Netlabels the future of electronic music?

[aligak]

I used to have a not-so favorable opinion of netlabels, but that was more due to ignorance. I simply thought most of the releases on netlabels are inferior and that anything great would be on a "real" label. However, I have come across some great music recently on some netlabels. I have found some of the more daring, experimental, and not so polished sounding dance music on netlabels recently. I sometimes find myself browsing Beatport, for example, only able to find maybe 1 in 50 songs I want to buy as so much of the dance music establishment sounds the same, and with the same expensive sounding polished production.

What do you guys think of netlabels? Do you think they are the future of electronic / dance music or do you think they have already passed their peak a few years back? Do DJ's, especially well known ones, actually look for and play music they find for free on netlabels?

Finally, are netlabels a good way for non-established producers to get a start? I'm not so sure. I have seen some really crappy looking netlabel websites and some that look great. I don't care about making money at this point as I already have a steady job. Besides, I think the chances of making any decent money in music outside of playing shows or DJ gigs is so small that I would rather just focus on making good music and keeping another job on the side.

[Altitude909]

the signal to noise is going way down as a result of this. Every way to late to the game raver turned wannabe dance producer can put up a netlabel and release their Reason preset crap on to the web. I am sure there is quality stuff out there, but filtering out the crap is no small chore. Digging through record crates is a lot easier (if ppl still do that)

[aligak]

Originally Posted by Altitude909

the signal to noise is going way down as a result of this. Every way to late to the game raver turned wannabe dance producer can put up a netlabel and release their Reason preset crap on to the web. I am sure there is quality stuff out there, but filtering out the crap is no small chore. Digging through record crates is a lot easier (if ppl still do that)

I'm sorry some of us got into the game later than you. What in your book separates a "wannabe" from a "real" dance music producer? What year would be the cut-off time for being "late in the game"?

Also, digging through record crates is far more expensive than downloading free music. Last I checked, the average person's wage in most industrialized countries is much lower now than 10 years ago when you factor in inflation and rent. I used to be able to afford buying CD's and records 10 years ago.

[Richie]

I hope and wish for netlabels success, although I admit that this is the first I have seen that term. That is if the netlabel provides something for the artist, but I bet that more often than not the artist is involved in the net label. I have found many unsigned artists who I listen too through Itunes and Pandora, and I have herd "available by download only" after music on independent and collage radio ( streaming of course). If this is a means to allow anyone a shot at getting heard, I'm all for it, and I hope it works out. But like all things creative, the creatives are best at creating and the suits relentless in their ability to skew any opportunity in to their bank accounts, let's hope that little David can conquer Goliath on this one.

[supersuper]

Originally Posted by aligak

I have found some of the more daring, experimental, and not so polished sounding dance music on netlabels recently.

good music is always polished in some way you, as a listener, just do not know it till late in the piece.

[Altitude909]

Originally Posted by aligak

.. What in your book separates a "wannabe" from a "real" dance music producer?

Music ppl want to listen to/buy vs. garbage you decided that the world is worthy of receiving via your website. If it was better, someone who knows this business would have snapped up by now. For $4 a month, I can run my own netlabel of nothing but tracks composed of me farting into a microphone, there is no risk there. It is not about when or where you start, if it is good, then you will be on your way and you wont need some sorry self promoting netlabel to get there. This business has been around for 20+ years now and it is no different than the mainstream music biz, there are piles of people who think they are the next best thing but now have a venue for their crap for the whole world to see at no real risk. What used to be sorting through a hundred crappy tracks to find a gem is now a hundred thousand..

[in a blue field]

Originally Posted by Altitude909

Music ppl want to listen to/buy vs. garbage you decided that the world is worthy of receiving via your website. If it was better, someone who knows this business would have snapped up by now. For $4 a month, I can run my own netlabel of nothing but tracks composed of me farting into a microphone, there is no risk there. It is not about when or where you start, if it is good, then you will be on your way and you wont need some sorry self promoting netlabel to get there. This business has been around for 20+ years now and it is no different than the mainstream music biz, there are piles of people who think they are the next best thing but now have a venue for their crap for the whole world to see at no real risk. What used to be sorting through a hundred crappy tracks to find a gem is now a hundred thousand..

you're right on, i like to think tho (this is just me being rarely optimistic here) that it only represents another "tier" so to speak being added to the mix. the genre i see most represented amongst the netlabels is IDM, and i dont see that genre really receiving any more attention than it did before netlabels, i mean maybe a little but so little that it's impossible to distinguish between it just being a relatively new genre that's had a few years to expand and it being bekuz of these netlabels. would anyone sign those IDM people?? proly not; a bit of it is actually even pretty good, but you're still talking about absolutely minimal promotion and distribution thru an established label, no different than if you just popped it up there (which is another point in and of itself, that the convenience of netlabels is, like, wow), not to mention the waiting for it to come out on a physical medium, anyone who buys records knows this stuff can take literally years sometimes to go from dubplate to shelves, etc etc. i like to think that it is still recognizable in peoples' minds, the consumers, that there is a big difference between inserting yourself into the public sphere, and being accepted into the public sphere; that being said tho, there is a "little guy" in the music scene that would otherwise not be visible at all, in that sense i dont think the existence of these labels is so bad.

