live sound problem

[GlowMarrow]

hi all,
i never know what forum live sound stuff should go in, but this has to do w/ electronic music so hopefully this is the right place.
when i play live i sum all outputs from an mpc1000 and nord lead into a passive mixer and send the FOH the stereo out. normally there is no problem with this and we can generally dial in pretty good sound if we have 10 minutes or so to mess w/ levels. i played a show a few weeks ago at a venue w/ one of the better sound systems we've seen, but the electronics were extremely extremely quiet out of the PA. everything on my mixer was pretty normal, the master level is always unity and i just cut some of the bass cause they had a lot more subs than we are used to. there have been tons of big electronic acts that play there and get good and loud on the system.

depending on how they have their system set up, can there be an unreasonably low ceiling on how loud they can push my 2 bus out of my mixer as opposed to if i sent them all 8 outputs from my gear individually?

shouldn't pretty much any decent sound system be able to bump up a stereo signal to be sufficiently loud for the venue (which is actually pretty small for how big their rig is)?

it seems weird that we've never had this problem, i'm pretty sure it was just an inexperienced sound guy or something, but we got offered a good show there in a few weeks and i want to make sure we don't suffer from the same problem.

thanks!

[Konketsu]

The first thing that comes to my mind is that the FOH was concerned about fluctuating levels and kept your signal low to allow for headroom on the house system, but if that were the case he should have strapped a compressor across your channels and a limiter inserted on the mains.

Another thing could be the outputs on your mixer. If you gave FOH a pair of XLRs but were sending a line level signal, an inexperienced FOH may simply drop the XLRs into mic level inputs on the board without padding, and would see an alarmingly hot signal, which would probably cause them to roll back on the output level.

As both a performer and an FOH, I can tell you that the best things you can do as a performer are: a) get your dynamics under control by strapping a compressor across your mains; b) inform any house FOH that you are sending Line Level (if your mixer is doing so) and that they will need to pad their board input or run you through a pair of DIs, and c) work closely and communicate with the house FOH as best as you can, and let them know where the issues are. Assuming you have a good FOH, you should be able to dial everything in nicely during soundcheck. Unfortunately, there are a lot of clueless cowboys running sound rigs, particularly in venues that have electronic performers so be prepared to be polite but firm in your requirements.

At any rate, what happened at your last show should not have happened, because any FOH who was half-capable should have reached for a compressor to tame your levels if that was indeed the issue. If your levels are under control already, then yeah, chalk it up to some wet-behind-the-ears fader jockey without a clue. Talk to the venue and see if there is another FOH who can work on your next show there.

Best of luck.

[Teknobeam]

It's hard to give you an answer without knowing more about the input on the house system. Most systems these days will be DSP based and have DSP limiting on the outputs and often on the input stage as well along with respective crossover / filtering and EQ. etc. If it;s a venue that's geared for live entertainment then it might a variety of input choices (High Z low Z) The best thing you can do when you are about to play in a new venue is to check out their system in advance. Talk to the house tech if you can, let him or her know what you have. They may not see a lot of passive mixers...probably more used to the usual mackies or soundcrafts with some decent signal. It sounds like a gain staging issue. Also, if the tech was actually there and couldn't bump up your level, it could mean that he hasn't got access to the DSP. In any event, I'm surprised he couldn't solve it or at least sub mix it into another mixer first.

[GlowMarrow]

thanks for the input guys. i've had the problem of inexperienced sound guys treating xlr outs as mic level signals, so now i make sure to only use 1/4 inch into di's.

i think the problem was likely what konketsu said about the sound guy being conservative about levels to protect the equipment. we were also the first band and he got there super late, like 10 minute before we were supposed to go on so he may have just not had his stuff together.

