Seriously Considering a MiniMoog Model D

[CoolColJ]

Originally Posted by golden beers

midi kit warning:

i used one with a midi kit which bypassed the mod wheel!

anyone familiar with the D will know you need that for synthesis, not just for performance. it would only work over midi, which wasnt much of a problem for me because i had it all connected via midi and my master keyboard was right there. so i used the masters mod wheel to dial in fm etc. this did mean that i couldnt use glide. which pissed me off somewhat.

this was a kenton midi fit, but from what i underdtand from kenton the fit can be bypassed with a switch. which was true, except the mod wheel wouldn't do a thing. i actually think it was due to a poor installation rather than the kit itself but the point is:

midi isn't always the answer.

i'd be just as happy with a CV minimoog. this idea that midi is somehow easier than CV is not always the case. in fact the concept of control voltage is super simple. the only downside is the extra expence of the midi->cv / audio->cv interface. once you have that interface, connection is easy and cheap.

also as said, the minimoogs control serface is an extremely elegant design. a very good synth to learn the concepts of synthesis.

plus it sounds like the dogs bollocks

I had a Mini with a Kenton kit and the mod wheel worked fine
plus with a Midi kit, it's the only way you'll get the Mini's glide over midi. A Midi to CV convertor won't give you that distinctive Mini glide sound via remote, you have to use the converter's.

I would not recommend a Mini to a noob, due to the calibration issues you will have to deal with over time. Tuning them can take a good day, depending on the state of the synth off course.
Midi kit will need calibration too after a while.....

[golden beers]

Originally Posted by CoolColJ

I had a Mini with a Kenton kit and the mod wheel worked fine
plus with a Midi kit, it's the only way you'll get the Mini's glide over midi. A Midi to CV convertor won't give you that distinctive Mini glide sound via remote, you have to use the converter's.

I would not recommend a Mini to a noob, due to the calibration issues you will have to deal with over time. Tuning them can take a good day, depending on the state of the synth off course.
Midi kit will need calibration too after a while.....

thanks.!

like i suspected it must have been the fit rather than the kit.

as for moogs not tuning. that depends on the machine. some here will tell you their minis are quite stable.

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by Acid Mitch

It depends what sounds you want to make. There is a lot of overlap and both do things the other cant.(The Voyager can do much more than the Mini)
There is another thread where at least 2 of us could duplicate the sounds of an early Mini on our Voyagers.

That comparrison you mention isnt the best. Even the people doing it admit they could have got closer if they spent a bit more time.

can you post that link?

either way, I'm gonna stick with the Voyager. I've read enough to know that at least for now, the Mini is way over my head. Besides, I can get a prophet 08. if I shell out for a mini, I can't get anything else.

[shaft9000]

Originally Posted by fooloof

1. A Voyager isn't really a "Moog" to me.
2. no question in my mind, though. the Model D is simply fatter than the Voyager.

1. neither are most Model D's then. After the 1st 50-100 RA Moogs which are original, it's made by different companies (musonics etc..)

2. 'fatter' meaning what? lazy? heavy?

i've had my voyagerOS side-by-side with a later osc-board miniD and the miniD has more clipping in the mixer section, and a bit brighter static osc due to the ramp wave, as well as I could notice the waveshape shift slightly on a scope. This is why , i am certain, people assume the miniD to sound 'fatter' out the gate : it's not as stable and the 'rolling' sound of the osc-detune is therefore emphasised. This is easily achieved on the Voyager using LFO->wave modulation.
shove the voyager through a preamp w/ some decent volts behind it, and the difference all but vanishes. i have no desire for a clunky old limited model D since learning these techniques. ymmv.

[Acid Mitch]

Originally Posted by fooloof

can you post that link?
.

If I can remember which thread it was in, yes.

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by fooloof

thank you for the informative post. to clarify: i can't play something in the Mini, record it in my sequencer and then have it play back? what CAN you do with the midi mod?

I know you posted that you're not going to get it, but to answer your questions:

If you play something on the Mini CV/Gate means that you record two things:

- pitch
- note duration (note on/off)

If you have a CV/Gate interface hooked up to a Mini then having your sequencer play back MIDI to the Mini will make the Mini respond - but if you were tweaking the filter cutoff during play, none of that information is processed by the CV/Gate interface.

The term "mod" for "modification" is also understood to be invasive. I've modified my Juno-60 to use MIDI instead of DCB. This means that I got rid of the DCB connector and installed something different. In other cases, it means drilling holes in the case - to sum up, you change the physical appearance of the instrument (inside or outside).

