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#91
19th October 2010
Old 19th October 2010
  #91
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i had an oppty to buy a sunsyn and i didn't

overall, selling out in 3 days (or whatever) is good news. I hope other boutique synth makers, who maybe have a little more price efficiency, start thinking about a poly *cough* Future Retro *cough* price point though. that is the toughy.
#92
19th October 2010
Old 19th October 2010
  #92
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A big big part of this synth is the mania surrounding it. In real life I think its much smaller. Very fun synth to program and its unique sounding in some ways but the build quality is not good and the MIDI implementation is...funky to say the least.

You can sort of tell it was build in a shed by one guy fueled on cigarettes and caffeine. I say that affectionately as much as critically because it just is what it is, warts and all.

I think in future though, that sort of instrument is not something I want to use or depend on. I admit that I much prefer trashy synths. The cheaper the better because I like to use them and not worry when I ding them or drop them or whatever. Balls to having to repair them. I guess I just got tired of handling so much of my stuff with kid gloves.
#93
19th October 2010
Old 19th October 2010
  #93
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Obviously you've never owned a Sunsyn. The build quality is top notch, solid metal, and the knobs are very very sturdy.
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#94
19th October 2010
Old 19th October 2010
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robobaby View Post
but the build quality is not good <snip> You can sort of tell it was build in a shed by one guy fueled on cigarettes and caffeine.
This has not been my experience, and I owned two for a number of years. I know you have made repeated reference to your sunsyn ownership here on GS, but I'm not sure what instrument you owned with sunsyn written on it in crayon to make such a statement. Sure between its birth and its current state the sunsyn has had its share of faults, but the build quality is not an element I ever would have called into question. I have to say, statements like that make me question the credibility of your other opinions.
#95
19th October 2010
Old 19th October 2010
  #95
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The build quality of the case was for sure nice.
See my earlier post about 2 consecutive brand-new-in-box Sunsyns that were non-working for an idea of the "functional" build quality. It doesn't matter how nice the hardware is if it just plain doesn't work.
Perhaps this is what Robobaby meant with the "build quality is not good" and "built in a shed" comments. I myself would not call it poor build quality so much as poor design quality, though it sounds like maybe this was rectified towards the end of it's original run?

Once again, though, I have to say that it was a really nice sounding synth since when I finally got it working. Not $6K nice, but blew doors on any other polysynth post 1985 or so.
#96
20th October 2010
Old 20th October 2010
  #96
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Sorry to hear you had 2 lemons.

I owned a Sunsyn in the early 00's before OS 2 came out and made use of it in production work. Around that time I also owned an xpander, nord mod, vl1, capy320, fr777 & other esoterics... For sound design, the Sunsyn was the fastest and most fun to work with. The RCO's are very unique and the morphing filter with vari-pole setup was killer. The bass capabilities covered a pretty wide spectrum for a single synth (moogish, 303, pulsesque,) making it *very* useful for EDM.

I was automating it with Max/MSP and can remember only crashing the OS twice.

Sure there were some problems but I could still get work done. Every analog poly-synth of this complexity has limitations / problems. For instance the Xpander has slow envelopes and I could crash the OS on it more easily than the Sunsyn with fast CC streams. Recently, a friend has been having troubles with his Omega8 on the MIDI front. We could cite the Andromeda and say it's OS is nearly flawless but most of my sound snob friends grew bored with it's sterility (and yes we new the tricks to keep it warm).

JM was always honest and attempted to take care of his customers no matter the pain caused to himself. He managed to recode the OS and bring it out after the Sunsyn was a commercial non-concern. That is dedication. There were some users on the yahoo list who couldn't understand german frankness and didn't have peace at heart. The rants and bickering stirred up lots of uncertainty around the synth. I wonder if that helped put an early end to the products life? As a developer it alerted me to not entering into conversations with my customers on public forums.

I have little patience for those who look to worship instruments as flawless sound making entities rather than just use them to write music. The Sunsyn was one of the best polys ever made.

