How to make soft-synths work as insert FX; DCAM/Xils-3 so I can use the filter etc???

[Simonator]

So, I keep stumbling on this thread intermittently:
Favorite Analog Filter Emulator AU/VST

... And being reminded that you can use DCAM/Xils-3 as an insert FX to make use of the filters.

I've finally just got around to trying to do this for the first time... but whilst the plugs open as insets, they just mute the audio I'm trying to pass through them.
I've been clicking around to no avail.

Can someone tell me how to make this work?


... Sure I could 'read the ****ing manual'... but what fun would that be?

[Simonator]

PS, I'm so badly jonesing for Cytomic 'The Drop'.

Roll on December.

[Yoozer]

No idea how it works with XILS, but I've just dropped DCAM's Cypher FX on a track in Ableton Live. I have two tracks - one playing a sampled loop with the CypherFX on it (Audio-1), and a MIDI track whose output is routed to Audio-1.

Press a key, and presto, it works! It's because of the volume envelope - pressing a key causes the gate to open and let the sound through.

Also, set the envelope sliders so that you have ADSR as 0-max-max-0 for everything.

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

No idea how it works with XILS, but I've just dropped DCAM's Cypher FX on a track in Ableton Live. I have two tracks - one playing a sampled loop with the CypherFX on it (Audio-1), and a MIDI track whose output is routed to Audio-1.

Press a key, and presto, it works! It's because of the volume envelope - pressing a key causes the gate to open and let the sound through.

Also, set the envelope sliders so that you have ADSR as 0-max-max-0 for everything.

Makes sense!

Cheers! I'll give this a go in a bit.

[Yoozer]

Also, thanks for your plugging of PolyKB. If it weren't for the facts that I really can't justify buying yet another plugin (I already have too much stuff) and the dongle, I'd be all over PolyKB. It sounds absolutely great.

[Primativ]

Read the effing Manual, stop clogging up the forum with this sh*t.

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by Primativ

Read the effing Manual, stop clogging up the forum with this sh*t.

Lol :-D

[Simonator]

Okay... so haven't tried this yet; need to finish my chores before the wife gets home


... But just thinking it through, and don't know how I'd start even doing what Yoozer suggests:


1.) In LOGIC, how do I send midi to an insert effect on a different track (Audio or virtual instrument.) in the manner suggested by Yoozer? Do I need to go into The Environment [Cue foreboding dissonant string music to indicate the building atmosphere of dread .].

2.) Specifically, what I'm trying to do right now is apply a filter as an insert on my MASTER channel... is it even possible to do whatever the solution to issue 1.) is, but on the master channel??

[bensaddiction]

Originally Posted by Simonator

PS, I'm so badly jonesing for Cytomic 'The Drop'.

Roll on December.

WOW - I hadn't heard they were bringing out something new, those demos sound fantastic for a plug & the choice of ms20 & SEM modelling is a great idea

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by bensaddiction

WOW - I hadn't heard they were bringing out something new, those demos sound fantastic for a plug & the choice of ms20 & SEM modelling is a great idea

I believe that Andy Cytomic was part of the FXP team that coded DCAM.

Clearly 'The Drop' is going to be on another level altogether... but for now, I'd really like to try this DCAM filter on and external audio source.

... finished my chores finally :-D going to have a go at tackling this problem shortly.


If anyone has any advice on the issues in my last post, that would be super-handy!!

[Simonator]

No joy :-(

I've found the 'Advanced Input Settings Menu' section of the Xils-3 manual... but whilst it explains what each knob does, I've still been unable to get any sound through it.

DCAM's waveform window is displaying the incoming audio, and I have the external input fader up on the DCAM synth's mixer... but no sound.


I figure in both cases, I need to do as Yoozer suggests & send it a note-on signal... but I haven't the foggiest idea how to do this, or even where to start researching that o_O


Anyone??

[Yoozer]

All I did in Live was look at the list of targets I could send MIDI out to, and I simply picked the correct one.

Don't vocoders work in a similar fashion? I mean, Prosoniq Orange has an internal synthesizer. How do you control that, if it's applied as an effect, on a different channel?

As a worst case scenario, see if you can just use the on-screen keyboard, and turn the release time all the way up. This is sort of like blowing at the ground really hard to keep a plane flying, but until you Read The Fine Manual, I can't think of another option.

[zerocrossing]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

Also, thanks for your plugging of PolyKB. If it weren't for the facts that I really can't justify buying yet another plugin (I already have too much stuff) and the dongle, I'd be all over PolyKB. It sounds absolutely great.

Odd. You're the first one to bring it up in this tread.

[zerocrossing]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

All I did in Live was look at the list of targets I could send MIDI out to, and I simply picked the correct one.

Don't vocoders work in a similar fashion? I mean, Prosoniq Orange has an internal synthesizer. How do you control that, if it's applied as an effect, on a different channel?

