ok, layering a sub tone on a punchy kick

[Ged]

Hi dudes,

I've searched already on this - but most people go overboard on how to do this effectively

simply, What , in the DAW world, is the easiest way to layer say a 40HZ sub tone to a drum machine kick (OB DX)???

I know thers an easy way to do this but would like your input on this as you guys are waaayyy ahead of me on sound design.

I use soundforge and Cubase SX.

thanks in advance.

[Tarkovsky]

Use a sine wave with a gate sidechained/keyed to the kick drum. Be careful with the attack and decay settings.

[patrickg]

Hmmmm....

Well, I have been using Ableton's Drum Rack recently, and putting together a couple kicks and sub tones, then triggering them all simultaneously.

The reason I like this tool, is because the tone, punch, and feel of a kick depend drastically on the attack and start time of each sample, which I can eff with in drum rack. Then, I eq, and change the levels until I have something for my taste.

But to be simple, I would put my drum machine kick out on the arrange window, and put a sub tone there too, then bounce em together.

If you're talking about the drum machine 'playing' the subtone wherever you program the kick, I would load up battery or other drum software, and have the drum machine playing, while sending midi out simultaneously.

As long as you tweak your settings, should work out.

[dub3000]

get this: REAPER | ReaPlugs

load the reaJS vst. you might need to tweak the reajs.ini path parameters, read reajs_info.txt.

look for the tonegate plugin. adds sine/filtered square/noise with pitch envelope to drum tracks.

[Ged]

thanks guys - its like this - I want to use my DX kick sample but want to use a 40HZ tone to beef it up - i really want to keep it simple though - im pretty sure Daft Punk/Justice to name a few are doing this all over their early stuff.

[patrickg]

Originally Posted by Ged

thanks guys - its like this - I want to use my DX kick sample but want to use a 40HZ tone to beef it up - i really want to keep it simple though - im pretty sure Daft Punk/Justice to name a few are doing this all over their early stuff.

Yah, thats a very good thing to do; record the kick; record the subtone. Send them to the same bus, make a new track whose input is that bus, and press record.

For sub, I use a folder of 808 samples I have that I particularly like. I often low pass it, if I don't need anything but the sub. Here:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6230889/TR-808.zip

Luckily, it was already in my public folder.

[Ged]

Ok, heres my test mix >>ATTACK

Im thinking of replacing the kick with a DX Kick with the said sub tone

what do you think?

[networkacid]

I'd do it in an audio editor with a sinewave sample and a kick sample and create a new sample from the output, rather than try to do triggering live. You need to check the phase alignment of the two samples otherwise you may get phase cancellation which will have the opposite to the desired effect.

Another way to do it without screwing around with software is to put the kick output through a resonant HPF, crank the resonance into self oscillation and then tune the cutoff to the desired frequency. I used to do that internally on the Machinedrum to get beefier kicks and snares.

[alphaproject]

I've always used programs like Cubase subbass add in or Waves MAXXBASS and it makes the kick sound insane.

Obviously you can also add this stuff to instruments and really go wild, but it can get out of control if you don't watch it.

There are many ways I bet to get good low end to kick drums.....

Mine is one way, then there are others....

I have a 20hz and 40hz wave sample....I don't even know where I got it, but I could layer that in there too. I usually don't though, but maybe I should try.

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by alphaproject

I've always used programs like Cubase subbass add in or Waves MAXXBASS and it makes the kick sound insane.

Obviously you can also add this stuff to instruments and really go wild, but it can get out of control if you don't watch it.

There are many ways I bet to get good low end to kick drums.....

Mine is one way, then there are others....

I have a 20hz and 40hz wave sample....I don't even know where I got it, but I could layer that in there too. I usually don't though, but maybe I should try.

Just to let you know, I don't think that Maxxbass (or renaissance bass) will add 'sub tone' as the OP asks for... these plugs add HIGHER harmonics to whatever you put through them.
The main intention is to create the illusion of sub bass on speakers that do not go that low... cheap hi-fi/television.

I personally find that this is not terribly useful for the topic being discussed here... as it does not actually create any weighty sub bass... just fakes it using the missing fundamental principal
Missing fundamental - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Plugs that do add sub include 'Lowender', Logic 'Sub bass'.

Personally I prefer just to play in some low sine notes. Rob Papen's Albino is my weapon of choice... but most synths will work fine.

[lhama]

get mda subsynth:
mda SubSynth

[Karloff70]

Source some nice sounding sine wave and do what Tarkowsky said. Done deal.

[alphaproject]

Well, I add it to only low frew sounds to start with and it seems to do just fine, maybe I am missing the point, so I included an example of a song I just finished.

I used Maxbass in this song..... and I used a 40hz sound wave near the end with a PSP compressor enhancer.

I'm sure you'll hear some low end in this piece.

Maybe I'm missing the point....I don't know..... I just use what works for me.

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by alphaproject

Well, I add it to only low frew sounds to start with and it seems to do just fine, maybe I am missing the point, so I included an example of a song I just finished.

I used Maxbass in this song..... and I used a 40hz sound wave near the end with a PSP compressor enhancer.

I'm sure you'll hear some low end in this piece.

Maybe I'm missing the point....I don't know..... I just use what works for me.