If JM can get 7k or even 10k for the Sunsyn on today's market good for him. It's definitely worth that to some producers who can hear the sonic value of the instrument and enjoy the fun workflow. I'm deep in modular land these days, but someday I'll probably own another.
#97
20th October 2010
Old 20th October 2010
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
I hope other boutique synth makers, who maybe have a little more price efficiency, start thinking about a poly *cough* Future Retro *cough* price point though.
*Raises hand and waves wallet*
#98
20th October 2010
Old 20th October 2010
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rids View Post
Obviously you've never owned a Sunsyn. The build quality is top notch, solid metal, and the knobs are very very sturdy.
Formerly owned #67 so one of the earlier ones...its nowhere near the kind of build quality you get with say Access Virus or the uber famous Rolands and theres no way you can even argue that with a straight face.

The silk screen print wore off complete at the top row so I couldn't tell what the MIDI IN and MIDI Thru was without sticking labels on the back. The chasis is course and painted and the paint chips off pretty easy. Dings are very visible. Also the side panels on my one didn't fit properly so there was a gap of a few millimetres on one side. The wooden end cheeks are also very soft. If you press your fingernail gently into it you can leave permanent indentations. Its very easy to ding the panels you move it around unlike my guitar which is made from pretty hard wood and the lacquer is hard as a rock. I've bumped it into tables accidentally and it doesn't even crack the lacquer.

The encoders are pretty shit too (when I had an Xpander those were way better and survived years of abuse). 2 of the encoders came loose and all of them were really jumpy. The resolution is also far far too fine during the filter and envelope tuning routine so you are there twiddling them for ages which is part of the reason why tuning the thing takes so long. The pots are ok but they aint Virus pots for sure. The marker rubbed off on the cutoff knob. MKII looks to have different knobs like the new XBase so I doubt its a problem with the new run.

Not exactly sure how my opinion suddenly disqualifies me from having owned one but hey. Its a nice synth, especially for a one man job but it cannot compete with the kind of Q&A you get from Roland and Access et al and how could it? Roland has devisions solely dedicated to quality assurance and it shows. I liked Sunsyn but after a while I got the whole thing out of my system and felt I just wanted 3 grand instead of the synth. I sold it locally for 2990 euros. I've been slowly transitioning back to software for a while now anyway. The only hardware synths I've got left are the JD-990 and Access Virus TI and its just my opinion of course but I don't think I want to go rare, old and unreliable anymore.
#99
20th October 2010
Old 20th October 2010
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robobaby View Post
I have owned a Sunsyn. #67 so one of the earlier ones...its nowhere near the kind of build quality you get with say Access Virus.
I love Virus TI, but can you believe it died twice in two years without being moved out of its place. It is well built synth, fully agree, but shit happens.
Sunsyn is hand made, not industrial made product like Virus, so 'feel' of garage production has sense to some extent.
For 6 years of use, except software quirks, it never failed.
And with OS 2 it works much better than most of analogue polys I have or had (and it is a lot trust me).
It is rare product, specialized one and I agree that for most of synth (ab)users is better to spend money elsewhere.
But those who know, will not part from it easy
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#100
20th October 2010
Old 20th October 2010
  #100
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They do change hands fairly regularly. Every couple of months you can see one on the Bay but they get sold quick and for big money. Except that guy whose still trying to sell #172 since its been relisted about 5 times. If you live in Cali you can get his for about 3.8k euros. I'm pretty sure hes a gearslut because he bought it from one and I know he wants to break even after eBay fees so try to find the thread in the buy/sell forum.

The reasons for selling are probably all different but its Jomox and that means it has MIDI thats all over the place and it has typically Jomox quirks that make you go . For example, any owners from 1.22 era or earlier inevitably attempted to calibrate the envelopes only to find that the release envelopes have to be done blind because the release timer doesn't fit on the LED display. That right there is so Jomox it hurts.

Its a remarkable synth in many ways but it is not without its problems. Some people just don't feel that dealing with the bad is worth the good. Some people feel the opposite. Shrugs. You can tell which group I fall into and which one Rids and BF fell into.
#101
20th October 2010
Old 20th October 2010
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robobaby View Post
They do change hands fairly regularly. Every couple of months you can see one on the Bay but they get sold quick and for big money. Except that guy whose still trying to sell #172 since its been relisted about 5 times. If you live in Cali you can get his for about 3.8k euros. I'm pretty sure hes a gearslut because he bought it from one and I know he wants to break even after eBay fees so try to find the thread in the buy/sell forum.

The reasons for selling are probably all different but its Jomox and that means it has MIDI thats all over the place and it has typically Jomox quirks that make you go . For example, any owners from 1.22 era or earlier inevitably attempted to calibrate the envelopes only to find that the release envelopes have to be done blind because the release timer doesn't fit on the LED display. That right there is so Jomox it hurts.

