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Please help- major problem with my mix re undesirable affect of filter on my output..
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#31
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
  #31
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Here's some pics of what Simplon does to the signal, with input and output at neutral. The Simplon engaged is filter 2 switched on with a 'Fabfilter One' HP, fully open @ 5hz, no resonance, and a slope of 12db/octave.

The first two pics are @ 44.1k, the last two @ 96k.
Attached Thumbnails
Please help- major problem with my mix re undesirable affect of filter on my output..-100hz-sine-44.1k.jpg   Please help- major problem with my mix re undesirable affect of filter on my output..-100hz-sine-44.1k-ff.jpg   Please help- major problem with my mix re undesirable affect of filter on my output..-100hz-sine-96k.jpg   Please help- major problem with my mix re undesirable affect of filter on my output..-100hz-sine-96k-ff.jpg  
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#32
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
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Here's the same @ 96k with a FF Pro-Q 6db/octave HP at 10hz.
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Please help- major problem with my mix re undesirable affect of filter on my output..-100hz-sine-96k-proq.jpg  
#33
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
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For a man who uses the word science a lot in his posts you sure dont know a lot of it *grins*

The increase in level is simple.

You are hipassing , therefore you are phase shifting the increase in level is purely a result of the phase shifting.

The reason why your waveforms change shape is because by hipassing them you ARE CHANGING THEM.

Therefore they will change to reflect those changes.

Pretty simple really.

It will happen to ANY waveform.

Nothing is broken , nothing is wrong its just a simple fundamental (no pun intended..... honest) fact of life.

Think about it.... A complex waveform is the sum of the fundamental freq and all of its associated harmonics, by hipassing you will be removing some of the fundamental. The scope is simply reflecting that change.

Remember also that although you may be setting the filter at 4hz or whatever thats its -3dB point. It will start hipassing much higher up than that and as you are filtering extreme low end ..... Do I need to continue.

Yoozer said you are probably over thinking this , the problem is you arent

You are missing some fundamental understanding of how waveforms are constructed and how filters work. If you low pass a complex waveform enough you reduce it back to a sine wave you are doing the opposite.

If you think about it a bit it all makes sense..

Sometimes its better to stop worrying about why's and wherefores and just make music at the end of the day no one is going to judge or otherwise value your song any differently because of a few hz difference in the bottom end that no one is ever going to hear let alone car about.

I would reccomend that out side of a classroom or engineering workshop oscilliscopes are of very little use.

Let your ears be the final judge.

Scopes are very good at making people go down completely the wrong direction just look at the thread on compressor analysis. Thats a whole heap of nullshit right there.

YMMV/Enjoy etc etc yadda yadda.

Gareth
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#34
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gfx View Post
For a man who uses the word science a lot in his posts you sure dont know a lot of it *grins*

The increase in level is simple.

You are hipassing , therefore you are phase shifting the increase in level is purely a result of the phase shifting.

The reason why your waveforms change shape is because by hipassing them you ARE CHANGING THEM.

Therefore they will change to reflect those changes.

Pretty simple really.

It will happen to ANY waveform.

Nothing is broken , nothing is wrong its just a simple fundamental (no pun intended..... honest) fact of life.

Think about it.... A complex waveform is the sum of the fundamental freq and all of its associated harmonics, by hipassing you will be removing some of the fundamental. The scope is simply reflecting that change.

Remember also that although you may be setting the filter at 4hz or whatever thats its -3dB point. It will start hipassing much higher up than that and as you are filtering extreme low end ..... Do I need to continue.

Yoozer said you are probably over thinking this , the problem is you arent

You are missing some fundamental understanding of how waveforms are constructed and how filters work. If you low pass a complex waveform enough you reduce it back to a sine wave you are doing the opposite.

If you think about it a bit it all makes sense..

Sometimes its better to stop worrying about why's and wherefores and just make music at the end of the day no one is going to judge or otherwise value your song any differently because of a few hz difference in the bottom end that no one is ever going to hear let alone car about.

I would reccomend that out side of a classroom or engineering workshop oscilliscopes are of very little use.

Let your ears be the final judge.

Scopes are very good at making people go down completely the wrong direction just look at the thread on compressor analysis. Thats a whole heap of nullshit right there.

YMMV/Enjoy etc etc yadda yadda.

Gareth
I don't understand. Did you actually read this thread before you came in shouting your mouth off?

What have I said that has offended you & why are you being so rude to me?


I fully realised what was causing the issue.... from my OP;

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonator View Post
I can appreciate WHY this is happening; even when set below 5Hz I can see that a filter will have a knock-on affect to surrounding frequencies.
The thread was just asking if anyone had any suggestions about how I can minimise this issue... which they did have, and we satisfactorily resolved the issue.