As a worst case scenario, see if you can just use the on-screen keyboard, and turn the release time all the way up. This is sort of like blowing at the ground really hard to keep a plane flying, but until you Read The Fine Manual, I can't think of another option.

Yeah, the key to it is making sure your midi is controlling your audio source and the effect source. Depending on your DAW, this might be tricky.

[Simonator]

Thanks for your continued assistance!!

Originally Posted by Yoozer

but until you Read The Fine Manual, I can't think of another option.

Ha... I have now read the manuals!!!

I think this is an issue with Logic I need to get my head around though, rather than DCAM/Xils-3

Originally Posted by Yoozer

All I did in Live was look at the list of targets I could send MIDI out to, and I simply picked the correct one.

Herein lies my issue... no idea how to do this in Logic... I suspect I need to do it in 'The Environment' [Dun Dun DAAAAAAAAN]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

Don't vocoders work in a similar fashion? I mean, Prosoniq Orange has an internal synthesizer. How do you control that, if it's applied as an effect, on a different channel?

In Logic, you'd open the vocoder as you would any other software instrument... and send it midi in the normal way.
It then gets an external audio signal via the sidechain input.

Hmmm... thinking as I type... Could it be that I need to open these synths AS INSTRUMENTS on their own channel... then send in a sidechain of my external audio. It seems unlikely, especially since they open as inserts... but worth a try at least!!

Originally Posted by Yoozer

As a worst case scenario, see if you can just use the on-screen keyboard, and turn the release time all the way up. This is sort of like blowing at the ground really hard to keep a plane flying, but until you Read The Fine Manual, I can't think of another option.

Tried that before. No joy.

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by zerocrossing

Odd. You're the first one to bring it up in this tread.

I guess I just should've sent this via PM - but it was absolutely not meant as "stop plugging it" - the thanks is/was genuine! I just read "XILS", Live was running anyway, so I fired up the PolyKB demo and couldn't find the filter effect he was talking about, but decided to post that anyway, I hope he doesn't mind.

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

I guess I just should've sent this via PB - but it was absolutely not meant as "stop plugging it" - the thanks is/was genuine! I just read "XILS", Live was running anyway, so I fired up the PolyKB demo and couldn't find the filter effect he was talking about, but decided to post that anyway, I hope he doesn't mind.

Don't mind at all!

I don't know if you can do this with the Poly-KB... but the Xils-3 is definitely supposed to allow an external audio source.

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by zerocrossing

Yeah, the key to it is making sure your midi is controlling your audio source and the effect source. Depending on your DAW, this might be tricky.

Yep, and it's definitely not this:

Originally Posted by Simonator

In Logic, you'd open the vocoder as you would any other software instrument... and send it midi in the normal way.
It then gets an external audio signal via the sidechain input.

Hmmm... thinking as I type... Could it be that I need to open these synths AS INSTRUMENTS on their own channel... then send in a sidechain of my external audio. It seems unlikely, especially since they open as inserts... but worth a try at least!!

... When opening DCAM as an instrument (as opposed to an insert.), the 'external audio' fader disappears from the internal mixer & is replaced by the 'noise' fader.

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

As a worst case scenario, see if you can just use the on-screen keyboard, and turn the release time all the way up. This is sort of like blowing at the ground really hard to keep a plane flying, but until you Read The Fine Manual, I can't think of another option.

... Okay... a baby step in the right direction...

When I first read this quote, I for some reason thought you were talking about the CAPS-LOCK keyboard (which opens on-screen.), which I had tried, but now I realise that you were probably talking about the miniature keyboard on the bottom of the soft-synth GUI... It just dawned on me that this exists.
... So, this DOES cause DCAM to allow sound through & function... the only issue now is that (even with D,S,R maxed on the amp envelope.), it will only work for a few fading seconds... then the keyboard needs to be pressed again with the mouse!!! ARGHHH!!

[Simonator]

Dang that was harder than it should have been!

Ultimately found the answer here

(For DCAM at least)

So, the 'effect' needs to be opened as an instrument, on its own dedicated instrument channel... but from the instrument drop-down menu, open as an 'AU midi-controlled effect' instead of 'AU instrument'.

You then have to send it a constant midi note.

Then send your audio into the sidechain input... only this is a convoluted process as Logic wont let you do this directly.... so you need to send it to a buss, route the buss's audio to nowhere (so you don't here the dry signal), then select that buss as the sidechain input on the DCAM synth.



Insanely complex way of setting up a filter plug-in!


I still can't get Xils-3 working though.


Thanks to everyone for their help!

[HomeProducer]

Cool ... I was about to look for the same thing.
I wanted to control a vocoder or vocal transformer.

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by HomeProducer

Cool ... I was about to look for the same thing.
I wanted to control a vocoder or vocal transformer.

Doh... I shoulda waited a day & read your thread!


