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#2251
3rd October 2012
Old 3rd October 2012
  #2251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicFan View Post
You can apply Ring Modulation between Partial 1&2, but not with Partial 3.

@crufty: Yep, I don't own a JP-50, but a JP-80.

Of course it would be nice to have the V-Synth with 256 Voices and ultrafast response. You don't have the accessible VariPhrase technology of the V-Synth on board of the JP-50/80, but Roland might have used it implicitly (combined with other technologies from the V-Synth, like APS) in the so called SuperNatural technology from the new Jupiters...

I am really hoping for a powerful successor of the V-Synth in the coming future!
-
What do you need 256 voices in the V-Synth for? Although I agree to more voices in the V-Synth, for sure a better Reverb (they are getting worse with every new generation), higher quality of EFX in general, bottom line: more processing power. Personally I do not see any need for 256 voices. Higher quality of each single voice instead of quantity.
MusicFan
#2252
3rd October 2012
Old 3rd October 2012
  #2252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter@greatsynth View Post
What do you need 256 voices in the V-Synth for? Although I agree to more voices in the V-Synth, for sure a better Reverb (they are getting worse with every new generation), higher quality of EFX in general, bottom line: more processing power. Personally I do not see any need for 256 voices. Higher quality of each single voice instead of quantity.
Hallo Peter

Schön von Dir zu hören!

Offen gesagt, habe ich in diesem Forum, als einsamen Verteidiger des Jupiter-80 auf Kamikaze-Mission, die obige Aussage betreffend V-Synth bloss nebenbei gemacht und glaube inzwischen nicht mehr daran, dass Roland jemals einen neuen Nachfolger des V-Synths präsentieren wird.

Das neue Integra-7 Modul lässt erahnen, wohin Rolands Reise geht: Eine Workstation, die im Wesentlichen die I-7 Technologie beherbergen, jedoch vermutlich mit 256 Stimmen, etc. aufwarten wird...

Grüsse ins schöne Wien!

#2253
3rd October 2012
Old 3rd October 2012
  #2253
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That is really nice and I know who you are.

Regarding the Jupiter-80, well... I just put mine back into the studio (on top of the Zarenbourg) and just played it. It can sound very good and it is quite easy to get typical Roland pad sounds. Personally I think jeder hat seine Wahrheit und die soll ihm auch nicht genommen werden.... if someone does not like the Jupiter-80, then it is fine with me. I know what I can get from and how easy it is to program sounds. I made a short workshop to demonstrate how easy it is to program one of those pads without using any internal effects.

It seems that some guys from kf.com bought the JP-80 and really like it. I am curious to see what the Legacy Collection will bring us..... beside some discussions.

Regarding V-Synth, actually I did not like it when I owned the Rack version, but now love it, since I have the GT v2. There is one audiofile in our Listening Room, which I recorded more or less on the day the V-Synth arrived. i hope to have the time to write a review.

Peter
#2254
8th October 2012
Old 8th October 2012
  #2254
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Can Jupiter 80 owners please help with a question:

In the new Integra-7 manual, I see a parameter called Stretch Tune Depth, which is supposed to alter pitch relative to equal temperament. I searched through Jupiter-80's manual, can't find it. Is it there but named as something else? Thanks.
MusicFan
#2255
8th October 2012
Old 8th October 2012
  #2255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cl516 View Post
Can Jupiter 80 owners please help with a question:

In the new Integra-7 manual, I see a parameter called Stretch Tune Depth, which is supposed to alter pitch relative to equal temperament. I searched through Jupiter-80's manual, can't find it. Is it there but named as something else? Thanks.
As the Integra-7 includes a full-blown SuperNATURAL engine AND a full-blown PCM engine à la XV-5080/FantomX/G/etc. , the parameter "Stretch Tune Depth" is only existent in the PCM Synth engine and not in the SuperNATURAL engine derived from the new Jupiter series...

#2256
24th October 2012
Old 24th October 2012
  #2256
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Is the Jupiter 80 able to do a convincing MKS-80 or Jupiter 8 recreation?