it's been a while since i've dug my claws into netlabel material, at one time tho i vampirically scoured it as i do to any given genre from time to time; i think like 3 albums'-worth of songs out of the several-gigs-worth of material i covered made it to my ipod. i dont think there's any reason to believe that this farting-into-microphones is stealing any fans from anybody. when netlabels first popped up, it was just all the people who couldnt get signed. i doubt much will change any time soon. so dont worry about sorting thru 100,000 kuz at least right now there's no reason for you to pay any mind to anything cept the original 100. here's another way to think of it: do you feel the need to check out every myspace band that ever messages you? so why should you pay any more attention to people who are just the same thing with a different website?

[Gribs]

I buy CDs from smaller labels with product online and also from individuals selling from their own websites. Either of these cases would be only for stuff that is demo'd online and I like and also usually involves someone with whom I have had one or more discussions on an online forum. Also, I buy CDs only and no MP3 downloads. I will download and keep MP3's that are given for free and that I like so that I can play them later on my iPod or Sandisk Sansa when I am exercising or at work (I keep no music on my work-based laptop). I am not interested in buying downloaded MP3s, but I do pay for a supporting public-radio style membership at an online radio station (somafm) and I am thinking about subscribing to hearts of space, too. However, in both of those cases the music is highly filtered by people who know well.

I personally enjoy listening to other peoples music, sounds, and demos very much. I am just starting to gain enough confidence with my own limited sound designs that I have shared a couple, but I would like to do more as I improve. I am very interested in the sharing, learning, and mutual listening and learning experiences that is possible. I think this is very different than an online record label though.

[aligak]

So far from what people have said on this thread, it appears that I should just stick to established "real" labels to promote my music (mostly via SoundCloud) and forget about sending to netlabels. If I get picked up, then great! If I don't, then I should try making better music. Heh...

That being said, I'm sure there are a small handful of quality netlabels. Can any of you recommend some? Entity and Prozent seem to be good.

[Yashagoro]

Aligak what kind of music do you make?

[aligak]

Originally Posted by Yashagoro

Aligak what kind of music do you make?

I guess the easiest way I could describe it currently is dark, somewhat raw, sorta arpeggiated tech-house with an ambient flare -- not really minimal and not maximal either, if that makes sense.

[Yashagoro]

Originally Posted by aligak

I guess the easiest way I could describe it currently is dark, somewhat raw, sorta arpeggiated tech-house with an ambient flare -- not really minimal and not maximal either, if that makes sense.

"arpeggiated tech-house with an ambient flare"

Any soundcloud page where I could listen to it?

[subsonix]

Originally Posted by aligak

I guess the easiest way I could describe it currently is dark, somewhat raw, sorta arpeggiated tech-house with an ambient flare -- not really minimal and not maximal either, if that makes sense.

is that not maybe progressive house then?

I'm involved in several labels that used to be all vinyl and are now all digital/net based.

I've been doing this for 20+ years and at the end of the day the quality is purely down to the guys running the label and their knowledge and quality control.

A good digital label will be the same as any other label. The main thing you need to know is how exactly they are going to promote the release. If they're not doing any promotion or don't have good connections to DJ's there's little to no point giving them your tracks.

also, Soundcloud seems to be a far better way to find new music than Beatport/Itunes etc. I've found it much more useful than any other music platform to find fresh music. So, if you're not on there already I would definitely set up a page and then get connecting with other like minded people...

(edit: ok, the penny has dropped - I didn't realise net labels weren't proper labels and they were giving stuff away/no money involved. I've never heard that term before. oops! Not sure how much use they would really be to be honest - unless they are really well connected)

[tribeofenki]

Just head-out, confront the choke and you'll find the good labels on the net.

[TacosWhenTwisted]

producer turned dj's wont support netlabels. There are plenty around but when you see most of the chartings and the tracklistings, even though they can get music for free from a netlabel there still isnt much support for netlabel released music. When there is support, its still rare and probably will remain rare if they do. Only lazy people dont go out and find music. I find good music all the time. I just go with the good labels and good artists and follow their work, and once in a while someone tells me of a new artist or label to check out, and the rest I might hear something somewhere live or in a online set. Its quite easy to find good music, the best music does find a way eventually. Even though there is a lot of bad music out there, the only music I manage to hear is the good music, every other piece of music gets lost in the mix somewhere and does not surface. So there is no real net loss or dilution of the good music.

netlabels is a poor business model, and as more producers turn to DJs, netlabels will have a hard time finding consistent support from these DJs, that proper labels who are grinding it out find. Call it a good form of nepotism if you want.

