Too Bright!!!

[Raddler]

I find that no matter how hard I try that my mixes always sound too bright (haven't actually finished a song so I don't have much to post!!). I try to use corrective eqing to correct it, but then I lose the detail of the sample in the high end. Usually it's with hihats/claps/snares that I have a problem with. It just seems that when I listen to professional tracks I don't notice this "in your face brightness", and still these producers maintain the detail of their samples, especially with the above mentionned(hats/claps....).It's as though there is a veil over their music, but yet it still sounds great. I'm even starting to blame my apogee duet for being to clean!!! lol. I'm sure that's not the reason however. I suppose that i'm perhaps choosing the wrong samples, but i'm using quality stuff like vengeance and sample magic.Maybe i'm missing something obvious, but some advice would be appreciated. I produce prog house in logic and use the native effects (eq...). I use sennheiser hd600's also, which are not reknowned for being too bright, so that's not the issue i believe. Thanx

[msl]

Try low pass filtering everything except maybe your hats and snare/clap. Anywhere from 17hz on down depending on the sound. Try some tape sims too. I take it your not jacking up your hi's beforehand on individual tracks or your main mix bus... digital eq's are famous for sounding harsh when boosting hi's. The Duet/HD600s are definitely not to blame!


.

[AJ Reynolds]

tape sims do wonders, even the ones that sound nothing like tape do a good job.

[CoolColJ]

Rest your ears frequently. Ear fatigue causes eveyrthing to dull out after a while, so you compenstate when editing and mixing.

And run the mix out into an analog mxier, it usually rounds off the top end, even said mixer is transparent

[Raddler]

What are tape sims?

[Raddler]

Originally Posted by msl

Try low pass filtering everything except maybe your hats and snare/clap. Anywhere from 17hz on down depending on the sound. Try some tape sims too. I take it your not jacking up your hi's beforehand on individual tracks or your main mix bus... digital eq's are famous for sounding harsh when boosting hi's. The Duet/HD600s are definitely not to blame!


.

I will try that. Is there much difference however in low pass filtering vs cutting the highs on an eq, which is what I do??

[atma]

I'm sure everyone and their mother will wholeheartedly disagree with this advice, but something that really helped me to learn to get my mixes closer to the balance of professional reference mixes was using voxengo CurveEQ.

This is one of those specialized EQs that take the EQ response of one thing and applies it to another. So what i'd do is go through my CD collection and rip an entire CD to one long wav file (obviously an album that was similar stylistically to what i was doing, and had the kind of overall eq i was looking for), and then have CurveEQ apply it to my track on the master bus.

However—what's helpful about this is simply to observe what frequencies the plugin changes within the EQ spectrum and by how much. After long periods of mixing the same track you tend to lose a great deal of objectivity as your brain acclimates itself to the way your mix sounds, and though you dont really want to use CurveEQ as a simple "fix" for your EQ curve, using it as more of an analyzer can definitely give you clues as to where your mix may be way off in certain areas of the spectrum, which you can then adjust (sometimes it might just be track mixer levels that need to be adjusted and not even EQ). You can also set it up to show the original input spectrum and the new, adjusted spectrum overlapping.

In any case, something like this is worth experimenting with. if you try feeding CurveEq with several different high quality reference recordings and the plugin consistantly starts cutting out your high frequencies by massive amounts in order to match your track's response to the reference EQ, you'll know that your mix balance is in fact way off in the treble range.

Again i'd just warn to use it as an analyzer to give you a kind of rough guide/clues as to what may need adjusting and then go back and make the adjustments by hand without relying on the EQ to fix anything for you.

[Raddler]

Originally Posted by atma

In any case, something like this is worth experimenting with. if you try feeding CurveEq with several different high quality reference recordings and the plugin consistantly starts cutting out your high frequencies by massive amounts in order to match your track's response to the reference EQ, you'll know that your mix balance is in fact way off in the treble range.

That's an interesting method!

[BlackBackDrop]

Check your monitors do not have a high shelf switch engaged.

If that does not help you then find a reference track you like and keep it up your sleeve, so you can A/B the high end. You can SOLO the highs on a Multiband compressor to isolate them if that makes life easier.

If that does not help you then buy one of the many ear training DVD/CD's on the market and listen at night while you sleep.

[fuse]

Start making music for dogs and bats.

[Praxisaxis]

People have already more or less said this but I'll put it into my own words, for whatever that's worth

1) use a reference track... it actually, really and truly, doesn't matter how good your monitors and room are if you don't know what sound you're aiming for. One way of learning is by frequently comparing to a professional release which you believe is representative of the sound you want. Don't be afraid to import it right into your mix (and adjust its fader down so that it sits at roughly the same loudness as your mix, and don't forget to use mute and solo). It's easier to bring it into the mix, because you will be able to make changes in the mix more readily. (This is also a good way to learn the sound of your monitors and environment).

