compose by instinct" then refine stuff

Never been able to get that result, I hope I will because that's what I really need.

working on a mac makes the midi around the factor 10 more precise ..of cause only with capabel daw´s.. ableton live likes to place events where it wants sometimes..but that probably by bugs because its actually intended to have the finest resolution of all midi sequencers on the market.. however the midi implementation is still work in progress.. same applies probably to protools.

for midi you are actually best of with cubase. followed by logic... this on an apple with a modern os x should give pretty good results..

of cause also the midi interface matters..

[elan]

Thank you for all your experiences, very useful

Now, considering I want to use BFD2 triggered by the MPC, what if I assemble a new PC with a serial port in it? (or more than one)

A pimped PC that will be the base for all my VIs with tons of ram.. considering there are much more VIs on a PC and considering ram and components costs much less, I will be able to get the best of both worlds

[elan]

Originally Posted by 3phase

working on a mac makes the midi around the factor 10 more precise ..of cause only with capabel daw´s.. ableton live likes to place events where it wants sometimes..but that probably by bugs because its actually intended to have the finest resolution of all midi sequencers on the market.. however the midi implementation is still work in progress.. same applies probably to protools.

for midi you are actually best of with cubase. followed by logic... this on an apple with a modern os x should give pretty good results..

of cause also the midi interface matters..

ableton the finest? on what you base that?

MIDI implementation is still work in progress!?!?! that's a joke... not possible for a more than 30 years old protocol...

cubase, other people told me this... but can only be master and I need to slave it.

[systematika]

Originally Posted by maisonvague

I'm with systematika all the way on this.

I do most of my MIDI sequencing using old gear from the 80s/90s -- all non-USB. My primary workstation is a dual 2.0GHz G5 Powermac with a GeeThree Stealth Serial port to which I've connected a MOTU MIDI Express XT serial interface. I get excellent MIDI performance from this rig. This interface also serves as a MIDI patchbay. To program the XT interface for different MIDI configurations, I use a Powermac G4 running OS 9. With two serial ports available on the XT, both computers can access the MIDI interface AT THE SAME TIME which is VERY CONVENIENT for my workflow. I have yet to see a USB MIDI interface that will allow more than one computer to be connected to it at the same time.

The Powermac G4 also has an Audiophile 2496 PCI card attached with a single MIDI port which also delivers good MIDI performance.

I'm not recommending that you run out and buy a bunch of obsolete gear. Rather I'm sharing my own experience which is that working with outboard MIDI gear on modern USB-dependent computers CAN lead to all sorts of timing problems like the ones your describing. Not every one has them. Not everyone cares. But I had them. And I cared.

I checked out your youtube channel, your music is the illness. Synthpop is alive! Unfortunately, I wasn't alive during that time (born late 80s), but I love that era of synthesizer music the most. Mark Mothersbaugh and the Devo guys are a huge influence on me as well, especially on the general artistic side, and I noticed quite a bit of a Devo sound in your music as well which was nice.

With the keyboard shot, were you watching too many YMO videos? :P

[login]

is it possible to use the audiophile card just for MIDI while at the same time using another USB audio interface?

[systematika]

Originally Posted by login

is it possible to use the audiophile card just for MIDI while at the same time using another USB audio interface?

Yes, but you will have latency problems in the audio instead of latency problems in the MIDI. If you are monitoring analog before interface then it shouldn't be a problem. I don't know why you would use a usb interface if you had a card though. It's best to skip the whole schtick and get an emu 1616 or something which has quality I/O, decent converters, and MIDI I/O plus you get their proteus software with it... If you understand technical terms, please read the link I posted it'll give you all of the horrid stuff that USB does to data. It's good for mice, keyboards, and flash drives and that's it. You even get data jitter using usb which occasionally drops packets if it can't recover, and the power that USB puts out is barely enough to power the board the interface sits on. Always best to use balanced converters calibrated to line level and patch directly if it's line level or thru a pre/console if it isn't.

[3phase]

Sadly its no joke..ableton live dont supports sysex or the poly mode.. you cant call that a ready midi implementation.. they dont even have a midi thru functionality..only with complete audio latecy..and you ned to manually switch it ..no auto thru whatsoever

And you cant run a midi daw as rewire slave..first the main midi port access is from the master..everything else are rewire internal midi routings you aybe dont want to use when you after timing.