i'm pretty anal about keepig the overall output of all my electronics consistent through songs. i've even gone so far as to use one kick sample and bass patch on my nord for all songs. our live set is more about vocals/guitar than anything else so it doesn't detract too much and it lets me tech just one sound and hopefully have it sound alright for everything. i compress the drum tracks out of my mpc w/ the interal compressor (the kick is on a different output) and that seems to tame most things. i tried our set w/ a dbs 266xl on the mains and it just completely ruined the kick so i've been staying away from compressors on the bus although i'm sure there are much better units i could be using.

i think the solution is just going to be being patient/nice but stern w/ the guy and pressing him to get me the volume we should be having.

for you guys w/ loads of live sound experience, is it just a general rule of thumb that the highs/high mids for sampled drums and synths are just waay harsher live? when we first started playing i got what i thought was a great mix in my treated room w/ decent mid-range monitors. and the first practice in our space w/ a normal PA system was like a robot raping my brain through my ears. i've also just seen tons of live electronic acts where hi-hats were just unbelievably painful, and any synths w/ a reasonable amount of upper harmonic content would just jump out of the mix and bury everything else.
is this just fletcher munson curves coming into action when i'm hearing the mix actually cranked?
there just doesn't seem to be too many great resources for info on live electronic music (if i'm wrong please point me in the right direction) so i'd love to just pick the brain of a few of the vets out there.

thanks!

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by GlowMarrow

for you guys w/ loads of live sound experience, is it just a general rule of thumb that the highs/high mids for sampled drums and synths are just waay harsher live?

No! The truth of the matter is very few live sound guys, including the "experienced" ones, are competent system tuners, or even properly proficient with the channel parametric on the mixing desk. With todays excellent systems, there isn't really much excuse for it. Time and time again, things are harsh, loud, muddy, etc. Sometimes it's the whole mix, sometimes any number of mix elements that suffer. There are certain exceptions for physics, nobody has a good sounding show at the Rosemont Horizon (Allstate Arena), LA Sports Arena, etc, but there are just not many great live guys out there. Wish it was different, but it is an unfortunate fact. There are some very pleasant surprises from time to time, but not enough of them.

[Konketsu]

Well, if the FOH is showing up 10 minutes before curtain I think you've identified the source of the problem…dfegad

As for a compressor, I'm not surprised that you were unsatisfied with the 266xl. That said, there are plenty of options and you are limited only by budget. On the cheap, I've used (and use regularly) an FMR RNC in supernice hitting 2-4 dB gain reduction at around a 10:1 ratio, but of course that really is dependent on program material. On the more expensive, an EL Fatso is awesome in a live setting.

The thing to remember with live sound is that every room is going to sound different and more often than not it will sound different in a bad (or unintended) way. This is where things get really tricky, and this is where you have both compromises and decisions to make.

The first thing to ask yourself is if you are more of a muso or an tech. If you have the tech chops (and in particular strong live sound chops) a 31 band graph goes a long way, not as a tonal shaper, but as a correctional device for less-than-ideal acoustic spaces and poorly set up house sound systems. Of course, this is where the compromise comes in vis à vis the sounds that you have so carefully sculpted in the studio.

If you are more of a muso and your band is pulling good numbers @ the door and getting some decent income, you may want to talk with your bandmates and discuss hiring your own FOH engineer who has the chops and can get your sound and mix dialed for the show. If you go this route, forgo your stage mixer and send everything to FOH on separate lines, because your FOH engineer will be able to do amazing things with that, assuming you get a good one who "gets" your music and you are confident in their abilities (and this is important) in many different settings using different gear.

Also, check out LivePA.org if you haven't already. There is some good information there regarding live electronic performance, and a pretty solid signal to noise ratio as well.

If you have other questions or want to pick my brain, Pm me.

