Why Lemur > iPad?

[Tibbon]

Is there any real reason to buy a Lemur these days over an iPad? The current prices of Lemurs seem a bit steep seeing for $500 you can have a really competent multitouch device that can do the same.

And moreso, why the Lemur still damn expensive? Obviously you can create/ship a multitouch screen for far, far, far less. I know at one point it was more expensive, but the prices of components have fallen drastically. They aren't creating on Apple's scale, but still...

[droolmaster0]

Originally Posted by Tibbon

Is there any real reason to buy a Lemur these days over an iPad? The current prices of Lemurs seem a bit steep seeing for $500 you can have a really competent multitouch device that can do the same.

And moreso, why the Lemur still damn expensive? Obviously you can create/ship a multitouch screen for far, far, far less. I know at one point it was more expensive, but the prices of components have fallen drastically. They aren't creating on Apple's scale, but still...

I used a Lemur for a little bit, and have an ipad.

The depth of programming that you can do with the Lemur software goes far, far beyond anything that I've seen on the Ipad. I love the ipad, but I think that people are way too glib with the comparisons. If you want to use somewhat simple (though very good) multitouch controller apps, etc, get the ipad. If you want apps that will actually create sound, obviously get the ipad. But if you want a rather deep programming environment, get the lemur. I suspect that they will be coming out with an upgraded version with more advanced multitouch hardware, though....I seem to remember hearing a rumor about this.

[UH417]

Dedicated and focused interface vs. hackjob.

[Diantre]

The Lemur's screen is supposedly much more precise. I haven't tried it myself, tho.

[Spectral Climax]

Originally Posted by Diantre

The Lemur's screen is supposedly much more precise. I haven't tried it myself, tho

Originally Posted by UH417

Dedicated and focused interface vs. hackjob.

...+1


also...i have demoed a lemur and an ipad...I have to say that the build quality of Lemur is ages better than an ipad...to put it simple: A lemur can stand too much abuse in gigs etc, whereas an ipad is much more delicate and not suitable for hard use IMO.

[RaboonTheBaboon]

I think being able to, for example, read the NYT on an iPad is a pretty big deal. Of course it's useless musically, but it makes the iPad a much more affordable gadget when it has multiple uses around and outside the house. I couldn't justify the cost of a Lemur, as it's so specific in it's use, whereas my iPad I can dump in my bag and use Skype when out of the studio (not to mention Monkey Island!).

On the architecture/app front, I'm sure as time progresses apps will come out that make it an even better device than it is already for music, precisely because even though people call apple gadgets fads or whatnot, they sell and therefore there will be people looking to cash in and work with that consumer base. Maybe the apps won't have the raw power or the behind the scenes clout and "made for music"-ness of the Lemur, but they'll still make music too.

Having said that, I wouldn't mind a Lemur :D

[kilon]

Dont forget that it has been months since the release for ipad and years since the release of lemur. Ipad is simply not mature enough. And yet he have seen it compete vigorously with Lemur. I dont have a single doubt that in time it will be the perfect replacement and go far beyond anything Lemur dreamed of.

[operaman]

One is for a specific use and guaranteed stability. The other will be more widely used and is more mass market. It is an apples to oranges debate. The Lemur catered to a specific crowd, mostly those who are active musicians making good money who needed the device for specific live use and real time control.

The iPad will be more for the hobbyist, because it will be able to in the near future do most of what a Lemur does, and will serve multiple purposes, but will not have the same stability and integration to where one can truly trust it for Live Performance night in and night out.

Personally, I see there being a place for both. If I am a top act making good money for live performance, I am getting a Lemur. Period. If I am a hobbyist (which I am with synths and composition) I am getting an iPad for now.

[Spectral Climax]

Originally Posted by kilon

Ipad is simply not mature enough.

This doesn't matter...no matter if it's mature or not, it will never be a Lemur because it wasn't designed as a music performance tool. Ipad is an expensive toy compared to a Lemur for music performances, interface programming etc...