Its a remarkable synth in many ways but it is not without its problems. Some people just don't feel that dealing with the bad is worth the good. Some people feel the opposite. Shrugs. You can tell which group I fall into and which one Rids and BF fell into.
Fine, you didn't like your synth and you sold it. You got fair amount of cash in return and be happy
Period.
I'll sell sooner my JP8 (or any combo of digital synths worth 6k+) than Sunsyn with last upgrade, as it works smoothly and delivers pure joy.
I use and tried several dozens of VSTi during years (in all fairness they are good for most of jobs to be done) and it doesn't help.
Sunsyn is not 'must have' to make music.
It is luxury that is hard to justify by comparisons (like - is Lamborghini more of sport car than Nissan GTR? Many prefer GTR for obvious reasons, as it is mostly not inferior in key characteristics).
#102
20th October 2010
Old 20th October 2010
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robobaby View Post
The only hardware synths I've got left are the JD-990 and Access Virus TI and its just my opinion of course but I don't think I want to go rare, old and unreliable anymore.
I'm a bit surprised those are the only two you would decide to keep. A ROMpler (albeit one that gets lots of love around here), and a VA. If I decided to minimize my studio and go down to a couple of hardware synths I'd probably lose the digital ones right away. Not sure which two I would keep. Maybe ARP 2600 for a monosynth and the Voyetra 8 or MKS-80 for poly. I wouldn't keep the Virus as a poly over the analogs, but that being said I think the Virus is excellent and have no plans to get rid of it. If I was avoiding "rare, old, and unreliable" I'd probably choose the SE-1X and the Andromeda.

I certainly wouldn't choose the Fantom and the Virus as my only hardware synths. But, to each their own.
#103
20th October 2010
Old 20th October 2010
  #103
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Its not about being a ROMpler or a digital synth or an analogue synth. I don't think any of that is relevant. I liked the sound of Xpander and Sunsyn alot but they were retrograde and...flaky. In the end making music turned out to be counter intuitive and frustrating. I gave it a couple of years but it just wasn't working out for me. Maybe it'll work for you. I kept the Virus and JD-990 because I use them alot and its really as simple as that.
#104
21st October 2010
Old 21st October 2010
  #104
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While Robobaby's comments on build quality aren't legit (though I think he was mainly misreferenced software issues, of jumpy knobs and OS or CC hickups, for build quality). But his comments on old OS issues are legit. And I definitely respect anyone that doesn't see analog vs. digital vs. rompler and only sees a good synth and hears good sound. I know many that gave up on the Sunsyn because of it's buggy early OS.

For the record, I owned 2 Sunsyns. I has one either in the 60s or 70s (serial #). And I now have one of the last ones up to now. The old one I had crashed on me once when I was using it. Since I updated to the latest OS 1.23, it never gave me issues for CC or OS crashes. Everything worked smooth. However I did notice a little something in one of the knobs hickuping every now and then. Not a big issue for me since it didn't do it much, but I witnessed it.

But now, since I have one of the last produced, my Sunsyn never gives me any issues and is as smooth as silk operating it (OS 1.23).
#105
21st October 2010
Old 21st October 2010
  #105
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The black text flaked off all the way at the top of the unit so you can no longer tell the difference between the MIDI OUT/IN/THRU port. I had to put stickers on it. 2 of the encoders became loose and wobbled alarmingly. The skippyness of them may or may not be software related but I thought they were pretty terrible and those 4 encoders are critical to programming routing elements and assigning modulators.

I had a Juno-6 at one point that made it through 20 years+ and looked like it survived water damage and the silk screen print is still legible. I can't see The Sunsyn's paint job surviving that long.

Software wise I still got pretty bad problems with 1.22 but whether you get mega problems or not depends on how you use it, what MIDI controller you use and what DAW you use. Most of the really bad OS bugs have been fixed prior to OS 1.22. The last great problem of the Sunsyn is its MIDI implementation which is fairly comprehensive but also quite sketchy.

If you have the Sunsyn on its own MIDI port (no THRU chains) and you only send note on/off, velocity and aftertouch to the Sunsyn then its fine.