[Teknobeam]

Originally Posted by GlowMarrow

thanks for the input guys. i've had the problem of inexperienced sound guys treating xlr outs as mic level signals, so now i make sure to only use 1/4 inch into di's.

i think the problem was likely what konketsu said about the sound guy being conservative about levels to protect the equipment. we were also the first band and he got there super late, like 10 minute before we were supposed to go on so he may have just not had his stuff together.

i'm pretty anal about keepig the overall output of all my electronics consistent through songs. i've even gone so far as to use one kick sample and bass patch on my nord for all songs. our live set is more about vocals/guitar than anything else so it doesn't detract too much and it lets me tech just one sound and hopefully have it sound alright for everything. i compress the drum tracks out of my mpc w/ the interal compressor (the kick is on a different output) and that seems to tame most things. i tried our set w/ a dbs 266xl on the mains and it just completely ruined the kick so i've been staying away from compressors on the bus although i'm sure there are much better units i could be using.

i think the solution is just going to be being patient/nice but stern w/ the guy and pressing him to get me the volume we should be having.

for you guys w/ loads of live sound experience, is it just a general rule of thumb that the highs/high mids for sampled drums and synths are just waay harsher live? when we first started playing i got what i thought was a great mix in my treated room w/ decent mid-range monitors. and the first practice in our space w/ a normal PA system was like a robot raping my brain through my ears. i've also just seen tons of live electronic acts where hi-hats were just unbelievably painful, and any synths w/ a reasonable amount of upper harmonic content would just jump out of the mix and bury everything else.
is this just fletcher munson curves coming into action when i'm hearing the mix actually cranked?
there just doesn't seem to be too many great resources for info on live electronic music (if i'm wrong please point me in the right direction) so i'd love to just pick the brain of a few of the vets out there.

thanks!

The volume issue is a separate issue from the overall sound quality issue. You needed more SPL and it wasn't provided for your performance via the house system for whatever reason. A decent house rig will have brick wall limiting to protect the transducers so EQ harsh or not doesn't matter.

But the EQ issue is always going to deviate from system to system. What sounds good on one system as you have discovered might sound a lot different on another one. Without a sound check and someone to evaluate the mix out front you need a very good sound guy that can dial it in very quickly (within the first tune). And for that, he also has to care enough to want to do that.
However, it's also possible that providing him with a pre mixed feed from the stage reduces his ability to deal with individual elements as well.

[Pier]

Originally Posted by Beyersound

No! The truth of the matter is very few live sound guys, including the "experienced" ones, are competent system tuners, or even properly proficient with the channel parametric on the mixing desk.

I've had the same experience in many occasions...

Last thing they did to me was connect my stereo output to a mono converter with one channel inverted.... massive failure. For like half an hour I was djing and going back and forth between the booth, the PA mixer on backstage, the audience trying to figure out wtf was wrong.

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by Pier

I've had the same experience in many occasions...

Last thing they did to me was connect my stereo output to a mono converter with one channel inverted.... massive failure. For like half an hour I was djing and going back and forth between the booth, the PA mixer on backstage, the audience trying to figure out wtf was wrong.

I hear you, sorry that happened. It seems that is another facet in the world of live sound. There are far too many operators who are merely "sound guys", and not proficient in the "engineer" skillset. Good basic "audio 101" knowledge would have kept that situation from happening. It really diminishes the perception that this is actually a profession.........

[Pier]

Originally Posted by Beyersound

It really diminishes the perception that this is actually a profession.........

Yes... you are right. Most promotors or club owners don't know anything about sound, and their ears don't work that well. So a lot of times people with no real tech knowledge get the job done because they know where to plug things.

I was in a concert of nitzer Ebb a few months back, and the PA engineer was mixing with headphones all the time, without any knowledge of what was really happening in the real acoustic space. and he was at the back of the warehouse, really far from the PA. Of course it sounded like s*** at a massive volume of maybe 130 dbs... my friends and I left after 3 songs. It was a real ear torture.

Not saying all PA live engineers are bad... a few weeks back I went to see Trentemoller live. I was near the PA engineer at the center of the club. He was constantly monitoring the sound in the room with a mic and an analyzer in his macbook. In that analyzer he had both the live signal from the mic, and the signal he was sending to the PA. That way he could compare them and adjust EQ in real time. It sounded amazing.... but tbh that is rare.