Seriously Considering a MiniMoog Model D

[sftd]

This is just totally ridiculous really.

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[fooloof]

Originally Posted by Lumin One

the point he is trying to make is that if you arent already familiar with the way one sounds, then you arent going to be able to tell the difference if the minimoog is "better" or not.

that casio may sound amazing to someone who only knows how that sounds. just because a p5 comes around doesnt mean shit. if you can get a great sound from that casio and nothing useable from the p5, what does that mean?
i could make the most boring sound with a minimoog and make the most amazing patch with a voyager, and tell you to choose which one sounds better and of course you would choose the voyager because of how amazing it sounds. this is the reason why i told you to spend some time with that synth before you decide it isnt right for you.

if you knew how to get a dope bass sound out of the voyager, and along comes a minimoog, and you can get a better bass out of it, then by all means. you are making an educated decision.
if you dont know how to work a voyager, then how do you think you can get something with a minimoog? it doesnt create magic on its own.

well, I've got to learn (synthesis) either on the Voyager or the Moog. Some posts have indicated that the Moog is easier to learn on; and, since it sounds better than the Voyager (again from online examples), then I might as well have the best I can get. as dope a patch as you can make on a Voyager, indications seem to be that it will be that much better on a Moog, excuse me, Model D.

[Dave Peck]

Originally Posted by Acid Mitch

I'm picturing it, but none of what you said addresses what I didnt understand and misses the point.
I'm also picturing you not being a Voyager owner/user



Yes , this can be annoying - unless your using a Voyager
If you tweak a knob and the value jumps to something different , its easy to get the value back ,as the display tells you what the original value was.
If you need to tweak knobs as part of a performance, just put the knobs in the correct positions before you start.It doesnt take long at all. You'd be doing the same with a synth with no patch memory anyhoo. It's all quite fast,easy and not confusing once you've worked with a Voyager for half an hour.

Actually I'm quite familiar with this issue. I've used lots of synths that use 'absolute' update mode (which can cause the value jumps) and lots of synths that use the 'hook' update mode (which ignores the knob movement until it passes and 'hooks' the value). I prefer the hook mode by far. I find it much better for live tweaking. But others are free to have a different preference.

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by Arcadia

Experience. And having seen people exactly like yourself (based on your comments and thread contributions so far) do just what you're doing - looking for some illusory solution to make the music they will most likely never make because they don't yet know enough about the technology or playing an instrument. Your search for gear will go on and on until you get to grips with what you've got and start actually doing something with it.

keep thinking you know everything.

[Lumin One]

gotcha. well get the model d then. its what your heart truly wants. nothing wrong with that.
i just think that the ones who decided to get in on the discussion here wanted to fully prepare you for what comes with owning a model d.

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by supersuper

In my experience i thought that the original minimoog model d sounded distinctly "older" and perhaps more "expensive".

Also i recommend that you listen to examples of both synths on youtube regardless of the audio degradation that will occur; assuming you actually get one of the two synths and write something that other actually want to listen too it is likely that the majority will do so on the tube.

i have the voy already. have listened to several clips, all of which favor the model d.

[Arcadia]

Originally Posted by fooloof

keep thinking you know everything.

My knowledge is not in question here. Yours is.

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by Arcadia

My knowledge is not in question here. Yours is.

your knowledge about me is very much in question, which is what I was referring to. so far, you have added absolutely nothing helpful to this thread. if you have some actual knowledge, then by all means, please share it! so far, all you've contributed was a personal attack based on incorrect assumptions. But some Model D patches would be great. Thanks.

[sftd]

Originally Posted by fooloof

keep thinking you know everything.

They never said they knew everything, or even came across that way to me.

I don't think you have a wild ****ing clue how to even begin to write a song, so what is your goal? Are you going to go to synth meetups and show that you have the phattest zoundz on tha block? Why is this legenery PHATT S0UND so God awful important to you?

