Continuum or Eigenharp?

[littlefinger]

I have an opportunity to spend some grant money for an experimental electronic performance in 2011. I've had my eye on both the haken continuum and the eigenharp for some time. And now is my chance to leap!

I am using Max/MSP, Live and Kyma mainly. I know the full extent of what each can do, but am having a lot of difficulty deciding which one will be

a) functionally superior
b) visually superior
c) intriguing (I hope to get more grant $$ from the performance

thoughts?

[gbevin]

What kind of music are you playing? What kind of instruments do you already play?

From your post I get the impression that you look at them as controllers and that the visual appearance, the wow factor and the features are the most important things to compare. I have both an Eigenharp Alpha and a half-sized Haken Continuum, but decided to focus on the Eigenharp first. There's a real learning curve attached to both instruments and I've been playing other instruments for about 23 years. I think you need to realistically train for at least a year on the Eigenharp Alpha before being able to play something mildly impressive on stage. That is with daily technique and rhythmic training, and having played other instruments before so that your fingers are already strong, used to convey music and have a lot of dexterity in them. You'll spend a lot more time and effort on mastering the instrument than on the gathering the money for its purchase.

Both instruments will steer you into different directions, as they physically require you to interact differently. You'll most probably be playing more leads on the Continuum, while on the Eigenharp it could be anything. However, the portamento continuous glide-style playing of the Continuum is not really possible on the Eigenharp. You'll need to learn how to play without physical keys or strings on the Continuum and develop hand-ear coordination that allows you to adjust to continuously playing along three axis in real time. With the Eigenharp you'll have to spend a lot of time getting the 'feel' of its keys and physically feeling comfortable with the instrument. As an example, you'll probably spend a few weeks just finding out how to hold the Alpha comfortably, and then change it a few times again as it really depends on what you're playing.

With both instruments you'll have to spend a lot of time finding which sounds and setups work for you and constantly fine-tune them as your playing improves.

Now your questions:

* Is a guitar functionally superior over a piano? Is a bodhrán superior over a cajón? As long as you feel emotionally touched when playing the instrument, you'll do fine. Neither the Continuum or the Eigenharp are just 'button press controllers', you'll need to sink in and discover what makes them unique and how to make that your own. The digital aspect is very extensive on both instruments, with the Eigenharp providing more features and the Continuum being more mature and having a built-in DSP.

* Visually superior? Euhm, that's taste, not sure anybody can help you with that. I prefer the Eigenharp Alpha visually (I actually think it's drop dead gorgeous) but I've seen many people say online that they think it's horrible and wouldn't be caught dead playing it.

* I'd say the Eigenharp Alpha is more intriguing as it's a lot newer, less people know it and it can't be mistakenly confused for some kind of keyboard by people that are uninformed.

Hope this helps,

Geert

[rcb4t2]

Whoa, just saw the eigenharp for the first time..... whoa.......

[gbevin]

If you want to know more, read my review here:
Eigenharp Alpha review after three months | EigenZone

[thermos]

Sort of on topic, this is a cool take off of the continnuum.

MORPHWIZ - a versatile musical instrument for the iPad!

[gbevin]

I've been playing with MorphWiz, and while it's cool, it lacks the tactile experience of the Continuum. The silken surface that is pressure sensitive is very nice, the glass surface of the iPad not very much so. Also, even though the iPad is bigger than the iPhone, it's too small in size for me to play full blown pieces on.
MorphWiz first experiment - Tiridum on Vimeo

[thermos]

Originally Posted by gbevin

I've been playing with MorphWiz, and while it's cool, it lacks the tactile experience of the Continuum. The silken surface that is pressure sensitive is very nice, the glass surface of the iPad not very much so. Also, even though the iPad is bigger than the iPhone, it's too small in size for me to play full blown pieces on.
MorphWiz first experiment - Tiridum on Vimeo

Yeah, it will never be a full blown replacement for a pressure sensitive device. Still cool though.
You probably know about it already, but I still prefer Bebot Normalware.com - Bebot
to Morphwiz. Just throwing it out there if you aren't already aware of it.