2) once you've done the above, then you can use spectrum analysis to provide some extra visual queues about the differences you can hear. Then use an EQ on your master bus to shape it to see if you can match it that way. But the EQ is usually just an exercise - don't spend too long with it for the following reason.

3) once you've done the above, take the EQ off, and try fixing your mix, so that you don't need that EQ on the master bus (or at least not one so pronounced).

Once you have a better idea of what sound you're after, it's a much simpler process to adjust the mix: i) try rounding off those instruments which are sitting more in the mids or lows, to give the highs their own space; ii) then, making sure you play back with the whole mix (not soloed) get an EQ on your bright stuff (eg high hats) and drag the boost around with *heaps* of DB (but not too much Q) so you can hear an obvious difference, iii) find a sweet spot - note that it's often not right at the top of the range. The sweet spot is only defined in relation to the whole mix - NOT the soloed track. Once you have it where you think it is, drag it down to a more subtle difference, but still noticeable. Then lower the overall output of the EQ (or fader on the track) so that your input gain roughly matches your output gain including your EQ changes.

A master EQ does add something to the mix which can't be easily or fully created inside the mix; but you want this to be a final touch, not a cure-all. If you can mix it to sound good, this will ultimately sound better than an overall EQ "fix".

In the end, you don't have to make your mix sound like someone else's, but it's a worthy exercise. The point being that you can fiddle with it all you want, but you may not get anywhere (or at least waste time) if you have no preexisting fairly solid notion about the overall sound of the mix you're going for, and referencing one of your favourite tracks will certainly help with that.

Oh and another thing - I've found that layering different drum parts, although this might sound good at first, sometimes causes an accumulation in different areas, particularly the highs. If you're working on a track with more than one set of drum sounds, try cutting it back (which will give you more headroom to boost a trimmed-back drum part).

[tribeofenki]

Yin vs Yang: maybe it lacks low-end, hence the highs are too much.

[DSPaudio]

Your statement about the Senn HD600's is confusing. You're saying they are not bright phones <or> they *are* bright phones?

If you're not a self calibrating engineer, (as in, been doing this long enough that monitor differences don't phase me), then phones that focus on mids and bass can easily cause you to exaggerate the treble...

Because "loud" sounds good, most people keep boosting ranges until it's "all loud". This results in a creative workflow focused on filling the canvas, rather than talking with the canvas and listening to it. If your workflow approaches mixing from the "fill the empty canvas" position then your monitors will play a large role in your mix results, which is why I asked about the phones. If you're naturally compensating for them being a bit dark, then your mixes will often be bright or even over-the-top.

I didn't read the whole thread, but I'm sure someone mentioned how easy it is to snowball high end hash ITB. So EQ'ng or low-pass filtering everything except what you want to be bright is a good idea. EQs or Filters will work fine... They are very similar for this application.

cheers,

[Papabear]

too much limiting can bring out harshness

also maybe you are compensating for clashes in the mid/lows by over eqing
the highs, try cuting some low mid and maybe boosting the highmid (2000-4000) that can make a sound cut through much better then 8-12k

[SWAN808]

I find ITB producing generally a little too bright...personally I think treble is too well represented in the digital realm and low freqs are generally under-represented. Take from that what you will...
Honestly I find the same as you - trying to LPF out all the high harshness leads to dull mixes-when you should be able to have clarity without harshness or over-brightness. I find running mixes thru / mixing thru buss compressors / analogue saturation devices to sort the problem out - giving some analogue dynamic warmth to the ITB signal.
However - some saturation plugins do a good job - case in point - Airwindows 'ToTape'...

Listen to the demos with the treble soften of 'ToTape' added to each track

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/6425776-post157.html

Here is a less bass heavy revised version with treble softening...

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/6426622-post163.html

[AvS]

Originally Posted by SWAN808

I find ITB producing generally a little too bright...personally I think treble is too well represented in the digital realm and low freqs are generally under-represented. Take from that what you will...

That makes no sense. It depends on what samples you use, how you program your synths and your monitoring. I always struggle to get my mixes brighter.

If your mix is too bright don't grab an eq as the first thing. Eq is for correction - why not attack the issues at the source?
Try to se if you can lower the levels of the sounds that contains the high freqs. Or maybe you just have to many sounds going on at the same time that has high frequencies. Or perhaps the brightness comes from some synth sounds; if yes then tweak them so that they are less bright.