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[fooloof]

Originally Posted by Lumin One

resentment about what?
i dont know about the other folks here but personally, i have a voyager. i can have a minimoog right now if i wanted one.
folks are trying to help you here. you arent understanding that.

how are you being helpful? nothing helpful in your posts so far. if you had read my OP, you should have gathered that I already do have SOME idea of what these units sound like. they are based on online examples, and now I would like to compare them for real.

based on what many have said, the Model D is actually easier than the Voyager to learn synthesis on. So, your comment about being content with what I have doesn't make sense. it's no skin off your nose, either way. not your money, and if I decide to sell it later, the Model Ds hold their value very well.

if you want to help, then post some patches!

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by sftd

They never said they knew everything, or even came across that way to me.

I don't think you have a wild ****ing clue how to even begin to write a song, so what is your goal? Are you going to go to synth meetups and show that you have the phattest zoundz on tha block? Why is this legenery PHATT S0UND so God awful important to you?

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weren't you the guy that jumped in with how this thread is "ridiculous"? then why are you still here? what is your motive? do you have patches? otherwise, why don't you get back to songwriting?

[fooloof]

this thread is out of control. please...no advice, only patches, which is what I asked for in the first place. i will no longer be responding to the flame posts. so, if there are patches, great! and thank you. if not, then the thread should die a very quiet death. thank you very much.

[Codeslave9000]

Originally Posted by CoolColJ

I'm also semi-interested in this as well, just sold my Mini

Yup. Been having a blast with a recently bought one too! It's travelling with me this weekend to play live for the first time.
C

[BTByrd]

Originally Posted by fooloof

everything is relative, no?

No.

But I'm not here to argue metaphysics.

The point is simple: if you can't tell whether or not a Voyager is "fat" unless it's also sitting beside a Model D, you're doing it wrong.

You wrote: "I am not looking for the Mini sound as much as I am looking for a synth that has that fatness and warmth. maybe it can only be found in the Model D."

Go stand in front of your Voyager. The synth before you either sounds "fat" and "warm" - or it doesn't. Close your eyes. Use your ears. Turn some knobs. Did it get you there?

[sftd]

Originally Posted by fooloof

weren't you the guy that jumped in with how this thread is "ridiculous"? then why are you still here? what is your motive? do you have patches? otherwise, why don't you get back to songwriting?

Sorry m8 I don't write songs must have me confused with sum1 else

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[shaft9000]

it is ironic how people always forget that Bob Moog very much designed the Voyager personally, while with the minimoog Bob didn't have any direct input on the protos; the mini was designed and proto'ed by Moog employees while Bob was trotting around the country trying to sell behemoth 55 Modulars and the like.
The mini was the result of of bored Moog staff sitting around waiting for orders to come in, not Bob Moog thinking 'a-ha' and rolling up his sleeves as many would prefer to believe.

"I built the minimoog in my lunchtime from junk I found in the attic at Trumansburg." Bill Hemsath, Moog Employee.
source: Analog Days, Pinch & Trocco

[Malkit]

Originally Posted by shaft9000

The mini was the result of of bored Moog staff sitting around waiting for orders to come in, not Bob Moog thinking 'a-ha' and rolling up his sleeves as many would prefer to believe.

Nice point, Shafties.

I forgot that bit of history. In fact, more than Hemsath, Gene Zumchak was responsible for the design of the first portable monosynth. He had some differences with Bob Moog, though, and was fired after Moog was purchased by RA Moog.

His design was then lifted circuit-for-circuit from the blueprints and put into a different case/leyboard; big Moog sticker slapped on top. Gene doesn't get much mention or credit, but he was really the inventor behind the synth that would eventually inspire the Minimoog.

[shaft9000]

Aaah, that's interesting - in the book Zumchak is mentioned briefly but not nearly as much as Hemsath. They do say Zumchak pushed hard from the get-go for Moog to produce something portable and mass-produce-able, but it doesn't say much else other than he left the company prior to release of the modelD.

thanks Malkit

[Yoozer]

Eh, OK. Now that I finally have a few minutes to spare I can perhaps offer some actual advice, even though I don't own a Mini and I'm not entirely clear on what some of the buttons do, but I'll do my best to guess.