If you add a CV/Gate interface, you connect the inputs of a Mini to a small box outside of it. You don't drill extra holes or stuff like that. I've an MP201 to make my Voyager OS respond to MIDI, but it's not a modification.

is the Silent Way mod expensive? thanks.

It is not a modification in that sense; more a proposal of what you'd need to convince a sufficiently capable tech to alter.

The short answer: yes.

The long answer:

Some background first:

On a synthesizer with memory (e.g. my aforementioned Juno-60, but also a Prophet 08, etc.) each knob will have a little monitor attached to it that can read and write the current position.

If you select a preset on a Juno-60, the microprocessor looks up "okay, he selected preset nr. 44. Set the LFO rate to 5, LFO delay to 2, the OSC to saw and pulse, the PWM to halfway, the mode to manual" and so on until each parameter that was stored is set.

However, if I was previously tweaking preset 43 and I moved the rate to 0 and the delay to 10, then the position of the slider does not match the actual position that it should have to make the sound. So if I move the LFO rate from 0 to 0.5 it quickly jumps from the in-memory position of 5 to 0.5. This is not pretty.

The non-PE Prophets have encoders. Encoders don't care what position they're in; when you turn the knob it doesn't tell the microprocessor in there "now moving to 53, now moving to 54, now moving to 53" like a potmeter does, but it says "now moving 1 to the right, now moving 1 to the left" so it doesn't matter which position it is - it adds or subtracts of the position that's in the memory of the synth. This is great in the sense that you never get the jumpiness as you have with the Juno, but encoders need to be of high quality to keep transmitting as intended (otherwise you turn the knob to the left and it will not always say +1, but sometimes -1, or -50 which is far, far worse).

Another solution is to work around it; before you play, move the knob or slider into its proper position. This is guesswork. Other solutions depend on the intelligence in the synth itself - "ignore until value is passed" or "scale the difference".

A 100% analog synthesizer with 100% analog control and no memory will have the knob bolted to a part of the circuitry. Turn the knob, and the value will directly change; there is no other way to change it than to use that knob.

You've seen the term "voltage controlled" for filters and oscillators. SilentWay is a system that lets your computer generate arbitrary voltages using the audio outputs (if you have a compatible audio interface).

Usually, that job is for the knob, which can be compared with a faucet: turn it wide open and the water pressure will be high, turn it down to a trickle and pressure will be low.

What my suggestion means is thus:

- buy a Minimoog
- hire a competent tech
- pay through the nose to get him to drill a shitload of holes in the Minimoog, essentially making every parameter patchable
- hook up a cable to each up cables to each of those holes
- hook up the other end of each cable to an audio interface that is compatible with SilentWay (a MOTU 828 mkII is cheap but only has 8 outputs, so you might need more of them to cover all parameters)
- draw automation on your computer, so that SilentWay can apply it to the Minimoog (allowing knob tweaks is again more difficult because you need something that reads the knob's position - the previous steps are all needed to make it "writable")
- hope you aren't found in a ditch with your brains blown out after suggestion step 3 after enraged synth fundamentalists find out about your act of sacrilege.

It'll cost at least as much as procuring the Minimoog in the first place, and the tech will most likely suggest that you seek someone else and that it's a really stupid idea and what the hell were you thinking.

But - it's a possible solution!

[seen-da-sizer]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

But - it's a possible solution!

LOL. A Voyager all the sudden doesn't look that bad, does it?

IMO the Model D is a perfect live performance instrument. Simple and easy to use. I wish more people would go back and use it live or multi-track actual playing.

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by seen-da-sizer

LOL. A Voyager all the sudden doesn't look that bad, does it?

Yes, but if you get told by the people in GS that a Voyager sounds like a VA, then you can't risk it, can you? I mean, to say that it doesn't is admitting that one's ears are full of bovine manure

IMO the Model D is a perfect live performance instrument. Simple and easy to use. I wish more people would go back and use it live or multi-track actual playing.

Reading how the glide doesn't work properly via MIDI/CV, I'd agree with that - and instead of obsessing over a dozen controls after the fact, just tweak, record, and commit.

Or go completely modular so you can automate everything.

[seen-da-sizer]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

Or go completely modular so you can automate everything.

Considering that a synthesizers.com can sound very close to the "D" and the 24-module rack system with three oscillators sells for less than $2700! I am at a point where I will give up on getting a Mini and go the dot com route. IMO any money more than $3000 for a Model D goes towards nostalgia and not towards sound.

[Yoozer]

Perhaps you can educate me on that matter, then - osc 1 and 2 on the Mini have a waveform that's between tri and ramp. To recreate this with a Q106 (or equivalent) - is that simply a matter of plugging in both outputs and mixing them, or is there something else going on?