Nice work! Very scary stuff. Fantastic open sound you've created there. Epic, cinematic.
thumbsup

The difference seems to be that you are starting with a very deep sub ('40hz sound wave'), then using Maxxbass to add higher harmonics... which makes it more audible & the bass APPEAR to be deeper & heavier.

The OP seems to be starting with a higher sound, then wanting to add lower frequencies underneath that... effectively the reverse of what you've done, and I believe that's something that Maxxbass isn't designed to do.

[mike vee]

just have them play together???

i usually start to mix without the subkick...and i try to get the clicky kick to sit right first, on its own....then i bring up the sub kick veryyy slowly until i can barely hear it...done.

[XAXAU]

Don´t layer in the beginning of the bassdrum where the pitchdrop is, that part needs ALL the headroom. Filter out the subs in the "top" layer.

Engage "snap to zero crossing" and cut up the beginning of the sample (at every zero crossing) where the punch is. Normalize to -0,1dBFS.

Blend. Don´t compress unless you really have to. You´ll **** up the subs and add intersample peaks for no reason. Let the mixbuss limiter do that for you.

[The Architecture]

this is why i use a 909 and 808. Maybe its the expensive route, but it sounds good everytime with minimal work!

[Tarkovsky]

It's really much easier to use a better kick sample.

You have to really understand kick drums to layer. Know where their individual click, punch and sub is in terms of frequencies and time.

If you really want to keep the original drums sound, maybe try removing everything below 300hz and put a new kick under there lpf at 300.

[fila7]

Second that. If you layer kick samples getting the transients to work together and bass/sub energy from each to match can be a real pain. I get easily bored listening through hundreds of samples too.

It's easier to synthesize your own sub-kick. I start with a low pitch sine OSC, instant maximum decay on ADSR, LFO set to drop the pitch fast, resonance as a booster with cut-off fairly low.

[alphaproject]

Originally Posted by simonator

Nice work! Very scary stuff. Fantastic open sound you've created there. Epic, cinematic.
thumbsup

Thanks... Listening to it again....I'm kinda surprised on how well that piece turned out to be honest. It was a song I had stopped working on for a long time simply because I had forgotten about it. I gathered some new sounds...and the end part kinda came to me, then after I thought I was done, went back and added the intro walking sound FX.... And the end was changed up to what you hear now with the low bass because of this thread but I'm glad I did it. I also had no drums near the end until the last stage because I felt it was getting boring and it didn't take away from the emotion meanwhile adding more buildup to the very end.

[Muser]

I'd try the test tone and Gate approach.

use a test tone generator plug-in, then you can tune it. also put in a sample delay unit so you can shift the sub later, away from the kick.

The same side chain source can then also be used to dip the Bass or what ever else. if you use sample layering it can be much more difficult to get right. try delaying one of the sample layers for instance. it depends on the sampler.
you also don't get the slight in-variance's of the Gate triggering with many other methods.

creating a whole new sample is long winded - hit and miss and you have no subsequent control at all.

[W-W-Int]

lots of input so far and i'm gonna try and step in and narrow down the major approaches and clarify a bit...

method 1. use auto software to add low freuencies to a track. pretty much simplest method yet can have the least control over the resultant kick sound. if you have the software laying around however already just try it and see if it's what you want as it will be the quickest method.


method 2. use a gate / compressor or seperate sampler etc to simultaneously add in a tuned sine wave. this method can work well if you get your start point, attack and fade on the sine wave just right. this would be the 2nd easiest and if you don't have some software that adds sub bass to exisiting material already laying around probably cheaper.


method 3. use an audio editor to take your existing kick drum sample and layer/mix a sine wave with it to create a second sample you can load into your sampler and just trigger as a normal kick later on. this method will be the best as far as quality of result and in future the shortest easiest to implement. in the near term it's defintely the hardest to do ...

you need to play with the attack envelope and where the sine wave starts in relation to your regular kick sound as far as where along the kick sample the attack starts to ramp up and the decay time for the sine wave. these are the important things to realize and no matter which method you use these are the settings you need to adjust till it's what you want.


things to watch out for when doing this. where eactly to start playing the sine wave will be critical to how the kick sounds. too soon or too late and it may drown out or kill some of the kick drum's attack transient making it sound weak or flat. too short and it won't carry enough weight under hte kick sound. too long and it will destroy the snappiness of the kick sound.

also the phase of the sine wave is important, if it's out of phase it will just make the kick sample sound quieter so if that happens flip the phase (start the sine ramping up if it ramps down or ramp it down instead of up at the start).



also also retrigger the sine every time the kick fires off exactly the same over and over. do not simply place a long 40 hz sine wave on a new track that lasts through the song and envelope it using automation or a gate/ compressor. it needs to have the same start position and phase in relation to your kick sample every time or some kick hits will sound weak due to shifting phase relationships between the kick sample and sine.

[DAH]

Originally Posted by W-W-Int

also also retrigger the sine every time the kick fires off exactly the same over and over. do not simply place a long 40 hz sine wave on a new track that lasts through the song and envelope it using automation or a gate/ compressor. it needs to have the same start position and phase in relation to your kick sample every time or some kick hits will sound weak due to shifting phase relationships between the kick sample and sine.

That +100 which means u better off laying a sine sample to assure phase consistency (especially in case of very low sines). I am sure Rod Hui could explain all this technique brilliantly judging by what he did on Public Enemy and Pete Rock records...