Is the Jupiter 80 better than the integra 7 due to its fx structure and polyphony?
#2257
3rd November 2012
Old 3rd November 2012
  #2257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A UserName View Post
Came here looking for additional info/specs on this synth, but I must say...this thread makes me want to punch a baby.... kthx!
Thank you for that... I was "heading" in that direction myself... Laughing nonstop for 5 mins however seemed to extinguish the need to vent my frustrations on "anything."


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#2258
3rd November 2012
Old 3rd November 2012
  #2258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablu8 View Post
Is the Jupiter 80 able to do a convincing MKS-80 or Jupiter 8 recreation?

Is the Jupiter 80 better than the integra 7 due to its fx structure and polyphony?
Steve Fortner, long time musician and member of the Keyboard Magazine staff, mentioned in a video review that the VA synth in the JP-80 sounded darn close to a Jupiter-8. I've heard this from several musicians, as many as have said that no, it doesn't. But given how hard the folk around here are on ANYTHING virtual analog, I'd say this recommends it as good sounding. And from audio samples I've heard of the JP-80 synth tones soloed compared to a Jupiter-8, I find it to come very close, in fact, I rather like the 80 a bit more which could simply be a matter of having nice effects on board. And I like the variety of filter types. I have to reiterate that I haven't come within miles of one, as they're about as rare as the OASYS in stores, but the net has enough quality examples that I'm satisfied. And yes, you CAN get a good assessment of an instrument from net sources. I have way too much experience chasing down net samples and then hearing the real thing in person, so that meme about how nothing sounds the same online is bunk.

There is a caveat on that though. There is no hard sync as of yet, a weird omission on a Jupiter synth, or cross-mod.

Compared with the Integra, the advantage of the JP-80 is the insane 256 voice polyphony, and Live Mode performability. Most people also love the JP's synth action keyboard. It does have a good range of effects per part, but being a performance oriented keyboard, it's limited to four parts: Upper, Lower, Percussion and Solo. And effects are divvied up this way:

EFFECTS: 8 multi-FX (4 Upper, 4 Lower), 3 reverbs (Upper, Lower, Solo/ Percussion), 2 compressor-EQ-delay chains (Solo and Percussion), global 4-band semiparametric EQ.

The multieffects used to be parallel only, but with the latest update, I think you can do some MFX chaining, not that I think it would matter much with four effects per multi. And I believe the delays can also be configured as chorus. Because of the crazy polyphony, a lot of the synth "patches" - the equivalent of combis or performances on some synths - there are a lot of huge evolving layers slathered in effects with tinkly arpeggios running through them, and really overwhelm what the synth is really capable of as a traditional synthesizer.

The Integra-7 has the usual 128 voice polyphony, but is more focused in the kinds of sounds you expect from a Roland synth, so the huge evolvo-pads are a little less smothering. It's 16 channel multitimbral, and each part has its own multieffects feeding into an overall EQ/compressor/ambience, which Roland states gives you six of. I'm assuming "ambience" is a reverb of some type. While the JP-80 has some 4,000 patches on board, the Integra offers an insane 6,000 of them! With a category search to help you sift through them, you can probably find something that hits you in the pleasure center, or to use as the basis of a fresh patch. It's also heavily built around the traditional PCM rompler side, and includes twelve of the SRX expansions, which to me are superb sounding. Considering that many have been built by long time Roland sound designer Eric Persing of Spectrasonics fame, this comes as no surprise. You virtually "load" these four at a time to use in sound building.

Another aspect which is integral to the Integra - ba-dum - is the surround sound capability built in. And while the JP-80 gives you a basic stereo out and two aux outs, the Integra offers you ten outputs to take advantage of whatever outboard effects you have, as well as individual processing for surround sound or multi-channel production.

One drawback for the Integra-7 is the fact that to edit it, you need to use a SONAR DAW, which a basic version is included, or an iPad to program it, while the JP-80 has a marvelous touch screen.

It's a bit like comparing the JD-800 with the more potent JD-990 module. Each one has things to commend them, and it's a matter of which offers you more capacity for what you need.
ozy
#2259
3rd November 2012
Old 3rd November 2012
  #2259
ozy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synthguy View Post
And yes, you CAN get a good assessment of an instrument from net sources
using capital letters and emphatic exclamations ("yes"! Hallelujah!) is not going to disprove anytime soon the fact that the tube sucks at demoing top-notch synthesyzers.