[Simonator]

With an EQ on your master, roll off from ~15kHz @ 6 or 12dB/oct.

Boost ~10-12kHz to add back some air/brightness.

[duggabax]

1. Get a two track tape recorder
2. Pitch your finished track up and increase the speed
3. Record to tape
4. Slow the tape speed down so you're at your original pitch and speed
5. EQ to taste
6. Enjoy smooth tapey gooeyness

[Raddler]

Thanx everyone for the advice and tips, i'm trying to apply them!! Here is an example of what I mean.....

The whole song in my opinion has such nice balanced highs, but if you listen at exactly 2:22 you'll hear a hat shuffle start. It isn't particularly bright, but it maintains it's clarity if you know what I mean.

YouTube - Andrea Bertolini - Fireface (Original Mix).m4v

[Nev]

Originally Posted by Raddler

I find that no matter how hard I try that my mixes always sound too bright (haven't actually finished a song so I don't have much to post!!). I try to use corrective eqing to correct it, but then I lose the detail of the sample in the high end. Usually it's with hihats/claps/snares that I have a problem with. It just seems that when I listen to professional tracks I don't notice this "in your face brightness", and still these producers maintain the detail of their samples, especially with the above mentionned(hats/claps....).It's as though there is a veil over their music, but yet it still sounds great. I'm even starting to blame my apogee duet for being to clean!!! lol. I'm sure that's not the reason however. I suppose that i'm perhaps choosing the wrong samples, but i'm using quality stuff like vengeance and sample magic.Maybe i'm missing something obvious, but some advice would be appreciated. I produce prog house in logic and use the native effects (eq...). I use sennheiser hd600's also, which are not reknowned for being too bright, so that's not the issue i believe. Thanx

Short answer: Learn to mix. It is just that simple. It's an art-form.

When you listen to professional tracks they sound so clear and crisp? Of course, big sound comes from big bucks on equipment. It is possible with cheaper and default gear/plugins, just takes more work.

Is your studio room treated? What are you using to monitor? If your listening environment is not up to par, you have to work even harder for that perfect balance and mix.

Always use a reference track in your environment. Certain DAWS behave differently, for example in Ableton pay attention to your track level going into your efx plugins, you dont want the plugin softsynth going in hot. Give proper headroom to let the efx work their magic. Highs are usually the first to get mangled, especially with the abuse of limiters now-a-days.

[sftd]

Originally Posted by Nev

Short answer: Learn to mix. It is just that simple. It's an art-form.

When you listen to professional tracks they sound so clear and crisp? Of course, big sound comes from big bucks on equipment. It is possible with cheaper and default gear/plugins, just takes more work.

Is your studio room treated? What are you using to monitor? If your listening environment is not up to par, you have to work even harder for that perfect balance and mix.

Always use a reference track in your environment. Certain DAWS behave differently, for example in Ableton pay attention to your track level going into your efx plugins, you dont want the plugin softsynth going in hot. Give proper headroom to let the efx work their magic. Highs are usually the first to get mangled, especially with the abuse of limiters now-a-days.

This!

I suffer from the exact same problem as the OP, everything seems too bright.

This is because I suck fairly bad at mixing, and complicate matters further by using buss limiting to smash it all into volume world and exaggerate the problems that were there long before the limiter. Also, the advice on levels going into plugs in Ableton was a revelation to me that I discovered only a week ago.

I have a hip-hop producer friend with far less equipment and software than I, yet his mixes sound markedly better than mine at all points and times. It's because he has a talent in mixing. I love composing, I love it so much in fact that by the time I've gone on this creative flurry and made 24 different tracks of melody/harmony/countermelody in 45 minutes, then spent another hour or two getting the rhythm section in line and everything arranged into this magical little journey I envisioned that I am wholly creatively spent when it comes to mixing/final production. I usually at this point tell myself I'll come back to it later, but generally each time I do I end up with another idea for a song and repeat the entire process again. This results in all of my mixes being entirely half-assed due to both lack of knowledge and lack of effort.

And then each time I render the final mp3 out I ask myself the same question time and time again.

Why does this sound like junk? Why is everything so bright?

Despite this, I insist on "releasing" it anyway, hence the link in my signature.

Essentially what I'm trying to say is DON'T DO WHAT I DO! LEARN TO MIX, IT WILL FIX IT!

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by Simonator

With an EQ on your master, roll off from ~15kHz @ 6 or 12dB/oct.

Boost ~10-12kHz to add back some air/brightness.

The quality of your EQ makes all the difference too.

Acoustica Nebula options & Sonnox are nice.