If you try to send anything beyond that to the Sunsyn then things can get messy and fast depending on what MIDI you throw at it and how much. Some remote control makes it freak out and there are several people on the yahoo group that complain about it though there are very few documented solutions. I also had problems when it wasn't the first device in a MIDI THRU chain since it just wasn't responding correctly to my data maps and channel routing in MIDI OX.

It doesn't handle scripts well which is related to the point above in the sense that scripts just bombard the synth with loads of MIDI triggers at the same time, some or all of which might freak out the Sunsyn. One of the things I like to do is have all of my synths (software and hardware) controllable from a single keyboard and I don't mean just the knobs. I sometimes want some of the important buttons too, especially the multi function ones which need to be scripted in order to correctly cycle through all its functions correctly.

(edit: the Virus keyboard has a nice blank space next to the control surface which I use to put my dinky laptop on. Everything I need is within arms reach which is just perfect for what I want to do.)

I'll try to find a screenshot of the dashboard template I made for the Sunsyn because I did set it up so that I had complete remote control of it, almost like a VSTi but it caused lots of problems that lead to it crashing or behaving unpredictably.

Some of the worst issues I managed to fix however. Example:

cc#10 = pan. In 99.99% of all MIDI gear cc#10 is expected to be a bipolar value (-64 to +63) where

-64 = left
0 = center
+63 = right

On the Sunsyn, (panning) LFO3 responds to cc#10 messages and the rate of the LFO has a unipolar range where 0 = off and +31 = full speed.

You can see where the problem occurs right? Every time your DAW sends cc#10 messages, the Sunsyn will not pan left or right when anticipated but will speed up the rate LFO3. Now my DAW sends a bunch of reset triggers when you hit start/stop on the transport with cc#10 and cc#7 being affected.

I figured it out because on the Sunsyn's LED display, if I use MIDI OX to inject a cc#10 = 0 message, the panning LFO rate turns to 64 (which is an impossible value). The LFO ping ponged like crazy every time it receives this message and happened every time I created an automation clip, every time I hit start/stop, every time I send any MIDI message or used any script that does anything with panning to the Sunsyn.

The easy fix is to use a virtual MIDI cable like Yoke or Maple and set up a data map in MIDI OX where you discard all outgoing cc#10 messages on whatever MIDI port and channel the Sunsyn is on. Thats a very hamfisted solution though. A more elegant one would be to transform value ranges instead so that you do have remote control of the panning LFO across its full range (i.e. you would have to transform all outgoing cc#10 messages to unipolar values and transform 0 to 127 range to 0 to 31).

I also had to do this with cc#7 because some triggers caused it to reset the output volume and the Sunsyn can really go loud as shit. I had a few scary moments. All of this is irrelevant to the Xpander because it only responds to sysex. I should have done my research before buying it so that one is on me. It was my favourite sounding synth by a long way but I didn't feel in control of it, programming it is slow compared to more modern synths and so I always found it difficult to articulate.

The bottom line is that if you don't ever remote control your synths other than for note on/off and velocity then you are fine. If you want full remote control, you'll need to run MIDI OX all the time with a pretty big data map and get used to reading incoming/outgoing messages and seeing which ones screw up the Sunsyn. Certain remote messages make it just crash completely. For example, spamming glide on/off remotely on my Virus keyboard would make the Sunsyn crash and it wasn't a random thing. It was reproducible. It suddenly makes that 'clicking' noise it does when you turn it on, the LED display goes blank, sound cuts out and the whole unit becomes responsive. You have to switch it off and then on to make it work again.

I still have the data maps and port routings saved in MIDI OX if some folks experience some MIDI related problems. I did fix quite alot of my issues but I ended up spending way too much time fixing things than making music and became terribly unproductive. It sounded great and you do get that warm glow that people with Porsches must feel every time they get in their car but I wasn't getting anything done. Setting up VSTis for total remote control is much quicker and easier, you don't need to maintain lots of data maps to fix bad MIDI and I've pretty much never crashed a softsynth with MIDI events.

Finally, you never have to think about any of this stuff until it makes problems for you. Alot of this stuff I don't even need to think about with softsynths or Virus TI or whatever because they just work from the get go. I think its worth mentioning because its not like you can go into a store and try out a Sunsyn if you are interested in buying one. You'll know what its about from the < 200 people that bought one. If MIDI is a big part of your setup then you better start learning MIDI OX because you are going to be running it full time. If MIDI is not important to you beyond basic keyboard control then you'll skip alot of this frustration.