I never claimed anything was 'broken' as you state. I did say I found it a 'problem', which to me it was. The problem is now solved.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gfx View Post
Sometimes its better to stop worrying about why's and wherefores and just make music at the end of the day no one is going to judge or otherwise value your song any differently because of a few hz difference in the bottom end that no one is ever going to hear let alone car about.
It seems you've TOTALLY misunderstood what this thread was even about.

The issue was with losing amplitude headroom due to an offset & amplitude spikes... nothing to do with trying to get 'a few extra hertz'.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gfx View Post
I would reccomend that out side of a classroom or engineering workshop oscilliscopes are of very little use.

Scopes are very good at making people go down completely the wrong direction just look at the thread on compressor analysis. Thats a whole heap of nullshit right there.
This is just wrong.

If I find oscilloscopes of use, they are useful.

Purely down to the oscilloscope I spotted this issue & was able to resolve it.



Lots of people came in and gave really useful advice, and we found a way to minimise the issue I was facing.

I never claimed to know everything. I came here asking for help.


Why is it only you have jumped in with this attitude?

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This is the reason I don't hang out with people much....I generally don't like people...and this is exactly why... Simonator is the exact reason why
... Yeah! So don't mess with the Simonator!!! Grrrr
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#35
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gfx View Post
Gareth
Wow... I just realised you are a representative of FXpansion...

And you are going around music tech forums trolling people. That's pretty smooth.

Great products btw... I'm one of your biggest advocates here & constantly encouraging people give you their business.
#36
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
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Dude ,

I was taking the piss a bit come on stop being so senstitive.

I used as many *grins* and as a could to help convey the light hearted nature of my 'digs'

You didnt offend me I simply thought id attempt to explain exactly what was going on with your problem having read the thread I didnt see anywhere where this had been done , maybe I missed the post!

No wonder everyone of any worth has left Gearslutz to go where the adults are.

I dont post very often on GS.

Is it any wonder why.

l8s!

Gareth
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#37
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gfx View Post
No wonder everyone of any worth has left Gearslutz to go where the adults are.

My favorite software developer openly being rude to me & everyone in this forum without any provocation.

Nice.
#38
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
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The only person I am representing here is myself.

I am not 'trolling' I tried to help.

Seemingly I failed.

What can I say.

Gareth
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#39
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
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Weird... did you just remove the FXpansion bit from your username?

I didn't even realise it was POSSIBLE to change your username.
#40
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
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Yes I did,

Simple reason really , I am not wanting any confusion to happen.

Its an option in the user panel.

IF you think im being an arse fair enough I am not gonna bother to try to make you think otherwise.

I have no problem with people thinking whatever the heck they like.

I do have a problem with people trying to manipulate the situation and bring my professional life into the discussion when its irrelevant to the case in point.

And before you say I am hiding I have left my email address alone.

I am not hiding anything lots of people in this forum know very well whom I am and have done for many years.

Gareth
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#41
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGreen View Post
Yes I did,

Its an option in the user panel.
Awesome... that's great to know.

Thanks for all your help.

#42
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGreen View Post
I do have a problem with people trying to manipulate the situation and bring my professional life into the discussion when its irrelevant to the case in point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGreen View Post
For a man who uses the word science a lot in his posts you sure dont know a lot of it *grins*

...

Yoozer said you are probably over thinking this , the problem is you arent
I don't know man, these remarks seem pretty condescending and needlessly aggressive.

I mean, I can write, "your mother smells like a goat and you should go **** yourself. " The smiley does little to soften the underlying hostility and isn't a free pass to just run one's mouth off insulting people. Especially when it comes at the tail end of a thread that has already been resolved. Even if this wasn't your intent, sarcasm doesn't always translate so well on forums so... better to play it safe?

I appreciate you're not here officially representing FXpansion, but unfortunately most people aren't going to see it that way -you always represent your company, at least by association.

Just sayin'. I mean all this in the friendliest way possible.

EDIT: Maybe people ARE overly sensitive here. I dunno, it just seems like an awful lot of threads culminate in some kind of bickering. Can't we all just get along? A lot of this stuff seems to boil down to a matter of basic internet etiquette.
#43
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
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What can I say,

Nothing seemingly.

So I wont.

Your usual scheduled programming will now continue.



Gareth
#44
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGreen View Post
What can I say,

Nothing seemingly.

So I wont.

Your usual scheduled programming will now continue.



Gareth
I didn't mean to single you out that way, but I guess I did. Sorry for that. Wasn't trying to add fuel to the fire so to speak.

Anyway, as you said, scheduled programming will now continue. thumbsup
#45
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
  #45
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I don't know, perhaps I've got a thicker skin, but I wouldn't consider GGreen's reply condescending or agressive at all. Lord knows y'all would go down far harder on any clueless newbie thinking he can buy a plugin that'll write him a hit and get him laid .