You can run external sequencers via timecode what gives you also offset variatons on each pass because the timcode normation is actually a bit loose regarding the time precission that has to be achived.

best results you do achive with a master synchronizer that alligns sampleclock and time base in external hardware and from that you sync your various computers and daw´s

The next ableton live version might be able to be propperly synced via midi clock what on a mac internal base should only produce minimal jitter than...when they finaly managed to do it right..sofar ableton live jitters heavily under midi clock even when the os delivers a stable allmost jitterfree clock.
good daw midi jitter jitter is +/- 1 sample.. you cant get less on a sampleclock based system..

I cant say for the actual versions, but in the past steinberg allways valued timing precission higher than emagic did it..And they have a complete midi implemetation.

logic is a bit loose timing wise..emagic allways was on the >1ms jitter side of things..its their human factor

so for timing you either go with a halfready buggy ableton.. or steinberg..



maybe just use a good ol atari.. has a pretty rough timing resolution of only 384 ppq but runs allmost jitterfree..even better than apples core midi that is with <0,2 ms jitter allready pretty good.. much better than the typical pc that does >= 2 ms

or the akai mpc 300 that gives the highest event precission but has a rough resolution aswell..384 ppq aswell..or was it just 192 ppq?

[systematika]

Originally Posted by 3phase

Sadly its no joke..ableton live dont supports sysex or the poly mode.. you cant call that a ready midi implementation.. they dont even have a midi thru functionality..only with complete audio latecy..and you ned to manually switch it ..no auto thru whatsoever

And you cant run a midi daw as rewire slave..first the main midi port access is from the master..everything else are rewire internal midi routings you aybe dont want to use when you after timing.


You can run external sequencers via timecode what gives you also offset variatons on each pass because the timcode normation is actually a bit loose regarding the time precission that has to be achived.

best results you do achive with a master synchronizer that alligns sampleclock and time base in external hardware and from that you sync your various computers and daw´s

The next ableton live version might be able to be propperly synced via midi clock what on a mac internal base should only produce minimal jitter than...when they finaly managed to do it right..sofar ableton live jitters heavily under midi clock even when the os delivers a stable allmost jitterfree clock.
good daw midi jitter jitter is +/- 1 sample.. you cant get less on a sampleclock based system..

I cant say for the actual versions, but in the past steinberg allways valued timing precission higher than emagic did it..And they have a complete midi implemetation.

logic is a bit loose timing wise..emagic allways was on the >1ms jitter side of things..its their human factor

so for timing you either go with a halfready buggy ableton.. or steinberg..



maybe just use a good ol atari.. has a pretty rough timing resolution of only 384 ppq but runs allmost jitterfree..even better than apples core midi that is with <0,2 ms jitter allready pretty good.. much better than the typical pc that does >= 2 ms

or the akai mpc 300 that gives the highest event precission but hat a rough resolution aswell..384 ppq aswell..or was it just 192 ppq?

Jitter isn't the problem. It's latency.

I barely get any jitter in live. If you get jitter, it isn't the program, it's your devices and how they communicate. Either way, your jitter still won't be too bad if you solve the communication problem. The program will generate perfect clock every time, if it didn't our computers would run pretty poorly and they'd be piss poor calculators...

[3phase]

Originally Posted by systematika

Jitter isn't the problem. It's latency.

I barely get any jitter in live. If you get jitter, it isn't the program, it's your devices and how they communicate. Either way, your jitter still won't be too bad if you solve the communication problem. The program will generate perfect clock every time, if it didn't our computers would run pretty poorly and they'd be piss poor calculators...

do you know that you dont get jitter or do you just think that? and have you measured it?..

its funny that so many people think that ableton problems must allways be user errors.. have you forgotten the around 1000 fixed L8 bugs?

Live is pretty precise up to the moment when it gets shaky because of latency compenstaion bugs or whatever..than you need to relaunch the program to enable stable midi event placement again.. its pretty crappy from a professional standpoint..but the intention is to have it precise.. like allways everything is only half implemented. Or not ready yet.
From the basic intention it could be an allmost scientivic tool for midi.. but without even the slightest try for an event editor? But theoretical it could be fine..one day.


Regarding the jitter on incoming midi clocks that is generated inside the program itself ableton now applied some cosmetics no that give more stable results. But would be of cause better when tempo calculations would be done on the base what the computer core midi services deliver andnot somewhere inside a shaky daw where you need heavy rounding to get results you would have got at the source without rounding at all...

you can see that in natives instruments reaktor that achives with a 1 second smoothing perfect results of +/- 0.00 bpm on a stable midiclock.. ..while abletons beta need 3-4 seconds to achive a +/- 0.01 bpm precision.. what is much better than the the +/- 0,5-0,8 bpm precission you usually got before when clock slaving live..

lives clock output is good. reaction to timecode became better but is still not blessed with a stabel offset handling..but much better than befoer wher you easily could be 20 ms off..

however..when you want highest precisioon you cant really clockslave anyway because any clock jitter and interpretation jitter will be added to the internal midi output jitter..

however..inside a mac a clock slaved ableton would be with all clock jitters still be better than the 2 ms on pc...

so the biggest advancement for midi precission is actually the apple core midi ..and aslong nothing like that happens in the windows world one dont has much option when precise midi is important.