[kilon]

Originally Posted by Spectral Climax

This doesn't matter...no matter if it's mature or not, it will never be a Lemur because it wasn't designed as a music performance tool. Ipad is an expensive toy compared to a Lemur for music performances, interface programming etc...

Your argument is very weak, computers were never made for making music, yet here we are, computers were never made for 3d graphics, and yet here we are, computers were never made to replace human intelligence and yet here we are, need to carry on ?

Ipad is a computer and a computer by itself is extremely adaptable . Continuously it evolves, expands and upgrades.

Before ipad came out , everybody (with some exceptions) was lauging to the idea that ipad can be used for serious music making. I predicted that many serious music apps will emerge . I was told I was crazy, since that was NOT the purpose of ipad, which was strictly for web surfing and doing a couple of simple things. I was wrong .... Those apps came in a few month, I predicted that they will come a year later. Even I could not be so optimistic.

Lemur days are numbered. Already ipad, evolves like crazy.

If you dont improve, you die forgoten, its simple as that.

[Spectral Climax]

Originally Posted by kilon

Your argument is very weak, computers were never made for making music, yet here we are, computers were never made for 3d graphics, and yet here we are, computers were never made to replace human intelligence and yet here we are, need to carry on ?

Ipad is a computer and a computer by itself is extremely adaptable . Continuously it evolves, expands and upgrades.

Before ipad came out , everybody (with some exceptions) was lauging to the idea that ipad can be used for serious music making. I predicted that many serious music apps will emerge . I was told I was crazy, since that was NOT the purpose of ipad, which was strictly for web surfing and doing a couple of simple things. I was wrong .... Those apps came in a few month, I predicted that they will come a year later. Even I could not be so optimistic.

Lemur days are numbered. Already ipad, evolves like crazy.

If you dont improve, you die forgoten, its simple as that.

Personal computers were made to be flexible generic tools... Ipad is not a computer neither a professional music tool like Lemur. It's a very specific and limited product aimed at people who want to read emails/books etc, watch movies, play games, surf the internet and listen to music on the go. It's absolutely controlled by Apple and they will never put a midi or an ethernet port on it because it's useless to most of their users. It isn't made for musicians and it's "midi peripherals" are not generic for any app, because of Apple's "security reasons" and proprietary protocols etc... The fact that there are many "simple" but functional, useless and useful apps for it doesn't mean that it is improved ot it can be compared with a Lemur. Most of the ipad music apps, work with wireless to midi "patches"...nothing practical, nothing officially supported by Apple for musicians. Also, ipads will never be built like a Lemur because their cost will go to the stars, and most of the ipad users don't need a heavy/tough ipad with high movement resolution.

Apple might improve iPad at high levels the following years, but they won't make it a music tool IMO. As i can remember though, they have registered a patent to put a touchscreen on their iMac, so, that could be a real music tool, because iMacs run a "real" OS and they have user/program controllable ports...

[Fred Pearson]

Originally Posted by Spectral Climax

Ipad is not a computer neither a professional music tool like Lemur.

Sorry. I don't really want to get too involved in this I just thought I'd point this out:

Computer: A computer is a programmable machine that receives input, stores and manipulates data, and provides output in a useful format.

I personally would say that the iPad does come under this description.

Take care

Peace

[kilon]

Originally Posted by Spectral Climax

Personal computers were made to be flexible generic tools... Ipad is not a computer neither a professional music tool like Lemur. It's a very specific and limited product aimed at people who want to read emails/books etc, watch movies, play games, surf the internet and listen to music on the go. It's absolutely controlled by Apple and they will never put a midi or an ethernet port on it because it's useless to most of their users. It isn't made for musicians and it's "midi peripherals" are not generic for any app, because of Apple's "security reasons" and proprietary protocols etc... The fact that there are many "simple" but functional, useless and useful apps for it doesn't mean that it is improved ot it can be compared with a Lemur. Most of the ipad music apps, work with wireless to midi "patches"...nothing practical, nothing officially supported by Apple for musicians. Also, ipads will never be built like a Lemur because their cost will go to the stars, and most of the ipad users don't need a heavy/tough ipad with high movement resolution.