[more about the "yes, you can" mantra in... er... 3 days and 1/2]

But please, go ahead and review an instrument you didn't event touch.

And indeed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by synthguy View Post
somebody else mentioned [...]. I've heard [...] I'd say [...] I haven't come within miles of one [...] meme [...]. Most people also [...] I think [...]not that I think [...]I believe [...] you can probably find [...]
MusicFan
#2260
3rd November 2012
Old 3rd November 2012
  #2260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synthguy View Post

...And yes, you CAN get a good assessment of an instrument from net sources. I have way too much experience chasing down net samples and then hearing the real thing in person, so that meme about how nothing sounds the same online is bunk.
I just had the opposite experience concerning the Jupiter-80:

After watching and listening for about one year almost everything available on the web about the JP-80 after its release and reading the specifications and the user manual and parameter guide, I dismissed the JP-80 very much and wrote a lot of bad things about the JP-80 on other forums...

Even after having touched the JP-80 for just a few seconds for the first time in my local music store, I just didn't "get it" and left the store ignoring the JP-80.

But when I finally had the second chance to test the JP-80 in person for two whole days under perfect audio conditions, I had to realize my former ignorance and my huge failure...

So when I finally "got it", I had to realize that the Jupiter-80 is the most expressive and most organic, best sounding and most accessible synthesizer Roland has ever built to this day! It is in fact so good, that I finally even purchased TWO Jupiter-80!

Quote:
Originally Posted by synthguy View Post

There is a caveat on that though. There is no hard sync as of yet, a weird omission on a Jupiter synth, or cross-mod.
Yes, but the JP-80 offers Ring Modulation and Wave Shaping instead.

Beside the virtual analog waveforms you can also choose from several hundred of sampled waveforms instead, where you find plenty of very good sync waveforms.

And don't forget that you have a THREE Oscillator subtractive synthesis with a distinct Filter, Amp and Modulation section FOR EACH single Oscillator available on the JP-80, which gives you an incredible wide array of sound design options!

ozy
#2261
3rd November 2012
Old 3rd November 2012
  #2261
ozy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicFan View Post
But when I finally had the second chance to test IT in person for two whole days under perfect audio conditions, I had to realize my former ignorance and my huge failure...

So when I finally "got it", I had to realize that it is the most expressive and most organic, best and most ever built to this day! It is in fact so good, that I finally even purchased TWO of IT!


Yes, but IT offers A and B instead. Beside the virtual analog waveforms you can also choose from several hundred of sampled waveforms instead, where you find plenty of very good sync waveforms.

And don't forget that you haveTHIS, THIS AND THAT !!!

MusicFan
#2262
4th November 2012
Old 4th November 2012
  #2262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozy View Post


Yes, but IT offers A and B instead. Beside the virtual analog waveforms you can also choose from several hundred of sampled waveforms instead, where you find plenty of very good sync waveforms.

And don't forget that you haveTHIS, THIS AND THAT !!!
Those statements of mine which you've destroyed in your quote ARE JUST PLAIN TECHNICAL FACTS. Are you a kind of Republican who denies scientific facts?

And believe what you want man, but only AFTER having tested the JP-80 for several days and after having done your own sound programming on it! I don't give a damn sh*t about your BELIEVE, but it is possible that I would care about your OPINION, based on real life experience with the real instrument!



#2263
4th November 2012
Old 4th November 2012
  #2263
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adding that large picture mean reading anything now is a complete pain in the a**...thanks for that...
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#2264
4th November 2012
Old 4th November 2012
  #2264
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the sooner we get to age 77 the better!
#2265
4th November 2012
Old 4th November 2012
  #2265
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Helping this to page 77. Yeah, scrolling posts larger than the screen sucks.
#2266
4th November 2012
Old 4th November 2012
  #2266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicFan View Post
To be concrete, so that everybody can see how "deep" the JP-80 VA-synth is , I hereby quote the whole SN-Synth tone parameter list from the JP-80's parameter guide (the figures are missing):
thanks

does the filter step? vsynth xt had some stepping issues.
MusicFan
#2267
4th November 2012
Old 4th November 2012
  #2267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
thanks

does the filter step? vsynth xt had some stepping issues.
I've just tested the JP-80 filter behavior concerning audible steps in the different available contexts, like:

-Synth edit mode
-Real time offset parameter control via the real time knobs or external controllers
-Real time control by the modulators like ENV and LFO
-Real time control via aftertouch and mod wheel

The JP-80 filters always react absolutely smooth in every situation! (BTW: This is not the case with the Integra-7.)