[Jauqq]

Originally Posted by 3phase

of cause also the midi interface matters..

This.

In the past i've posted a few results of some midi timing tests i'd ran using different sequencers. I came to the conclusion that sequencing on a Mac using a Unitor 8 could be pretty good. However i've recently been further testing, but this time checking how multi midi out ports are addressed.
I had Hinton Instruments make me up a neat little box where i can plug two midi cables in, and then run two audio cables out so as to record midi data as audio pulses. As the unit is just wires working at the speed of light, no conversion time/latency is added. Just the same as making a midi plug to audio jack cable.
I reran my Unitor 8 test, sending from 8 midi tracks of 16ths in Logic 9, to the eight ports on the Unitor 8. I took audio recordings from ports 1 and 8, and then checked the difference between each track in the sample editor. The timing between port 1 and 8, was that port 8 was behind port 1 by around 7ms. If i muted tracks 2 to 7, thus no longer sending to ports 2 to 7 on the Unitor, the delay between ports 1 and 8 dropped to around 1ms. Therefore you could not compensate for the delay with a track parameter.
The Unitor 8 was crap then....
I then ran the same test with a Motu Express 128 USB interface, which I bought brand new on a gamble. I installed the latest Motu drivers, and ran the exact same test again. This time there was NO DELAY between midi ports 1 and 8 on the Motu. The audio recordings start waveform for midi note on data lined up perfectly, as did the second byte for the note off data. The same test was carried out in Live 8, and again the same results. Now i've established that the Motu sends midi note on/off data simultaneously across its midi ports, i'll be checking jitter. But i can say that so far early checks seem to indicate a value of around 1.5ms - 2ms worst case. Most of the time it's actually smaller than this.

To be fair i also ran the same test, checking for parallel transmission across midi ports on my Notator + Atari/ Log3/ Unitor2 setup. There two was delay between ports Atari main out A, and Unitor2 port F of around 2.5ms - 3ms. I checked other ports and found jitter to be around 1ms, while other ports would jitter by worst case 2.5ms.

I believe the result i've so far found for the Motu Express 128 are all down to the MTS drivers (Midi time stamping drivers) OSX core midi is meant to support this at OS level, but unless the Midi interface itself has this capability it'll just act like any other dumb MIDI device, and midi events will be sent out as quickly as they arrive and can be serviced.

I've added two pics.. the first shows the difference in timing for note on data between ports 1 and 8 on the Unitor8. Top track= port 1. And the second pic shows the Motu result, zoomed in to the sample level. Again two tracks showing ports 1 and 8.

[systematika]

Originally Posted by 3phase

do you know that you dont get jitter or do you just think that? and have you measured it?..

live is pretty precise up to the moment when it gets shaky becsue of latency compenstaion bugs..than you need to relaunch the program to enable stable midi event placement again.. its pretty crappy from a professional standpoint..but the intention is to have ot precise.. likeallways its only half implemented.

Regarding the jitter on incoming midi clocks that is generated inside the program itself ableton now applied some cosmetics no that give more stabel results. But would be of cause better when tempo calculations would be done on the base what the computer core midi services deliver andnot somewhere inside a shaky daw where you need heavy rounding to get results you would have got at the source without rounding at all...

you can see that in natives instruments reaktor that achives with a 1 second smoothing perfect results of +/- 0.00 bpm on a stable midiclock.. ..while abletons beta need 3-4 seconds to achive a +/- 0.01 bpm precision.. what is much better than the the +/- 0,5-0,8 bpm precission you usually got before when clock slaving live..

however..when you want highest precisioon you cant really clockslave anyway because any clock jitter and interpretation jitter will be added to the internal midi output jitter..

however..inside a mac a clock slaved ableton would be with all clock jitters still be better than the 2 ms on pc...

so the biggest advancement for midi precission is actually the apple core midi ..and aslong nothing like that happens in the windows world one dont has much option when precise midi is important.

Well I run Live on windows too and Live does run better there, it's the mac version of Live that has the issues.

Using a MOTU microlite, I can output sequence data directly from live into various pieces of equipment then track and after trimming latency it hits the down beat every time. If I had jitter to the extremes you say, it wouldn't do that.

AND that's with a USB interface. It's not even the OP's problem.