What I meant to say with the overthinking was simple - why so serious? It looks to me like splitting hairs. If the front of the kick offends you - why not simply cut it off? That's what resampling was invented for.
#46
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post
I don't know, perhaps I've got a thicker skin, but I wouldn't consider GGreen's reply condescending or agressive at all. Lord knows y'all would go down far harder on any clueless newbie thinking he can buy a plugin that'll write him a hit and get him laid .
Yeah, fair enough. I was just thinking out loud really.
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#47
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post
What I meant to say with the overthinking was simple - why so serious? It looks to me like splitting hairs. If the front of the kick offends you - why not simply cut it off? That's what resampling was invented for.
Well I already kind of had resampled the kick...

Initially the sample's attack was quieter than the midway point in the sample... essentially it originally looked VERY much like it does in the oscilloscope jpeg after going through Simplon... like a football.

I sliced the wave at EVERY zero crossing in the first half of the sample, then raised each slice's amplitude up until they were all level for optimal power.

After messing around doing that I came into my project only to have Simplon revert the shape to how it was.

The kick is the loudest element in my track, I don't want it to have any +/- amplitude offset about its zero crossing, and I don't want a momentary spike in it... these are making the sample up to 1dB less loud than it otherwise could be.

Some people might not give a damn about that, but I'm trying to pay attention to detail in my production & make it as good as it can be.
#48
6th July 2010
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Simonator or 'Fancy Pants' (did you just change your name, have I been hacked, or am I hallucinating?), this seems interesting... and the kick really works for your track but I don't necessarily think volume is really everything to a kick's impact. Kicks that I think work well also have an impact that I think is lost with too much of this kind of processing... the transient part is really important, and depending on where its got to sit in the frequency spectrum I like my kicks to drop in pitch and volume gently in relation to the tails of other sounds and the overall groove. Of course, in your mix I think it sounds pretty good, I'm just not sure as to whether it's best practice for other tracks. Though I must give this an experiment.
#49
6th July 2010
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oh to answer a question that i don't think has been answered.?

why does simplon affect the wave when it is set to have zero effect.

i'm guessing because it is 'analogue modelled'. they would have an algorithm in there doing things to the audio even when the filter is fully open i guess. i guess they're emulating a non-bypassed but fully open analogue filter. which will change the wave a tad. it's probably just added noise. that's what most 'analogue' buttons do in soft eq's, you press the button to give 'analogue warmth' but all you’re doing is adding noise.
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#50
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
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Simonator, I will never, ever feel comfortable calling you "FancyPants." Sorry.
#51
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers View Post
oh to answer a question that i don't think has been answered.?

why does simplon affect the wave when it is set to have zero effect.

i'm guessing because it is 'analogue modelled'. they would have an algorithm in there doing things to the audio even when the filter is fully open i guess. i guess they're emulating a non-bypassed but fully open analogue filter. which will change the wave a tad. it's probably just added noise. that's what most 'analogue' buttons do in soft eq's, you press the button to give 'analogue warmth' but all you’re doing is adding noise.

So i made all those purdy pictures for nothing?
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#52
6th July 2010
Old 6th July 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarkovsky View Post
Simonator or 'Fancy Pants' (did you just change your name, have I been hacked, or am I hallucinating?), this seems interesting... and the kick really works for your track but I don't necessarily think volume is really everything to a kick's impact. Kicks that I think work well also have an impact that I think is lost with too much of this kind of processing... the transient part is really important, and depending on where its got to sit in the frequency spectrum I like my kicks to drop in pitch and volume gently in relation to the tails of other sounds and the overall groove. Of course, in your mix I think it sounds pretty good, I'm just not sure as to whether it's best practice for other tracks. Though I must give this an experiment.
I hear what you are saying, and I know it might look a bit extreme... but factor in the fact that this kick is actually relatively very short.
Just think of this as though it was a bit of 'hold' on an AHDSR envelope.

Or think of it like a limiter... only really clean, 100% effective, and not interfering with the bass wavelength in anyway at all.

Great technique I got from XAXAU & Golden Beers.


EDIT:

Look at the waveform in the oscilloscope



What you are seeing there is two kicks, 1 beat apart, with the sub in the middle... so if you look at how long that kick is in relation to one beat, you'll notice it is quite short.


Also... re something else you were saying... yep, pitch drop kicks are great some times... but seeing as I wanted this to be a short tight kick, I had to go with a kick that was subby from the outset in order to get some weight into the track.

PPS... I do sometimes prefer to have a fixed pitch kick also for the fact it sits as a harmonic part of the track.
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