[gbevin]

Yeah, Bebot is great, I actually like ThumbJam a lot ... eagerly awaiting an iPad version.

[thermos]

Originally Posted by gbevin

Yeah, Bebot is great, I actually like ThumbJam a lot ... eagerly awaiting an iPad version.

Yep, ThumbJam is cool. Here is another one rarely mentioned that is really cool, and getting better.

Sound Squares

I use all these apps live on my iPhone, but they are getting so cool it's making me want an iPad.

Edit: this is a way cooler video of soundsquares.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggJH5RJT_dA

[Teddy Ray]

Reactable

[rabbit friendly]

Interesting, I've been looking at the Eigenharp for a while now. Does anybody know if the Tau is shipping yet? I can't find any info on the Eigenharp site.

[gbevin]

When you click on customise/buy it says "Shipping from 13 August 2010". People have already received their pre-orders as I've seen some YouTube videos. I guess that Eigenlabs is basically catching up on the pre-orders. In a few months the Tau should be immediately available for shipping when you order, just as the Pico now.

[golden beers]

Originally Posted by rcb4t2

Whoa, just saw the eigenharp for the first time..... whoa.......

no, you've seen it before.

[rabbit friendly]

So George Lucas took all the pre-orders? Well, if its taken then 35 years to get new ones in stock maybe I'll just wait...

[asynchro_nous]

Ergonomically the Continuum looks light years ahead of the Eigenharp.

I think I'd almost be embarrassed to be seen with the Eigenharp -- it's a bit of a monstrosity.

[ignatius]

i've read that the eigenharp is fantastic BUT it is like learning a new instrument...

so, imagine you want to learn the guitar but have never picked one up.. that's kind of what you're in for if you go for an eigenharp.. that may be just the thing for some people though..

the continuom is kind of dependent on software.. it's highly integratable for software control since there is so much gestural information that can be transmitted.

i think you should find some place to demo them or at least talk to lot's of users who use them all the time and can give you their experiences and opinions.

[littlefinger]

Sounds easy - but there are only like 3 eigenharp users out there that don't work for the company

The Pico and the new eigenharp look ergonomically OK. The alpha is pretty big though.

[Nick Laho]

Originally Posted by asynchro_nous

Ergonomically the Continuum looks light years ahead of the Eigenharp.

I think I'd almost be embarrassed to be seen with the Eigenharp -- it's a bit of a monstrosity.

I thought the same thing.

[Beermaster]

Have to say that I have yet to see a anything from the countless Eigenharp you tube clips that shows any form of lyrical performance or 'musical' result. It is so annoying and damaging to Eigen's reputation to have an instrument that costs £5,000 ( almost as much a real instrument like a bassoon ! ) that supposedly has all the versatility of a real instrument in terms of performance nuances BUT fail to show it working ! - Worse still there are countless desperate clips of young demonstrators making drum riffs and playing bad electronica .... nothing new here and certainly not worth forking out 5K for the unwieldy tree-trunk !

There was a 'clarinet' demonstration on one clip that sounded like a rough soprano sax with all kinds of un-clarinet clams ! ( plus you can buy a bloody clarinet for 500 and make it sound like one in less time than it will take to get around the Eigenharp ! )

The also proudly tell us that they have a great 'Piano' sample set for the instrument

Why they ( Eigen ) could be so dumb as to pick the piano as an performance patch on an instrument intended to be unique and offering so much real time performance controls..... beggars belief ...... why would anyone want to attempt to use the eigenharp rather than a keyboard for a piano performance..... cos you can't use both hands on the EH' nor can you have the diversity of using one hand on the EH that you can on on a keyboard.... Worse still whilst the EH' has a stunning range of realtime performance controls for all kinds of varitaions of performance nuances.... the piano doesn't require much more than a fine velocity sensitivity .... so you're not really going need any of these fancy control options....


COme on Eigen.... show us a real musician PLAYING the harp and giving us a true musical perfomance.. make it using a single monophonic sound but show how diverse and expressive it can be as played by a musician... not a lab monkey as on your current videos !

Beer.

[cramseur]

Maybe just wait for the AirPiano controller.