While it looks purdy enough with the knobs, I don't know if there's any current manufacturer who specifically has as a goal that they aim to recreate a Mini in parts. Sure, lots of module builders have 4-pole transistor ladder lowpass filters, but is that all handmatched, all old-style tolerance stuff? MacBeth seems to be on the mark regarding that, but I think he's also going for his own style (and there's the matter of the output stage, which doesn't come in a box as far as I know).

Lastly, you'll never be able to convince yourself of the fact that it is a Mini, but it depends on how much weight you attach to that

[dlmorley]

Well, I have been underwhelmed by many synths in my time, but not a minimoog.
It is limited. What this means is that it is limited to making some of the best sounds an analogue synth can make. I have an R.A.Moog one and the filter is the smoothest and sweetest Moog style filter I have heard and on a par with a good 904a and the envelopes are musical and fast.

But if a Voyager is as good to you and more flexible, then in your world it must be.
In mine, it just plain isn't.

Also as far as reliability goes, I can't quite grasp this issue.
I can guarantee you that more voyagers have been back in the shop than minimoogs and almost any semi intelligent tech could sort out any problem a minimoog might have (the keyboards kind of suck I'll admit..)

But in the end if a Voyager makes the sounds you want then it's the synth for you.

And btw, the minimoog is certainly not my favorite analogue synth but it's rightly so a classic and well worth having.

[fooloof]

thanks for all the answers, guys. some very informative posts. just wondering, is it realistic (for Moog Music) to create a Model E? A mini made with old parts to create the authentic sound, but with improved technology to give it the functionality of today's synths? Is that something that's even possible? In short, the sound of the old Moog with the capabilities of a new Moog.

[seen-da-sizer]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

Lastly, you'll never be able to convince yourself of the fact that it is a Mini, but it depends on how much weight you attach to that

Of course it is a tradeoff! On one hand you get the modularity which you do not have on the "D". On the other hand you don't have all the wave forms and not the exact same filter. Ultimately if you want original, you have to go with the original.

Everyone has to answer for themselves, is it worth the extra mile!

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by fooloof

thanks for all the answers, guys. some very informative posts. just wondering, is it realistic (for Moog Music) to create a Model E? A mini made with old parts to create the authentic sound, but with improved technology to give it the functionality of today's synths? Is that something that's even possible? In short, the sound of the old Moog with the capabilities of a new Moog.

Adding functionality but building it old school just costs way too much and it all depends what you want from the synth.
A modular will give you not only amazing flexibility but also if you want it, a stripped down synth for sonic purists, but somehow not all of them actually do things as well as they should. It needs to be top notch IMHO.

The Ergonomics of the minimoog are near perfect. This for many is the most critical thing. On stage in the dark, it's all there where it should be. In the studio, it can get most sounds you might want (within it's range which is still HUGE) easily. If it didn't sound good, this wouldn't matter, but it does.
It's always musical. This is it's ultimate strength and asks you to interact. Not many synths can come close to it for these points.

[fooloof]

how much is this CV gate thing? I could live with not having automated filter control. Granted, I may change my mind once I get my Voyager (in the mail), but, based on the videos, I must have a Mini. It's not about having a "Minimoog"; it's about having that fat sound. DAMN.

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by fooloof

how much is this CV gate thing?

Kenton PR0 SOLO MKII

Granted, I may change my mind once I get my Voyager

So you're going to have that one on demo or buy secondhand and resell with minimum loss if it's not to your liking?

Please, post your experiences - I'm honestly curious to your findings and opinion.

[elijahbrown]

Originally Posted by Gringo Starr

Isn't the Voyager the last synth Bob Moog made?

I think he was around for the little phatty too. Anyways if you sequence everything thru your mpc then its probly best to go with the voyager.

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by fooloof

how much is this CV gate thing? I could live with not having automated filter control. Granted, I may change my mind once I get my Voyager (in the mail), but, based on the videos, I must have a Mini. It's not about having a "Minimoog"; it's about having that fat sound. DAMN.

The minimoog has a filter CV input. Just use an aux output from the Kenton and you have it anyway.

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by dlmorley

The minimoog has a filter CV input. Just use an aux output from the Kenton and you have it anyway.

are you saying I'll get MIDI and filter control with the Kenton? I just want to be clear: i want automated playback of notes, velocity and filters. will it work with an expression pedal? how much of this is possible with the Kenton?

maybe a better question is: from a Reasonable standpoint of purchasing a kit or a MOD, what is NOT possible with the Mini?

"reasonable", meaning $500 or less.

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by hmmm

Kevin Lightner does a midi kit that replaces the contact bars and offers wireless in/out as well But its hell expensive $595 + installation.