Right, let's start with these glorious giant panels in the attachments! GS resized everything a bit, so I hope you can still read it all. I've cut away the touchpad of the Voyager as it was taking up horizontal space and it's obviously not there on the Mini.

Let's compare and contrast. I'll refer to the Voyager as Voy, and to the Model D as Mini, even though it's a Minimoog Voyager.

OUTPUT:

You see a few extra options with the Mini; one of them is an A440 switch. If you hear a continuous beeping sound, that one's on; it's a simple oscillator so you can tune the Mini properly after it has warmed up.

Which brings me to the first part: tuning. When I switch on my Voy Old School, it takes about a minute to warm up and get in tune. Depending on the condition of the Minimoog you may want to switch it on and wait 10 minutes or so so everything's nice and warm and tuning is reliable. Your mileage may vary, but this is not entirely uncommon for vintage synths.

It has a switch for the main output - this way you can quickly change patches by moving all the knobs and audition with your headphones if it's not some horrible noise. You don't have to change the main volume, thereb possibly pissing off the engineer who just carefully set up the mixer.

MODIFIERS:

On the Voy these are properly split up and labeled as FILTERS and ENVELOPES. This block on the Mini contains the filter, filter envelope and volume envelope.

Envelopes, Envelope Generators (EGs), ENV, ADSR - all the same thing. Hit a key, and it starts a trajectory from zero to the top to zero again - compare it with a rollercoaster. Envelope generators don't make a sound; they're essentially robots that move a knob for you really fast. In the case of the filter, that's the cutoff knob, and in the case of the volume, it's the amplifier knob (oscillators on analog synths never stop making sound; when you hear nothing the volume's just turned down to zero).

What should you set it to? Well - to compare snappiness of the envelopes (the speed required to get at full volume) you want the attack set to as low as possible on both units. It's also possible to add some "twang" by turning up the filter attack a little bit and turning the sustain level and decay time all the way down - that way you get a quick whip-crack effect.

But what now? There's only Attack, Decay and Sustain on the Mini and Attack, Decay, Sustain and Release on the Voy.

For bass and lead sounds, release isn't always desired. The synth should stop playing when you release the key. On the other hand - what about sounds that emulate the plucking of a string? (which is what a lowpass filter is useful for; a guitar's string stops vibrating and its sound loses its higher frequency content and you can emulate this with a lowpass filter and an envelope). It keeps on playing after you've released the key, but it dies down eventually. That's where the Decay switch on the left hand side comes in; if I recall correctly that keeps the envelope following its trajectory after you've released the key.

So, you don't have as many possibilities with the Mini's envelopes, but that depends on the sound. Turning up the Voy's attack and release essentially gives you a monophonic pad sound or, if combined with the noise oscillator, a jet plane or surf effect, but hey - it's about those funky basslines anyway.

Lots of lead sounds are "constant". It's sort of clinical to have nothing happen to the volume or filter cutoff while you're playing, but that's because you should play with expression - boring melodies need not apply.

Lots of bass/plucked string sounds use a low sustain level and a short decay. For plucked sounds, you want the volume envelope to act in tandem with the filter envelope (e.g. eventually the sound should fade away completely), for droning bass it works well if the filter envelope is pluck (ADS 0 40% 0) and the volume envelope is constant (ADS 0 100% 100%). If the filter cutoff is low, the bass will happily hum along if you keep holding the key.

For a comparison between a lead that's constant and a lead that's plucked, see :



At 0:46 you hear a constant lead sound.

At 1:30 you hear a "pluck" lead sound with a "twang" on the filter (slightly increased attack). You hear that when the player holds the note the volume eventually fades away.

This track is one of the blueprints for the solo lead work you hear on a boatload of hiphop albums.

In



you can hear the pluck lead even more clearly - starts around 1:32. There's no doubt on what happens when the key is held; the sound fades away.

The lead sounds are relatively simple for both - in the first video you hear a pulse, in the second you hear a saw.