Edit: If you were wondering, XBase 888/999 also has very flaky MIDI. MachineDrum isn't comparable to a 999 but one thing that makes MachineDrum stand above the beaten corpses of other drum machines is its *amazing* UI and rock solid MIDI. I think these things are highly underrated aspects of electronic instruments on this forum.
#106
21st October 2010
Old 21st October 2010
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robobaby View Post
The black text flaked off all the way at the top of the unit so you can no longer tell the difference between the MIDI OUT/IN/THRU port. I had to put stickers on it. 2 of the encoders became loose and wobbled alarmingly. The skippyness of them may or may not be software related but I thought they were pretty terrible and those 4 encoders are critical to programming routing elements and assigning modulators.

I had a Juno-6 at one point that made it through 20 years+ and looked like it survived water damage and the silk screen print is still legible. I can't see The Sunsyn's paint job surviving that long.

Software wise I still got pretty bad problems with 1.22 but whether you get mega problems or not depends on how you use it, what MIDI controller you use and what DAW you use. Most of the really bad OS bugs have been fixed prior to OS 1.22. The last great problem of the Sunsyn is its MIDI implementation which is fairly comprehensive but also quite sketchy.

If you have the Sunsyn on its own MIDI port (no THRU chains) and you only send note on/off, velocity and aftertouch to the Sunsyn then its fine.

If you try to send anything beyond that to the Sunsyn then things can get messy and fast depending on what MIDI you throw at it and how much. Some remote control makes it freak out and there are several people on the yahoo group that complain about it though there are very few documented solutions. I also had problems when it wasn't the first device in a MIDI THRU chain since it just wasn't responding correctly to my data maps and channel routing in MIDI OX.

It doesn't handle scripts well which is related to the point above in the sense that scripts just bombard the synth with loads of MIDI triggers at the same time, some or all of which might freak out the Sunsyn. One of the things I like to do is have all of my synths (software and hardware) controllable from a single keyboard and I don't mean just the knobs. I sometimes want some of the important buttons too, especially the multi function ones which need to be scripted in order to correctly cycle through all its functions correctly.

(edit: the Virus keyboard has a nice blank space next to the control surface which I use to put my dinky laptop on. Everything I need is within arms reach which is just perfect for what I want to do.)

I'll try to find a screenshot of the dashboard template I made for the Sunsyn because I did set it up so that I had complete remote control of it, almost like a VSTi but it caused lots of problems that lead to it crashing or behaving unpredictably.

Some of the worst issues I managed to fix however. Example:

cc#10 = pan. In 99.99% of all MIDI gear cc#10 is expected to be a bipolar value (-64 to +63) where

-64 = left
0 = center
+63 = right

On the Sunsyn, (panning) LFO3 responds to cc#10 messages and the rate of the LFO has a unipolar range where 0 = off and +31 = full speed.

You can see where the problem occurs right? Every time your DAW sends cc#10 messages, the Sunsyn will not pan left or right when anticipated but will speed up the rate LFO3. Now my DAW sends a bunch of reset triggers when you hit start/stop on the transport with cc#10 and cc#7 being affected.

I figured it out because on the Sunsyn's LED display, if I use MIDI OX to inject a cc#10 = 0 message, the panning LFO rate turns to 64 (which is an impossible value). The LFO ping ponged like crazy every time it receives this message and happened every time I created an automation clip, every time I hit start/stop, every time I send any MIDI message or used any script that does anything with panning to the Sunsyn.

The easy fix is to use a virtual MIDI cable like Yoke or Maple and set up a data map in MIDI OX where you discard all outgoing cc#10 messages on whatever MIDI port and channel the Sunsyn is on. Thats a very hamfisted solution though. A more elegant one would be to transform value ranges instead so that you do have remote control of the panning LFO across its full range (i.e. you would have to transform all outgoing cc#10 messages to unipolar values and transform 0 to 127 range to 0 to 31).

I also had to do this with cc#7 because some triggers caused it to reset the output volume and the Sunsyn can really go loud as shit. I had a few scary moments. All of this is irrelevant to the Xpander because it only responds to sysex. I should have done my research before buying it so that one is on me. It was my favourite sounding synth by a long way but I didn't feel in control of it, programming it is slow compared to more modern synths and so I always found it difficult to articulate.