Apple might improve iPad at high levels the following years, but they won't make it a music tool IMO. As i can remember though, they have registered a patent to put a touchscreen on their iMac, so, that could be a real music tool, because iMacs run a "real" OS and they have user/program controllable ports...

I would discuss your post in detail, but if you say that ipad is not a computer well, things cannot go very far. When even your phone nowdays is a computer.

Computers are not just desktops and laptops. If it can take software and develop software for it, has input and output it is a computer.

The fact that ipad has specific limitation, like no standard usb port, that does not make it a non computer. As computers existed way before com-uter having usb ports or having any kind of musical suport that they have today.

Again I repeat we are talking about a product here , ipad, that is only a few month old and yet you draw some bold conclusion that Apple will any way inhibit its evolution as a serious musical tool. The same Apple, that made a standard, things like usb , firewire, LED screens etc. etc.

I dont see why would Apple resist the opportunity to get more customers, that makes no sense whatsoever.

Apple is more likely to keep inovating than stop the evolution of ipad in any way.

[pinkerton]

haha lemur owners are some sore losers.

[funk5]

It would be a shame to see a small company doing quality products get put out of business. I'm all for the little guys but at that price it will be tough competition with the ipad and an app at 1/4th the price.

I think though that most people will be using the ipad to control Ableton Live with things like the new touchable app: touchable

There's another thread talking about this: the real Killer ipad app for Ableton calls TouchAble

[PeteJames]

Originally Posted by Spectral Climax

it will never be a Lemur because it wasn't designed as a music performance tool.

The Tb-303 wasn't designed to make acid...meh.

[Spectral Climax]

Originally Posted by kilon

I dont see why would Apple resist the opportunity to get more customers, that makes no sense whatsoever.

Apple is more likely to keep inovating than stop the evolution of ipad in any way.

What can i say...you have your opinion too and it's respectable. Time will tell...

[Spectral Climax]

Originally Posted by PeteJames

The Tb-303 wasn't designed to make acid...meh.

Very bad analogy...we comparing two different pieces of gear and how iPad could become a Lemur, not whether an iPad could or couldn't be the basic instrument of a music style in the future.

[spaceman]

Originally Posted by m127

In regards to your "damn expensive" price remark, that is due to the fact that the JM Lemurs are hand-assembled and manufactured at JM labs in Bordeaux, France, while the iPad are massively manufactured using state of the art precision super plants in China with little human chinese 1 USD/hour intervention... That is, they can produce thousands in one day. JM can produce maybe 10 to 20 in one day.

Why doesn't JM produce at least a few hundred per day? Because most humans who happen to be musicians don't have the brains to understand the difference between the iPad and the JM Lemur and they think they can do the same... thus the demand for the Lemur is in the 1 to 1 million ratio.
Furthermore, the Lemur does not have the United States gigantic propaganda machine behind it as opposed to the Jobs/Apple/Mass media the iPad has had.

Spot on .
We can't expect the Lemur to be competitive with the ipad , hardware-wise. However i think they can survive if they modify the hardware , lower the price a bit, and concentrate on a few aspects where they can have an edge to the iPad when it comes to live performance for example ( Lower latency ? Strike a deal with cycling74 and have a MAX version specifically tailored for the Lemur ? stuff like that)
They will always be a niche product , but that's okay. Lots of products are made for niche markets and do quite well.

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by m127

I own both; however I am very interested in taking a look at THE iPad app by which you can easily do object-oriented programming that I am sure you have seen? Let us know.

In regards to your "damn expensive" price remark, that is due to the fact that the JM Lemurs are hand-assembled and manufactured at JM labs in Bordeaux, France, while the iPad are massively manufactured using state of the art precision super plants in China with little human chinese 1 USD/hour intervention... That is, they can produce thousands in one day. JM can produce maybe 10 to 20 in one day.

