Can you actually play?
View Poll Results: Please rate your musical talent
I Can't really play - It's a hobby
33 Votes - 11.74%
I'm not bad - I can't read music
27 Votes - 9.61%
I'm not bad - I can read music
31 Votes - 11.03%
I can play whats in my head - I can't read music
77 Votes - 27.40%
I can play what's in my head - I can read music
113 Votes - 40.21%
Voters: 281. You may not vote on this poll

Old 29th November 2010
  #61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mans View Post
Your whole long winded post assumes that all music needs to be in the confines of classical harmony and to be 'played' for it to have any value at all.
Of course not!

When you get your ideas committed to a medium - recorded or sequenced - you want that idea out of your head and on paper.

If you want to write a novel it makes sense to learn touch typing so your fingers don't get in the way of your thoughts. If you want to make music, it makes sense to learn how to play, so your fingers don't get in the way of your thoughts. The less you have to think about it, the better, because it means you can put more energy towards thinking about what really matters, which are the ideas.

Inspiration is capricious. No need to let good ideas slip away. That is not to say any music that doesn't respect those confines does not have good ideas, but why ignore several centuries of musicianship? Chances are you're going to borrow from that anyway.
Old 29th November 2010
  #62
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grumphh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mans View Post
Just imagine how dull the music industry would be if everyone liked exactly the same thing thumbsup
You need imagination for that?
Old 29th November 2010
  #63
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alexp's Avatar
 

Im a classically trained pianist, with perfect pitch, and can play by ear. Havent gone near a piano is probably 17 years though. Still utilize perfect pitch, and ear playing all the time.




alexP
Old 29th November 2010
  #64
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grumphh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post
If you want to make music, it makes sense to learn how to play, so your fingers don't get in the way of your thoughts.
That does entirely depend on what kind of music you want to create.

Some styles of music (hint: A shitload of EDM) do require other talents such as being able to program drummachines and synths and process them correctly rather than knowing which tones make up a major scale...

Sometimes sampling a very complicated chord properly and applying the right kind of filter movement to that sample to make it blend in and groove with your track is far more important than knowing which tones do or do not relate harmonically to that sampled chord.
Never mind actually being able to improvise over said chord at a bpm of 158 or whatever...
Old 29th November 2010
  #65
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post
Of course not!

When you get your ideas committed to a medium - recorded or sequenced - you want that idea out of your head and on paper.

If you want to write a novel it makes sense to learn touch typing so your fingers don't get in the way of your thoughts. If you want to make music, it makes sense to learn how to play, so your fingers don't get in the way of your thoughts. The less you have to think about it, the better, because it means you can put more energy towards thinking about what really matters, which are the ideas.

Inspiration is capricious. No need to let good ideas slip away. That is not to say any music that doesn't respect those confines does not have good ideas, but why ignore several centuries of musicianship? Chances are you're going to borrow from that anyway.
Maybe this will get my point across. The track below requires little more playing ability than of a cat that happens to walk across a piano keybed. Tracks like this don't happen away from your gear, they happen when you're highly involved with it, right there in the studio twisting knobs. To me this track is gold, to you it may be shit. But give it some time, it starts out slow, you just might like it.

Old 29th November 2010
  #66
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My right hand is ok. My left hand is shite. It's strictly on octave base or pitch/modulation wheel duties.
Old 29th November 2010
  #67
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Beermaster's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mans View Post
Seriously dude you need to get off your freakin high horse. Your whole long winded post assumes that all music needs to be in the confines of classical harmony and to be 'played' for it to have any value at all. Especially in EDM this is simply not true, which if you actually would've read my posts, you could see was my whole point.


Woooosh over your head.....bless.

As to the plastiikman track. Yep i can see how using only one note you can make a track without a keyboard and without being able to play....... Sounds just like a million others tho. Utterly forgettable and a prime example of why learning what the other other 87 notes do and why is probably not a bad thing.
Old 30th November 2010
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post


Woooosh over your head.....bless.