The following informations could be of interest as well:

Quotes from JUPITER :: Roland Synthesizer Global Official :

Authentic synth sounds — from classic vintage analog to modern digital

To faithfully recreate the unique sound of analog synths, we've meticulously analyzed the behavior of oscillators, filters, and envelopes that are unique to analog synths. In the new JUPITER series, a single synth tone comprises three OSC, FILTER, AMP, and LFO chains, which give you absolutely powerful synthesis control over a single tone. You also have access to ring modulation, WAVE shapes for creating complex tones, and the popular UNISON mode, which lets you overlay up to eight waves per OSC to create thick and fat analog synth tones.



Incredibly Smooth Analog Feel
Emulates the envelope behavior of an analog synthesizer
In an analog synth, the electric charge/discharge rate of the envelope rises and falls in a slightly curved line. The JUPITER-80 and -50 faithfully reproduce this attribute for all of its envelopes, including the oscillator, filter, and amplifier. By using this envelope to control the four LPF types, the resulting sound has an incredibly smooth analog feel.




Emulates the filter behavior of an analog synthesizer
The LPF plays an important role in shaping the tone. It can be used to cut elements from the sound, and can also be used to emphasize elements around the cutoff frequency with resonance. When you control the resonance in an analog synth, the cutoff frequency fluctuates, and signal levels below the cutoff frequency are affected as well. The entire filter changes organically as if it's alive. These changes occur due to the behavior of the analog circuits and the components used, such as resistors and condensers, which make up the unique sound of an analog synth.



Four types of LPFs with unique behavior
[JP-80, Jupiter-8, MiniMoog, Prophet-5]

The JUPITER-80 and -50 feature four types of LPFs. Each filter behaves differently, even if their cutoff and resonance parameters are the same. The LPF is personalized by its parameter settings and real-time control cutoff frequency and resonance.

Quote JP-80 Parameter Guide:

Analog Feel 0–127
Use this to apply “1/f fluctuation,” a type of randomness or instability that is present in many natural
systems (such as a babbling brook or whispering breeze) and is perceived as pleasant by many
people.
By applying “1/f fluctuation” you can create the natural-sounding instability that is characteristic of
an analog synthesizer.


#2268
4th November 2012
Old 4th November 2012
  #2268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicFan View Post
I've just tested the JP-80 filter behavior concerning audible steps in the different available contexts, like:

-Synth edit mode
-Real time offset parameter control via the real time knobs or external controllers
-Real time control by the modulators like ENV and LFO
-Real time control via aftertouch and mod wheel

The JP-80 filters always react absolutely smooth in every situation!
(BTW: This is not the case with the Integra-7.)

The following informations could be of interest as well:

Quotes from JUPITER
:: Roland Synthesizer Global Official
:

Authentic synth sounds — from classic vintage analog to modern digital

To faithfully recreate the unique sound of analog synths, we've meticulously analyzed
the behavior of oscillators, filters, and envelopes that are unique to analog synths.
In the new JUPITER series, a single synth tone comprises three OSC,
FILTER, AMP, and LFO chains, which give you absolutely powerful synthesis control
over a single tone. You also have access to ring modulation, WAVE shapes for creating complex tones,
and the popular UNISON mode, which lets you overlay up to eight waves per OSC to create thick
and fat analog synth tones.




Incredibly Smooth Analog Feel
Emulates the envelope behavior of an analog synthesizer
In an analog synth, the electric charge/discharge rate of the envelope rises and falls
in a slightly curved line. The JUPITER-80 and -50 faithfully reproduce this attribute
for all of its envelopes, including the oscillator, filter, and amplifier. By using
this envelope to control the four LPF types, the resulting sound has an incredibly smooth analog feel.