But you do get added benefits like no contact bars...

how much midi capability does it give the user? I would buy this, if necessary.

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by golden beers

with a basic midi kit you get note on off and pitch bend and modulation.

with CV you also get filter controll/modulation.

just had a look at the LMc, it's great but far from your ideal of being able to control every front panel option through midi...

.. with midi anything's possible but to control every parameter of a mini-moog would be a serious modification.

I wouldn't need to control everything. are you saying that the CV gives you filter control/modulation AND the note on off and pitch bend and modulation? or do I need a midi kit and also the CV for these capabilities?

[fooloof]

screw the Mini; I just found a Moog Modular for only $30K.

sale-hyzkp-2434410580@***************

[elijahbrown]

Originally Posted by fooloof

screw the Mini; I just found a Moog Modular for only $30K.

sale-hyzkp-2434410580@***************

DO IT

[CoolColJ]

This is the only song like thing I ever recorded with my midi'ed Minimoog Model D, in the 7 years I owned, just sold it last week.
Just haven't heard anything like that from a Voyager - and I 've played with one twice

It's doing the 3 oscillator open filter bass sound - dry , no eq, uncompressed and uneffected
Recorded live from it's keyboard. SH2 does the other closed filter bass
That's the Mini's strength, open filter pillow of sound

http://soundcloud.com/coolcolj/ccj-minimoog-sh2-a6


Now that it's gone, I have funds for a Oberheim Son of 4 Voice

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by CoolColJ

This is the only song like thing I ever recorded with my midi'ed Minimoog Model D, in the 7 years I owned, just sold it last week.
Just haven't heard anything like that from a Voyager - and I 've played with one twice

It's doing the 3 oscillator open filter bass sound - dry , no eq, uncompressed and uneffected
Recorded live from it's keyboard. SH2 does the other closed filter bass

http://soundcloud.com/coolcolj/ccj-minimoog-sh2-a6


Now that it's gone, I have funds for a Oberheim Son of 4 Voice

so, what capabilities did you have with it? how did they compare to a more modern synth (in terms of midi control)?

[CoolColJ]

The Midi kit allowed velocity to filter and volume, although it didn't feel right.
But you could assign controllers to the filter and volume and what not, all the usual midi stuff from 90s synths
I'd rather be doing it from the synth itself though and record it into the DAW, instant and smooth, controllers are just too coarse

The Mini has filter and volume inputs on the back so a Midi to CV convertor can control all that over midi as well, or you can run other LFOs and envlopes to do that.
I'm using Silent Way VST LFO via my soundcard to modulate my modd'ed SH2 here via it's filter CV input here
http://soundcloud.com/coolcolj/roland-sh2-and-silent-way-vst


Just don't expect total control, it's more hands on do it on the synth itself

[Retrofreak]

I have both a Voyager SE and a Model D.

If I could only choose one it would be the Voyager as it can do everything the Model D can and more.

[Yoozer]

So what's that Old School doing in your avatar picture then?

[Retrofreak]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

So what's that Old School doing in your avatar picture then?

I couldn't find the right picture of an SE, so I settled

[maisonvague]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

Another solution is to work around it; before you play, move the knob or slider into its proper position. This is guesswork. Other solutions depend on the intelligence in the synth itself - "ignore until value is passed" or "scale the difference".

This is one of the many little things I've always appreciated about the OB-Xa, which uses the "ignore until value is passed" method on its pots. To my knowledge, not many synths from that era did that.

Originally Posted by CoolColJ

I'd rather be doing it from the synth itself though and record it into the DAW, instant and smooth, controllers are just too coarse ...

Me, too. It's funny, once upon a time I remember reading about things like "zipper noise" ... "aliasing" on VAs and softsynths, etc. ... and thinking to myself "I don't get it. I don't hear any of those things!"But with experience my ear became more sensitive, more attuned.

Getting the best out of older synths with limited external control options requires a great deal of performance skill. I'm someone who actually enjoys that challenge, but it could be frustrating for others who prefer to program external control -- especially with MIDI !!!

My views are somewhat slanted at the moment because I'm going through a kind of personal Control Voltage Renaissance. After years of working mostly with MIDI and pre-patched synths I'm having an absolute blast playing around with my new patch panel SEM, a couple of Dark Energys and some other CV capable gear I recently picked up including a Little Phatty.

I really have to compliment Bob Moog on the design of the Little Phatty. The integration of modern digital with classic analog is so smooth on the Phatty. I would imagine it's the same on the Voyager (which I've not yet played). I would gladly take a Voyager over a Minimoog at this juncture.