As to the plastiikman track. Yep i can see how using only one note you can make a track without a keyboard and without being able to play....... Sounds just like a million others tho. Utterly forgettable and a prime example of why learning what the other other 87 notes do and why is probably not a bad thing.
lol to a T the response I expected from you.
Old 30th November 2010
  #69
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golden beers's Avatar
i'm with yoozer on this. why is it so hard to get what he's (yoozer) saying?


@beermaster hating on plasticman is not a way to win the arguement. ps still love the avatar tho. works every time lol!
Old 30th November 2010
  #70
Gear addict
 

I Can't really play - It's a hobby
I'm not bad - I can't read music
I'm not bad - I can read music
I can play whats in my head - I can't read music
I can play what's in my head - I can read music

come on, if you're going to do a poll then at least do it properly please!.. we need scientific results! so we need quantifiable questions...

"i can't really play - it's a hobby" - what has 'hobby' got to do with the original question? you're either asking about how well you can play, OR how seriously you take your playing. i for example play like a cat thrown at a piano but music is my profession. yes that's right - bounce meowwww w w w.

"I'm not bad - I can't read music" are you asking if people can play well OR if they can read music. thankfully i can do neither, which has freed up a lot of spare time in the evenings i can tell you.

Last edited by tedmanzie; 30th November 2010 at 12:43 AM.. Reason: irrelevant tweaking of message when i should already be in bed
Old 30th November 2010
  #71
Gear addict
 

winning the poll so far with nearly 35%:
I can play what's in my head - I can read music


if this is true in the electronic forum then i will eat my Jupiter 6
Old 30th November 2010
  #72
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murphythecat87's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post


Woooosh over your head.....bless.

As to the plastiikman track. Yep i can see how using only one note you can make a track without a keyboard and without being able to play....... Sounds just like a million others tho. Utterly forgettable and a prime example of why learning what the other other 87 notes do and why is probably not a bad thing.
thumbsup
Old 30th November 2010
  #73
Lives for gear
I spent like six years playing guitar and so I think I've got the mental link between music in my head and music in my ears. I don't play guitar anymore but having the Juno 60 w/ no way to sequence it has brought me some rudimentary keyboard skills. Like playing chords and stuff. Used to be able to read music but it doesn't really have any application to what I do now.

Honestly when I think about how I make music nowadays - computer programs and machines covered in knobs - there's not too much in common with sitting down and playing a guitar or something with my hands. More like...air traffic controller or something, lol. I'm cool with that, though I could definitely see myself picking up the guitar. Just need to leave it alone long enough to forget all those rules I learned with it!
Old 30th November 2010
  #74
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TobyToby's Avatar
 

In England it is actually not allowed to own an instrument if you are not able "to play". That's the reason why our small country has such a huge amount of great music. It's even not allowed to sing in public if you don't have a great voice -Pubs are exceptions of course and the stage at X-Factor in combination with a certificate of mental disadvantages (no half way clever brain would sign their contracts otherwise).
Old 30th November 2010
  #75
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alexp's Avatar
 

Why are people getting so butthurt about people that can play vs people that cant? I didnt see anyone say one was better than the other. Why are you thinking you need to justify yourself to other people because you cant play? Surely your confidence cant be that low that youve taken to trying to convey to complete strangers on an internet forum that your relevant still?