The bottom line is that if you don't ever remote control your synths other than for note on/off and velocity then you are fine. If you want full remote control, you'll need to run MIDI OX all the time with a pretty big data map and get used to reading incoming/outgoing messages and seeing which ones screw up the Sunsyn. Certain remote messages make it just crash completely. For example, spamming glide on/off remotely on my Virus keyboard would make the Sunsyn crash and it wasn't a random thing. It was reproducible. It suddenly makes that 'clicking' noise it does when you turn it on, the LED display goes blank, sound cuts out and the whole unit becomes responsive. You have to switch it off and then on to make it work again.

I still have the data maps and port routings saved in MIDI OX if some folks experience some MIDI related problems. I did fix quite alot of my issues but I ended up spending way too much time fixing things than making music and became terribly unproductive. It sounded great and you do get that warm glow that people with Porsches must feel every time they get in their car but I wasn't getting anything done. Setting up VSTis for total remote control is much quicker and easier, you don't need to maintain lots of data maps to fix bad MIDI and I've pretty much never crashed a softsynth with MIDI events.

Finally, you never have to think about any of this stuff until it makes problems for you. Alot of this stuff I don't even need to think about with softsynths or Virus TI or whatever because they just work from the get go. I think its worth mentioning because its not like you can go into a store and try out a Sunsyn if you are interested in buying one. You'll know what its about from the < 200 people that bought one. If MIDI is a big part of your setup then you better start learning MIDI OX because you are going to be running it full time. If MIDI is not important to you beyond basic keyboard control then you'll skip alot of this frustration.

Edit: If you were wondering, XBase 888/999 also has very flaky MIDI. MachineDrum isn't comparable to a 999 but one thing that makes MachineDrum stand above the beaten corpses of other drum machines is its *amazing* UI and rock solid MIDI. I think these things are highly underrated aspects of electronic instruments on this forum.
Uff...
You really push it to the limit.
Before 2.0 I noticed some problems with MIDI, but not so after upgrade.
And I never, ever use MIDI through, just for profilactic purposes with all MIDI gears, really no reason to do it.
#107
21st October 2010
Old 21st October 2010
  #107
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Mans is online now
Quoted in full
#108
24th October 2010
Old 24th October 2010
  #108
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I just placed my order. I can't wait to welcome the new baby to my synth family!
#109
25th October 2010
Old 25th October 2010
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue View Post
I just placed my order. I can't wait to welcome the new baby to my synth family!
You'll love it for sure thumbsup
#110
26th October 2010
Old 26th October 2010
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue View Post
I just placed my order. I can't wait to welcome the new baby to my synth family!
When did you place it? I was messing around on their site and I think 3 days from when it was announced they were all gone...
Rusty_OHara
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#111
26th October 2010
Old 26th October 2010
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rids View Post
When did you place it? I was messing around on their site and I think 3 days from when it was announced they were all gone...
Source:

*No worry, there will be more in a while but we have to finish the existing orders.*
#112
26th October 2010
Old 26th October 2010
  #112
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Robobaby is offline
Someone in Cali just put this guy out of his misery.

He bought it from a Gearslut and paid over the odds back then so now hes trying to sell at a (substantial) loss after relisting 5 times. Just buy a holiday to Berlin at some point next year and drop into Jomox HQ if you want the 2.0 upgrade. It might even work out cheaper than buying one of the new ones and Berlin owns anyway so...
#113
22nd November 2010
Old 22nd November 2010
  #113
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i couldn't be bothered to read all the replies of people posting about how unjustly expensive this synth is

yay beer

i just thought it would be cool to point out that Metasonix has posted youtube videos of the painstaking process of putting together a wretch machine

all the dollar signs melt before my eyes when i see the work involved. yeah.. the parts are old technology.. and cheap if bought in bulk and sometimes cheap anyway... but all those cost savings of building something like this yourself.. not even considering designing the circuits and shit... go out the window when you realize the amount of work involved.... and what if you **** something up... i used to do computer networking on a large scale... and trouble shooting shit really... really... really ****ing sucked when something that should've been plug and play wasn't

so... how much would it cost to get the functionality of the sunsyn in a modular synth?.... and how much time does having everything contained in the sunsyn save you over having the alternative modular beast?

in my opinion the sunsyn isn't overpriced... a tool is a tool... if it is the one for the job your want to embark on... price isn't even a consideration.. after all a pair of pliers will turn the nut on a bolt... but never as fast or easy as a ratchet can
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#114
22nd November 2010
Old 22nd November 2010
  #114
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Robobaby is offline
^^^ Thats only easy to say when you are flush.
#115
24th November 2010
Old 24th November 2010
  #115
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mik303 is offline
i bought myself a sunsyn mk2

UPS brought my long awaited package today: SUNSYN MK2.
It has always been my dreamsynth #1 and I was very dissapointed to find out that it had one wobbly knob.
I really don't believe it's from the transportation because the package was intact and there was not any sing of damage.