FILTER (on the Mini, the label is in a smaller font on top. "Modifiers" is a good choice for a name for the panel - timbre and volume are adjusted (modulated) during time.

Cutoff and Emphasis on the Mini are Cutoff and Resonance on the Voy. Amount of Contour on the Mini is "Amount to filter" on the Voy.

The Voy has an extra knob here - "spacing" - if you want to compare with the Mini, make sure that this one's dead center. The Voy has dual filters and with Spacing you move their filter cutoff values apart.

To really make sure it's dead center on the Voyager, here's something you can test.

turn off all the oscillators in the mix section
turn the resonance up all the way
set the filter cutoff to 40%
set the KB CONT AMOUNT (Keyboard Contour Amount - cutoff increases with notes high up the keyboard, decreases with notes lower down the keyboard) to 100%
turn the AMOUNT TO FILTER completely

You're now hearing pure filter resonance - a sinewave. When you move the spacing knob, you hear two sinewaves detuning - that's the two filters. To make sure that it's dead center, turn it until you no longer hear the detuned effect and the notes are virtually identical, instead of playing an interval. Watch out - resonance is loud, so turn your speakers down.

This trick also should work on the Mini, and it shows how well the filter is tracking the keyboard. If you play a melody and it's off key, then filter tracking should probably be calibrated.

( Bonus points: on the Voyager, make the Duracell sound at the end of this commercial by turning up the release of the amplifier envelope, and enable noise in the mixer, set volume to 30% or so - play B3-F#3-F#4. )

Turning up the resonance however has an effect on the oscillator volume - it's turned down. If you want your bass to retain some power, don't turn it up too much - a bit of resonance gives the sloppy/wet effect already.

MIXER:
The mixer section on the Voyager and Mini are virtually identical; 5 switches, 5 volume controls. The Mini has a White/Pink noise switch - for an explanation, see Pink noise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - it's pre-filtered. The Voyager's mixer section is more clearly laid out IMHO.

OSCILLATOR BANK:

The Mini has switches for the waveform, the Voy has a knob that blends the waveform. The question "which waveform should I pick for which sound" is somewhat inane - it depends on what you do with the filter and to what extent you want it to cut through the mix. You can use the triangle waveform (all the way to the left on the Mini) for sub-bass at low octaves, but as a whistle/organ sound at high octaves.

For a smooth lead sound, set oscillators 1 and 2 (disable osc 3) both to triangle, and then set the range of oscillator 1 to '16, and that of oscillator 2 to '4 (the semitone knob should be at 0). Filter cutoff at 100%, both envelopes set up as constant (ADS 0 100% 100%). Enable glide.

If you turn the Mini's knobs 90 degrees clockwise, you nearly get the Voyager's oscillator section.

The Mini has an extra option - left of '32 there's the "Low" option, which gets us to the LFO. On the Voyager, you have the LFO on the left; on the Mini you don't have it unless you use Oscillator 3 for that purpose.

LFOs differ from oscillators in two ways, generally speaking:

- LFOs don't output any sound - they're just robots which keep moving the pitch knob for you
- LFOs work in the low-frequency domain (50 Hz and below). For filter/pitch modulation, you can still discern the modulation - it's like an insanely fast police siren - while at higher rates modulation becomes an extra tone. See also FM synthesis; it's based entirely on that concept.

The OSC 3 CONTROL option on the Mini (if I guess correctly) is meant to let the oscillator track with the keyboard.

If you use osc 3 as an LFO, it means that if this option is OFF, each note will have vibrato at equal speed. If it's on, it means that higher notes have a faster vibrato and lower notes have a slower vibrato. Compare speeding up samples of an opera singer.

One of the things that was pretty obvious in the Mini/Voy shootout was this:

- only enable oscillator 1 and 2
- set the ranges of these to '8
- set the waveforms both to 50% pulse (that's the 4th waveform from the left)
- now, turn up Oscillator 2's semitone knob until you no longer hear "beating" in the sound - both oscillators are at virtually the same pitch.