I dont understand.



alexP
Old 30th November 2010
  #76
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mono-poly's Avatar
 

Q: Can you actually play?
A: Nope and can't read either.
Old 30th November 2010
  #77
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pinkerton's Avatar
 

ear training is more important than theory imo. but they were both insanely helpful in ways i couldn't even imagine before i started. its hard to explain exactly what i gained, just a fluidity really. it helped me find my voice, i guess.
Old 30th November 2010
  #78
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pinkerton's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Goldie View Post
winning the poll so far with nearly 35%:
I can play what's in my head - I can read music


if this is true in the electronic forum then i will eat my Jupiter 6
its probably more or less true. there's a lot of room between "playing whats in your head and reading" & "expert player"
Old 30th November 2010
  #79
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pinkerton's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers View Post
did i mention that i love your new avatar?

it's like EVERY post you make now has an automatic face-palm effect.

superb
he looks like conan o brien
Old 30th November 2010
  #80
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexp View Post
Why are people getting so butthurt about people that can play vs people that cant? I didnt see anyone say one was better than the other. Why are you thinking you need to justify yourself to other people because you cant play? Surely your confidence cant be that low that youve taken to trying to convey to complete strangers on an internet forum that your relevant still?


I dont understand.



alexP
Well seeing as I am just about the only one acting 'butthurt' I'll reply to this. I can play. I can read too. And I can do both at the same time I'm not very good but good enough to be able to write traditionally. Yet when I'm creating the kind of EDM that speaks to me, I don't sit down by the piano, I wire up the modular to a sequencer and start twiddling. It's all about sound exploration.

You are assuming too much, I'm not justifying anything against anyone, I just found this poll set up rather awkwardly. I don't know if hawtin can play, I don't know if beyer can, I do know much of their work does not require them to, and I certainly would not call them hobbyists.

Do you understand?
Old 30th November 2010
  #81
3 + infractions, forum membership suspended.
 

haha.. i think i've read a thread just like this on at least twice here on GS. dead horse.

it boils down to "what is music?" and various person's rigid view of what that should be instead of realizing that it's all opinion. there's been plenty that came before all of us and plenty that will come after.

art is a subjective thing. not all of it needs a verse chorus verse etc and there is different music for different things, moods, spaces, moments in time etc. don't be so square.

just because a person can or can't "play" has no bearing on music being a "hobby"

turn it up.







Old 30th November 2010
  #82
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Some ppl need to learn 3 letters....

I
M
O

Most of what is stated in forums is opinion. Some is fact. Lots of times people can't tell the difference when reading because, well, just because.

When writing posts, one should state that "I feel" or "I think" or use those three simple letters..."IMO". Unless of course, what you are stating is provable fact. Even more importantly (because most people don't do that), when reading posts one should always assume what they are reading is opinion unless the facts are easily discernible or backed up with proof.

And remember, opinions are like assholes, when you argue with one you are just gonna get a bunch shit out of it.

Have some tolerance for things you don't agree with, opinions you feel are based in fantasy and things you know to be wrong.


Too touchy feely?
Old 30th November 2010
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mans View Post
Maybe this will get my point across. The track below requires little more playing ability than of a cat that happens to walk across a piano keybed. Tracks like this don't happen away from your gear, they happen when you're highly involved with it, right there in the studio twisting knobs.
No playing ability required - check
No musical training / knowledge required - check
Gear + knob twisting required - check

Is it music? Is it sound manipulation and experimentation? - Hard to say which but I'd lean more towards sound sound manipulation and experimentation.

Why?

Because (to me at least) the definition of music is closer to the traditional understanding of the term, ie, something that involves musicians, instruments (acoustic or electronic) and a rudimentary knowledge of harmony, structure and melody.

This particular Plastikman track doesn't appear to display many of those qualities. There isn't any particular skill involved in making a similar offering either although of course it does require the artist to "express" him or herself with their equipment.

It's not dissimilar to what Tracy Emin is to art vs say somebody like Picasso.

Whilst a chimpanzee + paint + paintbrush can create similar or superior "modern art" to Emin, Emin would be incapable of creating similar or superior art to Picasso due to her lack of ability and training.