I thought that I could live with it because I could buy a new pot and fix it. But the trouble didn't end here. After playing with it for many more hours I was shocked to find out many more faults:

- One of the voices has very high noise floor for VCO1.

- Digital oscillators make all kind of zips and zaps (some strange transients) and crackling noises
and sometimes the sound keeps cutting if I play something around C7 or higher.

- Digital OSC's has some weird background noises once you go higher on the keyboard. I am familiar with artifacts that happen with digital oscillators. This is really something else. It sounds like it's making some random noises depending on what note you press. They also stop tracking about 2-3 octaves before the analog oscillators.

- Filters are so out of tune that it makes me wonder if this unit has been calibrated properly. I recently got myself a JP8 that had been sitting unused for 6 years and I only felt that I had to calibrate the oscillators.
I have done the proper warmup and used the autotune but it's still like this.

One thing worth a mention is that I have a PC that has the sidepanel open but I have a hard time figuring out which one is noisier, my computer or sunsyn with it's noisy fan. I knew it had fan but it's a surprise for me that it's this noisy.

The manual that I got from Jomox homepage also mentions a memorycard slot at the back of the unit that can be used to store your own sounds and wavesets. Guess what people? It's gone in MK2.
There should have been some information about this on their homepage. It was a very important feature for me.

I have emailed Jürgen about these issues and this is a part of his reply:

"please pack the SunSyn safe and let me know when I can order UPS to pick it
up. But I am 100% sure that most of the issues you describe are part of the SunSyn as it is. I will check, but I'm very sure that your expectations are again higher than
anything Jomox can deliver."

I am glad he will take it back for repairs but somehow I
I feel a bit insulted after spending 5000 euros on his synthesizer only to get this kind of reply from him. If these symptoms are normal for a sunsyn then what sense does it make to make a new batch of a such a faulty product?

I had a huge fight with my GF because I wanted this synth and I also had to took a loan from the bank to get it. I can't believe I'm saying this but suddenly I'm not sure if it was worth it.

I hope these problems will be fixed because otherwise I am not going to buy a single Jomox product in my life.
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#116
24th November 2010
Old 24th November 2010
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mik303 View Post
The manual that I got from Jomox homepage also mentions a memorycard slot at the back of the unit that can be used to store your own sounds and wavesets. Guess what people? It's gone in MK2.
There should have been some information about this on their homepage. It was a very important feature for me.
The manual probably wasn't updated completely, correctly or perhaps at all. You are dealing with a one man boutique shop, and some times the big three with the staff to make a good manual can't get one out error free. (edit: just downloaded the manual from the Mk2 download page, and on page 2 it plainly says "sunsyn version 1.0". This appears to be the initial release of the manual, and thus I wouldn't expect it to contain anything specifically relevant to the Mk2 release.) That said, the card slot never worked afaik so including it on the new units seems like nothing more than unnecessary work. If you look at the pictures on the II release page you can see that the slot has been removed.


The 2.0 update announcement, which can be found here does say
Quote:
Originally Posted by j0m0x
-Own waves or short samples can be transferred to the SunSyn by sysex midi dump.
-We provide an editor (PC/MAC) that can convert any WAV or AIFF files on the computer and transfer them to the SunSyn. Each RCO bank can be transferred separately.
The 2.0 wave editor announcement can be found here and download links can be found in the downloads section under SunSyn Mk2.

All that said, it is a bummer that you knob was wonky. It does seem that Jurgen is on point in looking into your issues. And no offense, but I don't see how you overextending yourself financially and not having the forethought to discuss a significant financial decision with your significant other before doing so does anything but illuminate why you might be so inclined to be quick to insult. Best of luck.
#117
24th November 2010
Old 24th November 2010
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mik303 View Post
I hope these problems will be fixed because otherwise I am not going to buy a single Jomox product in my life.
Welcome to analogue world

You were right to expect great synth and IMO Sunsyn is exactly that, but as (my guess, sorry if wrong) you are likelly not experienced with analogue synths in general some issues caused response expressed in your post. With much beloved classic synths, sometimes they die next day after purchase and it takes months to make them functionally right.