As said earlier in this thread, I think you'd just open a vocoder as a regular instrument though.

[HomeProducer]

Originally Posted by Simonator

Doh... I shoulda waited a day & read your thread!


As said earlier in this thread, I think you'd just open a vocoder as a regular instrument though.

for the (outstanding!) freeware TAL vocoder (I also have the EIOSIS) you chose one source to be the left channel and one the right channel. Very simple. but for the EIOSIS one ... lets see. i should read more manuals, but I have way too many plugins to work on.

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by HomeProducer

for the (outstanding!) freeware TAL vocoder (I also have the EIOSIS) you chose one source to be the left channel and one the right channel. Very simple. but for the EIOSIS one ... lets see. i should read more manuals, but I have way too many plugins to work on.

Hmmm... been a while since I fired up a vocoder. I have the Logic one, Ableton one, N.I. one (Actually dead good, no idea why they discontinued this, same with the Spektral Delay.). I'll have to try them out some time soon.

[Vectorman]

Originally Posted by Simonator

I believe that Andy Cytomic was part of the FXP team that coded DCAM.

Clearly 'The Drop' is going to be on another level altogether...

Yeah, from what I understand, Strobe originally began as Andy's go at modeling his SH-101, then kind of spun off from there. I do like Strobe's filter - Fun stuff to step through different filter responses via a modulator synced to tempo - almost reminds me of stepping through one of the PPG wavetables that has more abrupt-sounding transitions (well, sort of).

The Drop is sounding cool. Andy suggested in a KVR thread that CPU speeds aren't sufficient to be able to run The Drop polyponically as part of a complete synth design right now - apparently it's a lot more demanding than the filters in Synth Squad. Maybe in a few years we'll see his new filter experiments pop up in a new synth, whether under the FXpansion or Cytomic banner, once those 10GHz multicores hit the streets, LOL.

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by Vectorman

CPU speeds aren't sufficient to be able to run The Drop polyponically

I'm assuming this is a simple typo, and it was meant to read polyphonically... but even still, I don't get what this would mean... even if the CPU could run it. How would a filter be polyphonic... something like multiple self oscillating bands?
... Or is this just intended to mean multiple instances?

Damn, I can't wait until December.

Until then, I'm glad I've finally figured out how to use the DCAM filters on an external source.

[Vectorman]

Yep, typo, LOL.

What I meant was having filter models from The Drop incorporated into a complete polyphonic softsynth.

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by Vectorman

Yep, typo, LOL.

What I meant was having filter models from The Drop incorporated into a complete polyphonic softsynth.

Wow, that is interesting... I hadn't ever thought about it, but just assumed it wouldn't make a difference if the input was monophonic or polyphonic.

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by Simonator

2.) Specifically, what I'm trying to do right now is apply a filter as an insert on my MASTER channel.

... So, it seems it is not possible to use DCAM as a filter on the master.


The only way I can think of is to have a buss containing all the master channel plugs that would be in the chain prior to the filter, and send all your tracks to this as though it where the master.
Then, Use DCAM on a virtual instrument track of its own... and route your entire mix as a sidechain input from the aforementioned buss into DCAM, then back out to the master.


Question; whilst this is obviously unconventional... is there any reason in terms of sound quality why this should not be done?... It just feels like a horrendous audio-crime to route my entire mix through a sidechain input... but in the DAW realm is that just still 100% pristine 24 bit PCM, and no different from routing it through a buss?

[Xavier]

Originally Posted by Simonator

Dang that was harder than it should have been!

Ultimately found the answer here

(For DCAM at least)

So, the 'effect' needs to be opened as an instrument, on its own dedicated instrument channel... but from the instrument drop-down menu, open as an 'AU midi-controlled effect' instead of 'AU instrument'.

You then have to send it a constant midi note.

Then send your audio into the sidechain input... only this is a convoluted process as Logic wont let you do this directly.... so you need to send it to a buss, route the buss's audio to nowhere (so you don't here the dry signal), then select that buss as the sidechain input on the DCAM synth.



Insanely complex way of setting up a filter plug-in!


I still can't get Xils-3 working though.


Thanks to everyone for their help!

Hi Simonator,

I agree that the way Logic is working with MIDI-controlled FX is strange and you wroe a good explanation thanks.

Here is how I use the XILS 3 as an FX (I tried it today with the LE but it should work also with the fulle version) :
_ I create an instrument track, insert the XILS 3, but use the MIDI controlled FX menu, not the instrument menu
_ Create an audio track (or an other instrument track with an other synthesizer)
_ Within the XILS 3 windows, select your audio track (or the other intrument track) in the sidechain menu.

Hope it helps

This can be used with any MIDI controlled FX, vocoders or other

Here is a simple project made with two XILS 3 LE (I didn't know how to remove the audio file, so just ignore it)
https://www.xils-lab.com/audiosample/divers/testXILS 3 LE EFX.zip


Best regards