You might find that this is easier on the Voyager than on the Mini, and it's part of the charm. However, detuning is not automatically equal to fatness; in case of bass sounds having both the same waveforms at the same pitch may cause them to cancel eachother out. Which is where the 3rd oscillator comes in; by adding that, you have a good chance that most of the time 2 out of 3 oscillators are playing.

That's about it. Adjust the settings so that they're similar on both machines, don't just stick to one-oscillator comparisons, dare to experiment, and good luck in making a decision. I'm too tired to type even more.

And if you like this post, for all that is good and holy, please do not hit the quote button.

[Brian!]

Yoozer, you are way too nice

[sftd]

Yeah. He's pretty much the ****ing man.

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[controlvoltage]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

for all that is good and holy, please do not hit the quote button.

Sorry, I had to. Fantastic post.

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by sftd

Sorry m8 I don't write songs must have me confused with sum1 else

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you were saying how I can't write a song, so I figured you must be busy writing songs.

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by BTByrd

No.

But I'm not here to argue metaphysics.

The point is simple: if you can't tell whether or not a Voyager is "fat" unless it's also sitting beside a Model D, you're doing it wrong.

You wrote: "I am not looking for the Mini sound as much as I am looking for a synth that has that fatness and warmth. maybe it can only be found in the Model D."

Go stand in front of your Voyager. The synth before you either sounds "fat" and "warm" - or it doesn't. Close your eyes. Use your ears. Turn some knobs. Did it get you there?

some synths sound fatter and warmer than others; I would like to get the fattest and warmest possible.

[fooloof]

Yoozer, YOU DA MAN!!!!!

[fooloof]

I think it's pretty freaking sad when you come on here for help and get personal attacks, instead. I understand where A FEW people were coming from, but a lot of the comments had the tone of "you're a noob and have no business with a MiniMoog."

so what? I am a grown and have the money to buy one. Even if I just want to take the Moog around to Synth conventions to show it off, that is my business. why does anybody else care, except out of envy? I never called anyone out or said anything negative and fools just jumped in with all their BS. it's pathetic, really. Besides, these machines hold their value very well; so, even if it turned out to be too much synth for me, I can still get my money back.

Many thanks to Yoozer and those few others who were genuinely trying to help.

[SWAN808]

Originally Posted by fooloof

I think it's pretty freaking sad when you come on here for help and get personal attacks, instead. I understand where A FEW people were coming from, but a lot of the comments had the tone of "you're a noob and have no business with a MiniMoog."

so what? I am a grown and have the money to buy one. Even if I just want to take the Moog around to Synth conventions to show it off, that is my business. why does anybody else care, except out of envy? I never called anyone out or said anything negative and fools just jumped in with all their BS. it's pathetic, really. Besides, these machines hold their value very well; so, even if it turned out to be too much synth for me, I can still get my money back.

Many thanks to Yoozer and those few others who were genuinely trying to help.

honestly I think it was just a couple of posters who were taking a shot which I dont approve of...but I think the majority of people were trying to offer reasonable advice even if it wasnt what you wanted to hear so much....

I dont think for a second a Mini will be too much synth for you. Its Pretty basic compared to most sofystnths for example. I just hope that small difference in sound is worth the potential downsides you might experience as a relative newcomer to synths....because the Voyager is a pretty fat sounding instrument and much more amenable to modern usage...especially when you intert a overdrive Pre Filter and introduce the CP expansion modulators...there is a lot going for a Voyager...but I can understand why you like the Original Mini sound...

Perhaps you can understand that it is a unusual circumstance to have someone asking for very basic advice whilst simultaneously getting quite hung up on a relatively smaller issue in sound. Thats the contrast that created debate in this thread. I understand your point tho - sound is sound whatever the practical experience....Fortunately Yoozer is a very patient man and all ends well....

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by SWAN808

honestly I think it was just a couple of posters who were taking a shot which I dont approve of...but I think the majority of people were trying to offer reasonable advice even if it wasnt what you wanted to hear so much....