Emulates the filter behavior of an analog synthesizer
The LPF plays an important role in shaping the tone. It can be used to cut
elements from the sound, and can also be used to emphasize elements around
the cutoff frequency with resonance. When you control the resonance in an analog synth,
the cutoff frequency fluctuates, and signal levels below the cutoff frequency are affected as well.
The entire filter changes organically as if it's alive. These changes occur due to the behavior
of the analog circuits and the components used, such as resistors and condensers,
which make up the unique sound of an analog synth.




Four types of LPFs with unique behavior
[JP-80, Jupiter-8, MiniMoog, Prophet-5]

The JUPITER-80 and -50 feature four types of LPFs. Each filter behaves differently,
even if their cutoff and resonance parameters are the same. The LPF is personalized by
its parameter settings and real-time control cutoff frequency and resonance.


Quote JP-80 Parameter Guide:

Analog Feel 0–127
Use this to apply “1/f fluctuation,” a type of randomness or instability that is present in many natural
systems (such as a babbling brook or whispering breeze) and is perceived as pleasant by many
people.
By applying “1/f fluctuation” you can create the natural-sounding instability that is characteristic of
an analog synthesizer.



edited so i can read it without scrolling

are yo saying that the inegra 7 is not as capable synth engine as the jupiter 50/80?
"The JP-80 filters always react absolutely smooth in every situation!
(BTW: This is not the case with the Integra-7.)"
MusicFan
#2269
4th November 2012
Old 4th November 2012
  #2269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cresshead View Post
edited so i can read it without scrolling

are yo saying that the inegra 7 is not as capable synth engine as the jupiter 50/80?
"The JP-80 filters always react absolutely smooth in every situation!
(BTW: This is not the case with the Integra-7.)"
The available processing power is shared in different ways in the Jupiter-80 and Integra-7.
The JP-80 (256 voices) has its full power available solely for the SN engine, why even the real time editing of the filters remains smooth,
which is not the case on the Integra-7 (128 voices), where filter steps are audible in SN edit mode.

The I-7 is therefore not recommendable for deep real time synth editing experiments in front of an audience, while the JP-80 is
capable to deliver in such a situation.
But those characteristics correspond to the different purpose and design of both instruments. (Performance Synth vs Sound Module)

MusicFan
#2270
5th November 2012
Old 5th November 2012
  #2270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablu8 View Post

Is the Jupiter 80 able to do a convincing MKS-80 or Jupiter 8 recreation?
The JP-80 has an intersection of possible sounds with the JP-8 , JP-6 (MKS-80), SH-101, Juno-60, Juno-106, D-50 and TB-303, etc.
where they are almost indistinguishable from each other.

But it is impossible to recreate every sound of the above mentioned synths on the JP-80 and of course vice versa.
And let's not forget that the JP-80 is offering not only the JP-80 Filter itself, but also a Jupiter-8, MiniMoog and Prophet-5 Filter, based on physical modeling!

I guess the new Jupiter Legacy Collection, which should be available soon, will confirm the above mentioned indistinguishability:









#2271
5th November 2012
Old 5th November 2012
  #2271
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You sound just like a salesman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicFan View Post
The JP-80 has an intersection of possible sounds with the JP-8 , JP-6 (MKS-80), SH-101, Juno-60, Juno-106, D-50 and TB-303, etc.
where they are almost indistinguishable from each other...
What? What does that mean?

How many of those synths have you played?

I'm sensing serious shill-vibes here..
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#2272
5th November 2012
Old 5th November 2012
  #2272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke View Post
You sound just like a salesman.


What? What does that mean?

How many of those synths have you played?

I'm sensing serious shill-vibes here..
I've played ALL of them!

The coming Jupiter Legacy Collection offers sounds from those mentioned synths (JP-8 , JP-6, SH-101, Juno-60, Juno-106, D-50 and TB-303),
which are 1:1 recreations of some typical sounds of those classic Roland synths.

"Some people" already had access to some of those Legacy sounds and had the chance to compare them 1:1 with the original.
They are indistinguishable.
But people can decide for themselves after the release of the Legacy Collection...