Quote:
To me this track is gold, to you it may be shit. But give it some time, it starts out slow, you just might like it.
That's fair enough, we all have our own ideas about what music is or isn't and what we like and what we don't like as much. My own opinion is that thus far, despite my best efforts, I have failed to understand or grasp the significance of the work being done by this or similar artists because imo it can easily be replicated by anybody and requires little effort or ability to do so. The work doesn't display any particular song design / structure, it is highly repetitive and monotonous, it lacks traditional elements of music making. Hence, to me it's more of an experimental or perhaps self-indulgent type work.

Then again, perhaps I'm mistaken or "stuck in the past" with "the old skool ways of doing things" or sumfink lol. Who knows
Old 30th November 2010
  #84
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by asbak View Post
No playing ability required - check
No musical training / knowledge required - check
Gear + knob twisting required - check

Is it music? Is it sound manipulation and experimentation? - Hard to say which but I'd lean more towards sound sound manipulation and experimentation.
....
Ah yes what is music? What is art?

When it comes to music I like everything from subtle piano/string pieces to bombastic soundtracks to hyper fast death metal and much in between. I'm sure much of what I like may not fit everyone's criteria of what music is.

It's music to my ears though thumbsup
Old 30th November 2010
  #85
Bio
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There is a lot of music style that do not require to play key, experimental for ex.

Check Morton Subotnick, one of the most important electronic artist, his music do not need key at all.

Quote:
the definition of music is closer to the traditional understanding of the term, ie, something that involves musicians, instruments (acoustic or electronic) and a rudimentary knowledge of harmony, structure and melody.
This to me define traditional music, electronics music is unique because synth is the only instrument where you can focus on the timbre and play with it.

No others instrument can do that.

That's why all electronic music do not need key at all.
Old 30th November 2010
  #86
3 + infractions, forum membership suspended.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bio View Post
There is a lot of music style that do not require to play key, experimental for ex.

Check Morton Subotnick, one of the most important electronic artist, his music do not need key at all.


This to me define traditional music, electronics music is unique because synth is the only instrument where you can focus on the timbre and play with it.

No others instrument can do that.

That's why all electronic music do not need key at all.
i'm not disagreeing with you... but there are countless guitar players who do the same thing with a a guitar and a bunch of pedals. the guitar is the source and they manipulate it both at the source and with the FX, or feedback or whatever.

the wild bull/silver apples of the moon are two of my favs. subotnik has made some great music.
Old 30th November 2010
  #87
Bio
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Quote:
i'm not disagreeing with you... but there are countless guitar players who do the same thing with a a guitar and a bunch of pedals. the guitar is the source and they manipulate it both at the source and with the FX, or feedback or whatever.
Yes, you're right.

But the synth is even more specialized : Guitar can't sustain a steady tone indefinitely, they can't modulate it slowly and increase the speed to audio rate etc...

Quote:
the wild bull/silver apples of the moon are two of my favs. subotnik has made some great music.
Silver apples to me thumbsup
Old 30th November 2010
  #88
3 + infractions, forum membership suspended.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by asbak View Post

Is it music? Is it sound manipulation and experimentation? - Hard to say which but I'd lean more towards sound sound manipulation and experimentation.
you're forgetting all about the arrangement. this song has a goal and it achieves it (for people who like the song) through the arrangement. i bet if you listened to it enough times in various environments you might hear more to the structure of then you do on first listen. i have that experience with a lot of music... not just electronic.

also, a lot of electronic music comes through the sound design and character of the sounds + structure.

all the various forms of techno are a different animal.
Old 30th November 2010
  #89
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grumphh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by asbak View Post

Because (to me at least) the definition of music is closer to the traditional understanding of the term, ie, something that involves musicians, instruments (acoustic or electronic) and a rudimentary knowledge of harmony, structure and melody.

Then again, perhaps I'm mistaken or "stuck in the past"
Great.
You have just thrown out african drumming with the proverbial bathwater...

Old 30th November 2010
  #90
Gear addict
 

Can you actually play?

Music = sound that people listen to for pleasure and enjoyment. That really is the beginning, middle and end of the argument.
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