I dont think for a second a Mini will be too much synth for you. Its Pretty basic compared to most sofystnths for example. I just hope that small difference in sound is worth the potential downsides you might experience as a relative newcomer to synths....because the Voyager is a pretty fat sounding instrument and much more amenable to modern usage...especially when you intert a overdrive Pre Filter and introduce the CP expansion modulators...there is a lot going for a Voyager...but I can understand why you like the Original Mini sound...

Perhaps you can understand that it is a unusual circumstance to have someone asking for very basic advice whilst simultaneously getting quite hung up on a relatively smaller issue in sound. Thats the contrast that created debate in this thread. I understand your point tho - sound is sound whatever the practical experience....Fortunately Yoozer is a very patient man and all ends well....

cool beans. so what are the downsides, in your opinion? I am aware of a few: I need to get it retrofitted for MIDI (maybe the Kenton kit) and it might take a bit to warm up. I have perfect pitch so I am not worried about tuning it. Are there other things I may not have considered? thanks.

[seen-da-sizer]

Originally Posted by fooloof

I have perfect pitch so I am not worried about tuning it. Are there other things I may not have considered? thanks.

There is tuning and there is calibration. If the calibration is off, you will not be able to tune the synth. That means the either you or a technician has to calibrate it. When you are going the check the mini, make sure there is enough time for warmup. With your perfect pitch you should easy hear if something is off. Keep in mind these issues are all fixable, but allows you to ask for a lower sale price.

I would check if all the keys are working, and buttons and knobs are working and are not "scratchy". Don't forget the two wheels. User the mixer for checking if all three oscillator work (check them individually).

Get familiar with the prices for used Minis! Check the closed auction and ignore the "sellers on crack" and the outrageous BINs:

MOOG MINIMOOG MODEL D VINTAGE ANALOGUE SYNTHESIZER | eBay
Mini Moog Synthesizer | eBay

There have been quite a few that sold all below $3K! The ebay turn-around is quick, and some auction that are listed sold actually never get finalized. It pays off to track these over a longer time period.

There was a Minimoog for sale a couple of weeks ago on the GS classifieds, also around $3000.

It would help to get familiar with the Mini before if you can. Knowing what each button does allows you to do a better check. A user manual for the Model D:

http://www.stereotunes.com/pdf/Minim...n%20Manual.pdf

[SWAN808]

Originally Posted by fooloof

cool beans. so what are the downsides, in your opinion? I am aware of a few: I need to get it retrofitted for MIDI (maybe the Kenton kit) and it might take a bit to warm up. I have perfect pitch so I am not worried about tuning it. Are there other things I may not have considered? thanks.

Well I went into it a little before but yes its calibration but also some MInis are notoriously difficult to keep in tune. Also sometimes things inexplicably go wrong with 20-30 year old instruments...electronics etc...they take looking after and you want to be prepared to spend some money once in a while to keep it happy...for instance one of my vintage synths is on the blink which sometimes happens just when you want or need to use it. I fully expect the bill to be at least £200 and to be without it maybe for a month - this sort of thing sucks...
Keys mis-fire...pots become scratchy...just little irks like that...it can be really annoying if you are used to things just working and are trying to learn synthesis. I live with it because I like the tone - but when I started out with synths - I would have not wanted the hassle.

This is the benefit of newer analogues-they wont likely have these issues. Also the voyager has good MIDI (more options to control via midi than just note) and patch presets - which can help a lot with learning to get the most out of a instrument. There will be many many types of sound you can get out of a synth but unless you know how you will not get them. This is my other concern with you asking for a preset example for a Mini. Good patch design takes a while to learn. This is why I also recommended the Voyager for you to start with. Now I have been programming synths for a while - I would be confident I could get the best out of a Mini - but that is after spending some time playing with various subtractive style analogue synths...before - I would have got a Little Phatty (in my budget) because as a starter (like the Voyager) it has some great features that make synthesis much easier and up to date. I now have a Moog Source.