PS: I don't work for Roland!
#2273
5th November 2012
Old 5th November 2012
  #2273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicFan View Post
They are indistinguishable.
Bad move. Now it's a challenge, and the purists will prevail.
#2274
5th November 2012
Old 5th November 2012
  #2274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicFan View Post
I've played ALL of them!

.
Where? A demonstration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicFan View Post
"Some people" already had access to some of those Legacy sounds and had the chance to compare them 1:1 with the original.
They are indistinguishable.
'Some people'? And they find them 'indistinguishable!?

Are they Roland reps.?

Do you deal in gear?
MusicFan
#2275
5th November 2012
Old 5th November 2012
  #2275
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#2276
5th November 2012
Old 5th November 2012
  #2276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greggybud View Post

Bad move. Now it's a challenge, and the purists will prevail.


#2277
5th November 2012
Old 5th November 2012
  #2277
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can't wait to hear the legacy collection if it's 80% there...it's pretty cool!
#2278
5th November 2012
Old 5th November 2012
  #2278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synthguy View Post
Steve Fortner, long time musician and member of the Keyboard Magazine staff, mentioned in a video review that the VA synth in the JP-80 sounded darn close to a Jupiter-8. I've heard this from several musicians, as many as have said that no, it doesn't. But given how hard the folk around here are on ANYTHING virtual analog, I'd say this recommends it as good sounding. And from audio samples I've heard of the JP-80 synth tones soloed compared to a Jupiter-8, I find it to come very close, in fact, I rather like the 80 a bit more which could simply be a matter of having nice effects on board.

The Integra-7 has the usual 128 voice polyphony, but is more focused in the kinds of sounds you expect from a Roland synth, so the huge evolvo-pads are a little less smothering. It's 16 channel multitimbral, and each part has its own multieffects feeding into an overall EQ/compressor/ambience, which Roland states gives you six of. I'm assuming "ambience" is a reverb of some type.

Another aspect which is integral to the Integra - ba-dum - is the surround sound capability built in. And while the JP-80 gives you a basic stereo out and two aux outs, the Integra offers you ten outputs to take advantage of whatever outboard effects you have, as well as individual processing for surround sound or multi-channel production.

One drawback for the Integra-7 is the fact that to edit it, you need to use a SONAR DAW, which a basic version is included, or an iPad to program it, while the JP-80 has a marvelous touch screen.

It's a bit like comparing the JD-800 with the more potent JD-990 module. Each one has things to commend them, and it's a matter of which offers you more capacity for what you need.
What are you babbling on about? Do you actually have a JP-8, a JP-80 or an Integra?

You've written paragraphs and paragraphs of nonsense here. Surely you don't think you're qualified to comment about how an instrument sounds based on a YouTube or SoundCloud recording?

Here are some corrections to your comments about the Integra:

1) the Integra has 8 independent outputs, not 10. The XLR analog outs, the S/PDIF out, and the USB outs all reproduce the signal from the main 1/4" L/R analog outs

2) You do not need Sonar or an iPad to edit the Integra sounds. There is no editing at all that cannot be done on the Integra's own interface, which is, as Imentioned elsewhere on this forum, is extremely similar to the S-770 sampler and XV-5080 synth module

3) There is a global send-return based reverb with six different algorithms, and a global send-return based chorus/delay effect. There is no master compressor like there is in the Fantom series. Each part has its own independent insert effect. However the Integra does have multiple compressor effects available to the drum part, but these can only be applied to the drum part.
#2279
5th November 2012
Old 5th November 2012
  #2279
Lives for gear
 
golden beers's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,151

golden beers is offline
if you sample a jupiter 8 you have a sound that is indistinguishable from the same sound on a jupiter 8. big woop.

now if you take that same sound on the jupiter 8 and you move the cross-mod slider up 1 millimetre, then you have something that the jupiter 80 can never recreate.

ps i'm all for the legacy collection. who wouldn't be?
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#2280
5th November 2012
Old 5th November 2012
  #2280
Lives for gear
 
cresshead's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Location: england
Posts: 1,245

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so...we're all still waiting to hear and see the legacy collection in action for real and not just opinions on as yet to be released software/patches.

so, looking forward to page 77!
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