[syzygywell]

I actually love the look of the eigenharp. The starwars cantina band resemblance not with standing. I play both guitar and keyboard. I've played clarinet and my mother was a violin and oboe player. I play synths more than I do guitar these days but I love the feel of standing up and having the instrument in my hand in that way the eigenharp really appeals to me. It reminds me of playing a chapman stick.

The appeal for me is that it is very high quality, beautifully built, and the keys are expressive like a guitar. I grant the oboe and bassoon aren't very butch but they are awesome instruments. I like the lights on the eigenharp as well, it seems like something new and also something ancient, like something peter gabriel would have had on his Passion album if it made its own sound.

Don't get me wrong I really like the Haken. They are both really stellar controllers. But actually for the unique and visual my vote goes to the eigenharp.

I didn't think this was half bad.. and barnone is a good guy to talk to about his findings.. he said their was a lot of latency with kyma initially but updated have fixed a lot of that he also work with max/msp a lot.
http://vimeo.com/8644421

[littlefinger]

Beer, I am so there with you. I am intrigued by the EH, but I have to say the company isn't doing their media and marketing right. It baffles me how a company could build such an innovative controller just to feature instruments like a rhodes, piano and wurli. C'mon! Is that all it can do? Has Eigen even been listening to music for the past 20 years? It's almost like George Lucas did build the EH and packed it with all of his favorite bands' instruments from 1977. This thing needs to conjure images of sound melding with space in a vortex of cheese doodle zappa meets autechre in a rubber vacuum cleaner.

But all things considered, it is a new instrument, so it takes time to learn. Watching people play electronic drums on it is like listening to car tire with a loose nut wobbling around. Seeing all the clips of Eigen employees playing the 007 theme does not help move units either - I'm sure of it. So please Eigen, please use your "micron" keys to give us some inspiring demos of what this thing can really do.

[gbevin]

Originally Posted by asynchro_nous

Ergonomically the Continuum looks light years ahead of the Eigenharp.

I think I'd almost be embarrassed to be seen with the Eigenharp -- it's a bit of a monstrosity.

Sounds to me you're confusing ergonomics and esthetics as if one is related to the other. Anyway, I think the Alpha is one of the most beautiful instruments ever made, so does my wife, my kids, my band mates and all other people that have seen it. This is however very personal and not really worth discussing about.

Ergonomically though, the Eigenharp is actually vastly superior. It starts with your hands not having to be horizontal. Having suffered from carpal tunnel syndrome before, the Continuum noticably puts stress on my wrists, arms and shoulders. The continuous pressure in various different directions, combined with the friction of the surface actually feels quite dramatic to me. I fear that I can't play it for long periods of time.

The Eigenharp however nicely puts your hands in a horizontal positions with no noticeable stress anywhere, except maybe a tiny little bit in your right shoulder as you have to extend your right arm further. The latter seems to be a muscular issue though, as I've stopped feeling it for the past few weeks. You can play the Eigenharp Alpha as you like and with the variety of possible positions, you're sure to find one that suits you, I keep coming up with new ones weekly. The keys on the Eigenharp require so little pressure that it's actually disconcerting at first. Ergonomically, these keys are the best I've ever dealt with. You also have to exert no pressure whatshowever between your thumb and fingers (as with a guitar). Having suffered from tendonitis due to exactly that while playing the guitar, this is very relieving for me.

[zerocrossing]

Well, one's obviously best for bluegrass, the other mostly for trance.

[gbevin]

Originally Posted by littlefinger

Beer, I am so there with you. I am intrigued by the EH, but I have to say the company isn't doing their media and marketing right. It baffles me how a company could build such an innovative controller just to feature instruments like a rhodes, piano and wurli. C'mon! Is that all it can do? Has Eigen even been listening to music for the past 20 years? It's almost like George Lucas did build the EH and packed it with all of his favorite bands' instruments from 1977. This thing needs to conjure images of sound melding with space in a vortex of cheese doodle zappa meets autechre in a rubber vacuum cleaner.