I'm sure Jurgen will take care of it, as description of issues tells me something is technically wrong with filters so much out of tune (had no such problem ever).
Noise and digital osc issues again sound as way too much, although some of such by-effects are part of hybrid synths character (not to say that they should be too loud thus).
I had similar multiple issues with brand new DSI Poly Evolver (added to my DSI Rack used previously) and to my surprise the problem was in one of ICs that didn't sit well in its socket (likelly due to transportation), although it took some time for technician to identify the problem.
I think that Jomox will take new synth back and return your money, if you insist on that.
#118
24th November 2010
Old 24th November 2010
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mik303 View Post
I am glad he will take it back for repairs but somehow I
I feel a bit insulted after spending 5000 euros on his synthesizer only to get this kind of reply from him.
Insulted? What kind of reply did you expect?
He's offered to take it back, check it out, and repair anything that might be wrong with it. That seems reasonable to me..

But perhaps it is worth keeping in mind also, that it is a notoriously quirky analogue synthesiser made by a small company. It's not really fair to compare it with anything mass produced and made by a large company like Roland etc.
Which is likely at least part of the reason you wanted one..

Im sure Jürgen will look after you & your synth.
#119
24th November 2010
Old 24th November 2010
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GYang View Post
Welcome to analogue world

You were right to expect great synth anf IMO Sunsyn is exactly that, but as (my guess, sorry if wrong) you are likelly not experienced with analogue synths in general some if issues caused response expressed in your post. With much beloved classic synths, sometimes they die next day after purchase and it takes months to make them functionally right.
Mik303's response is totally understandable, and to assume that he must be new to the world of analog is ridiculous. "Much beloved classic synths" that one purchases new directly from the manufacturer shouldn't exhibit the sorts of problems Mik303 describes unless something has gone horribly wrong (like having an IC become unseated during shipping). But nothing has gone wrong here; that's just the "finished" state of the Sunsyn.

Jurgen wrote that "But I am 100% sure that most of the issues you describe are part of the SunSyn as it is. I will check, but I'm very sure that your expectations are again higher than anything Jomox can deliver."

This is the problem. When you shell out over $5 grand for a new-from-factory boutique polysynth, you have every right to have high expectations... not impossibly high expectations, but high enough to rule out a noisy signal path, OS bugs, and wobbly knobs. It seems like the Sunsyn was released (both times) with the expectation that buyers will love it, warts and all. But there are, at least for me, too many warts for me to seriously consider buying it.

I really admire Jurgen for building a synth that is so close to being the synth of my dreams. I love the combination of analog and digital oscillators with analog VCFs and VCAs, and this has always attracted me to the Sunsyn.
#120
24th November 2010
Old 24th November 2010
  #120
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mik303 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by GYang View Post
Welcome to analogue world

You were right to expect great synth anf IMO Sunsyn is exactly that, but as (my guess, sorry if wrong) you are likelly not experienced with analogue synths in general some if issues caused response expressed in your post. With much beloved classic synths, sometimes they die next day after purchase and it takes months to make them functionally right.

I'm sure Jurgen will take care of it, as description of issues tells me something is technically wrong with filters so much out of tune (had no such problem ever).
Noise and digital osc issues again sound as way too much, although some of such by-effects are part of hybrid synths character (not to say that they should be too loud thus).
I had similar multiple issues with brand new DSI Poly Evolver (added to my DSI Rack used previously) and to my surprise the problem was in one of ICs that didn't sit well in its socket (likelly due to transportation), although it took some time for technician to identify the problem.
I think that Jomox will take new synth back and return your money, if you insist on that.
Thank you for your great reply. I could probably check if the IC's were not seated well in the sockets if it didn't break the warranty.

I have to say that I am not new to analogue synths. I currently have 17 analog synthesizers. Many of them are hybrids but to me those are analog synths too

I'm also sure that he would give me my money back, it's just that I don't want my money back, I just want to get it fixed so I can start using it.


I currently got a few weeks vacation from work and I waited so much that I could get my hands on the sunsyn and make some music with it.
Now it feels like my vacation is partly going to waste because I have to send it back and wait for it again.
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