Apple has XCode. Objective-C 2.0 is fully object oriented. You can program anything you'd like with it. There is absolutely no reason that those interfaces you cited can't be replicated.

JMs are expensive. Yea, they are made in a nice place, but that doesn't make the end product better. Just more expensive and you can feel better about buying it.

If anything, the #1 difference I see is that the JM has an ethernet port vs wireless. Yet, I don't see any reason that you can't get wireless working on-stage. There's plenty of wireless stuff (microphones, iems, etc) that is critical for live use, and works just fine for transmitting midi-esque commands.

[e6400ultra]

Originally Posted by pinkerton

haha lemur owners are some sore losers.

This.

[code 10]

Originally Posted by m127

Do you own a Lemur and an iPad? I am guessing no. You are just imagining that is the only important difference. You need to know them and have actual experience with both to know the differences, which obviously you don't.

I've never owned a Lemur, just used one in a shop, being totally straight with you here, I hated the thing, the whole concept sucked so hard and, the price of thing is totally ridiculous.

I've not got an iPad but, what I can see that is a huge bonus to the iPad is the price point and the fact that anyone can write an app for it. Are users able to write apps for the Lemur?

Personally, I think the Lemur is a dead end, well, unless they decide to go down a slightly different route than what they're on at the moment.






.

[pr0gr4m]

Well, I guess its too late for this minor, yet I feel important bit of logic, but can someone show me an Ipad doing the work of a Lemur?

I have neither of them.

Ipads can be very flexible tools, - as long as Apple says ok - and I don't doubt that there are some things that a Lemur can do that can also be done on an Ipad.

So, if we are asking "why Lemur when there's Ipad?" the first question we need an answer to before we can answer the main one is "can one do everything on an Ipad that the Lemur can?". If the answer to that question is currently "No", then the answer to the main question is that the Lemur can do more things (for music) than the Ipad. Perhaps in time, the distance between the two will become more narrow.

Would this be the same type of question? Why Ferrari > Mustang? Perhaps changing the objects in the question to something ppl are more familiar with, they will have a better grasp of the question being asked.

[darthtrader]

Originally Posted by m127

The Lemur killer isn't the ipad...someone would need to program a modular control environment for it, that seems unlikely. the lemur killer is right there though kinda in that video...Nice PC touchscreen running a modern computer + reaktor, just touch metaphysical function directly. PC touch screens are just too expensive yet. Everything is basically there control element wise in reaktor right now though, even for those other videos.

[cixelsyd]

It wouldn't be gearslutz without threads like this.

[e6400ultra]

Originally Posted by darthtrader

The Lemur killer isn't the ipad...someone would need to program a modular control environment for it, that seems unlikely.

Something like this? iPhone / iPod Touch Max 5 external v1.3

[MonoBrow]

Its funny how a device becomes "the lemur killer" because it has a touchscreen.
The coding language and patches make the lemur what it is and it is still "the device" for its designed field.Maybe the ipad will get there but it will take years.

[Dysanfel]

The iPad can theoretically do everything the Lemur does. We all know there is a market for it. It is only a matter of time...

Considering the number of iPads that exist I give it less than 18 months.

[AcoosticZoo]

Apple's magic mouse has a touch interface. Not the same league and as fancy as the lemur of ipad/ipod touch, but It can also control any faders on Logic (except on the volume fader on the mixer - but there's a workaround). The surface of the mouse is a touch interface that can scroll up down and left right by moving your finger across the magic mouse. Yes it's not the same leaugue as an ipad or ipod touch, but instead of looking at you're ipad's screen you can get visual cues from computer screen, or better still close your eyes and just run your finger up and down the magic mouse. Works really well too.

Regards
Josef Horhay
Mixing Engineer
www.acoosticzoo.com

[londontown]

Once you start playing with the most detailed lemur patches talking to reaktor, you'll realize that there is nothing yet on the iPad that's even close in terms of OSC control of a remote sound design tool.

Lemurized graincube is out of this world.