When I got my Eigenharp initially, I was thinking the same thing. I felt they should have providing more sounds that were 'special' for the Eigenharp. They do include a player version of Alchemy though, that sounds very nice and has a vast range of patches.

Now, I think that Eigenlabs did the right choice by including traditional sounds for their sampler engine. The keys and other controllers take a lot of dedication to get proficient with. If they would by default be hooked into sounds that are set up for full expressiveness, a lot of people would be put off by it. You'll be constantly pitch bending and cutting off filters and resonance like crazy. All these observations are in reality moot though, since you can use any sound font, AU or VST instrument or effect ... and map those as you like. This is quite personal and takes some effort to get right for your playing style. It is also going to be extremely different for every musician. The current players already play in an incredible amount of different styles, everyone has their own expectations, no default sound will be right across the spectrum. I personally actually enjoy playing the piano on the Eigenharp a lot as I've never felt comfortable with the keys of a traditional keyboard. Even though I'm not using a the yaw and roll axis of the Eigenharp keys when playing piano, I feel I'm more expressive than I've ever been on the piano. In any case it suits me better.

Originally Posted by littlefinger

But all things considered, it is a new instrument, so it takes time to learn. Watching people play electronic drums on it is like listening to car tire with a loose nut wobbling around. Seeing all the clips of Eigen employees playing the 007 theme does not help move units either - I'm sure of it. So please Eigen, please use your "micron" keys to give us some inspiring demos of what this thing can really do.

As you say, that's something that time will most probably solve. It takes years to learn to play a new instrument, certainly if you're judged by the critical ears of the internet ;-)

Also bear in mind that there are no teachers nor formal technique, so it's not only a matter of building up your dexterity and muscle memory, it's also a matter of actually discovering what works and what doesn't. The more I actually play on the Alpha, the more I think it'll be a while before I want to put another video online. The Pico is another story though, it's quite easy to pick up and be expressive with because you basically don't have to move your hands. They can stay fixed in the same position and your fingers can reach all the keys. I'm personally very happy with the results I achieved with the Pico in just a few weeks. The comments on my YouTube videos seem to confirm that.

[gbevin]

Originally Posted by Beermaster

The also proudly tell us that they have a great 'Piano' sample set for the instrument

So? It is actually really a great expressive piano and I'm extremely happy with it.

Originally Posted by Beermaster

Why they ( Eigen ) could be so dumb as to pick the piano as an performance patch on an instrument intended to be unique and offering so much real time performance controls..... beggars belief ...... why would anyone want to attempt to use the eigenharp rather than a keyboard for a piano performance..... cos you can't use both hands on the EH' nor can you have the diversity of using one hand on the EH that you can on on a keyboard....

What are you talking about, I constantly play both hands on the Eigenharp and can reach dual chords that are almost impossible to play on a regular keyboard, get your facts straight.

What do you mean by not having the diversity of using one hand as on a regular keyboard. You can split the Alpha's surface any way imaginable and control what you're playing on one part of the split by what you do on the other part. If you don't want to go that route, just generate MIDI CC from some keys yaw, roll and pressure and no notes, use that to control the other part.

Originally Posted by Beermaster

Worse still whilst the EH' has a stunning range of realtime performance controls for all kinds of varitaions of performance nuances.... the piano doesn't require much more than a fine velocity sensitivity .... so you're not really going need any of these fancy control options....

Exactly, which is what makes it perfect for exploring the instrument as a beginner. Getting used to the physical layout and the different velocity is quite enough to deal with initially. Having two other axis of extremely sensitive control on every single key thrown at you when you first practice on it would bear enough frustration to be instantly discouraged.

Originally Posted by Beermaster

COme on Eigen.... show us a real musician PLAYING the harp and giving us a true musical perfomance.. make it using a single monophonic sound but show how diverse and expressive it can be as played by a musician... not a lab monkey as on your current videos !

Patience is a virtue, let us practice and stop making up stuff about the Eigenharp.

[gbevin]

Originally Posted by littlefinger

Sounds easy - but there are only like 3 eigenharp users out there that don't work for the company

Hah, you can actually start to find Eigenharps in stores, there's only one store in the whole world with the Continuum. I had a very hard time trying to find a Continuum to try out before buying and I'm traveling quite a lot. There were some Continuum players in San Francisco that Lippold was trying to get me in touch with, but none was present when I was in the US. I could have driven to Germany though instead.

For the Eigenharp, I just called up Eigenlabs, went to London and tried them out. Easier for me than going to Germany.

Trying them out is currently about as difficult for both of them but it's going to become a lot easier for the Eigenharp as they're getting them in more and more retail stores.

There must be a few thousand Eigenharp players now and I estimate 40 or 50 Eigenharp Alpha players! Not seeing them on YouTube doesn't mean that they don't exist. A lot of musicians just play and don't bother with splattering themselves all over the web ;-)

[gbevin]

Originally Posted by syzygywell

I didn't think this was half bad.. and barnone is a good guy to talk to about his findings.. he said their was a lot of latency with kyma initially but updated have fixed a lot of that he also work with max/msp a lot.
http://vimeo.com/8644421

That video is me actually ;-)

Barnone is doing a lot of great stuff also though, definitely check out what he's been posting.

I actually put this up not to demo to the world (would have using YouTube otherwise) but to show what I was working on to others on the Vimeo Eigenharp group. I'm thinking of doing others but making them more private, I personally don't consider this performance up to par at all ... then again, that little tune is something I came up with just an hour before, tweeted about and the others wanted to hear what I was doing with the percussion keys.

[MikeMilton]

Well, I personally dialog with 4 other EHA players and know of a few more. We are a community that is growing quickly.

It has a broad suite of capabilities but they are not all suited to (or needed for) all uses. Using them all for effect/show/demo is probably done at the expense of musicality. However, how else would one communicate it's capabilities? I suspect this is a dilemma both for the company and some players. Personally, I just play what I like.

When I first looked at the EH, I expected a controller; something to be attached as an input device to my existing set up. It certainly can interface that way but, in fact, it is a complete standalone system/instrument. It quickly became the core / hub of my set up. Some people I've shown it to do not like this.

Of all the instruments I've ever approached, this one was the easiest to get started with; partly because it can be simplified and partly because it is well thought out. It is also open to being learned.

[Beermaster]

Originally Posted by gbevin

What are you talking about, I constantly play both hands on the Eigenharp and can reach dual chords that are almost impossible to play on a regular keyboard, get your facts straight.

What do you mean by not having the diversity of using one hand as on a regular keyboard.

Well here are the facts gbevin:

The EH was designed to be played either upright like a bassoon or to the side like the guitar. The limitations of both of these types of instruments are the uses of the thumbs. Because both of these playing positions requires the hands to come around a neck or fingerboard the fingers are free to go where they want but the thumbs have little of no use compared to the fingers ( thus on woodwind instruments the thumbs operate simple switches or nothing at all and on the guitar very limited use ) Ask any pianist to play without using his thumbs and you have an extreme problem.

With only one hand on the piano keyboard the position of the arms and hands is totally natural and relaxed allowing the thumbs and fingers to pass over each other and for the fastest lines to be played and even for parallel runs with one hand... Not possible without a hand position that allows the thumbs to move freely.

I guess you could lay the EH on the horizontal but fingerboard is all at one end and this would also totally defeat the object of the EH design.

I think the Eigen harp is potentially the most powerful and expressive controller/instrument available today but what frustrates me is seeing them focus on piano and keyboard sounds which ultimately make it out to be a replacement or alternative to the western keyboard which it certainly is not and should never be. It's true potential is as an expressive alternative to any type of melodic performance but Eigen have yet to show this in their clips... they tend to go for tacky side show thrills such as drum rhythms and sequenced riffs all of which cheapen the image of this amazing instrument and hide it's true purpose as a real solo instrument.

At the moment It's trying to be too many things and hasn't shown it self to be a master of any.

Eigen need to re-think their whole marketing campaign to show the EH as perfect and serious as a new Buffet Clarinet or a new Selmer sax built with precision for professionals and not the bontempi home organ approach... built with auto-accompaniment aimed at amateurs for cheap thrills.

Beer.