I follow maybe 100 regular Labels, i follow 0 netlabels, even though I can get music for free from them. Process that.

[aligak]

Originally Posted by TacosWhenTwisted

producer turned dj's wont support netlabels. There are plenty around but when you see most of the chartings and the tracklistings, even though they can get music for free from a netlabel there still isnt much support for netlabel released music. When there is support, its still rare and probably will remain rare if they do. Only lazy people dont go out and find music. I find good music all the time. I just go with the good labels and good artists and follow their work, and once in a while someone tells me of a new artist or label to check out, and the rest I might hear something somewhere live or in a online set. Its quite easy to find good music, the best music does find a way eventually. Even though there is a lot of bad music out there, the only music I manage to hear is the good music, every other piece of music gets lost in the mix somewhere and does not surface. So there is no real net loss or dilution of the good music.

netlabels is a poor business model, and as more producers turn to DJs, netlabels will have a hard time finding consistent support that proper labels who are grinding it out find.

I follow maybe 100 regular Labels, i follow 0 netlabels, even though I can get music for free from them. Process that.

I follow music almost exactly the way you do although I probably follow about 30-40 labels and about 2 or 3 netlabels. Is a decent netlabel good for an initial buzz or first time release or does taking that route "ruin" your reputation as to make it more difficult to get onto "real" labels in the future?

[TacosWhenTwisted]

Originally Posted by aligak

I follow music almost exactly the way you do although I probably follow about 30-40 labels and about 2 or 3 netlabels. Is a decent netlabel good an initial buzz or first time release or doe sit actually "ruin" your reputation as to make it more difficult to get onto "real" labels in the future?

I think it does ruin your rep a bit. Its risky to sign to a poor label or a netlabel. Of course there are exceptions where the talent supercedes the past. I can only think of 2 or 3 artists that have a netlabel background and have had success elsewhere. Maybe there are more but its not really mentioned in the blurb about a release. You have to be really talented to overcome the "blemish" of being associated with crappy labels or netlabels.

It makes business sense, well known respected labels have a status to maintain, and the artists they sign have to have a decent to strong lineage of good releases on quality labels before they bite. Its kinda like "what school did they go to" type of deal. They get a lot of music, so its likely they go with artists who have built a status through good labels. And then when you're talking about media attention, they seem to be hip to the quality labels that have a good roster of artists more than some crap label no one has heard of. Honestly, its better to keep shopping till you find a better label before releasing on a poor label. And if its a label that does not get as much attention as the more well known labels but has a consistent following and interest from quality DJs, then this label is worth dealing with as well, again if the music is good it should find a way.

So indeed it is a risk to release on just any unknown/poor label, because this becomes part of your history as an artist. And EDM is very much an industry of association and connections.

[TacosWhenTwisted]

Originally Posted by aligak

I follow music almost exactly the way you do although I probably follow about 30-40 labels and about 2 or 3 netlabels. Is a decent netlabel good an initial buzz or first time release or doe sit actually "ruin" your reputation as to make it more difficult to get onto "real" labels in the future?

Missed your other question, yah I think a decent netlabel is good enough for initial buzz, if they have a strong operation. There are good and bad netlabels. If you're talking about something like Archipel, then yes these guys would be a good platform to start with. What something like a good netlabel will help you with is if you're music is really good but on a netlabel, you might not find the attention of a long list of big DJs, but you will still find the attention of labels who will give you a shot, IF the music is really good.

[subsonix]

Originally Posted by TacosWhenTwisted

I think it does ruin your rep a bit. Its risky to sign to a poor label or a netlabel. Of course there are exceptions where the talent supercedes the past. I can only think of 2 or 3 artists that have a netlabel background and have had success elsewhere. Maybe there are more but its not really mentioned in the blurb about a release. You have to be really talented to overcome the "blemish" of being associated with crappy labels or netlabels.

It makes business sense, well known respected labels have a status to maintain, and the artists they sign have to have a decent to strong lineage of good releases on quality labels before they bite. Its kinda like "what school did they go to" type of deal. They get a lot of music, so its likely they go with artists who have built a status through good labels. And then when you're talking about media attention, they seem to be hip to the quality labels that have a good roster of artists more than some crap label no one has heard of. Honestly, its better to keep shopping till you find a better label before releasing on a poor label. And if its a label that does not get as much attention as the more well known labels but has a consistent following and interest from quality DJs, then this label is worth dealing with as well, again if the music is good it should find a way.

So indeed it is a risk to release on just any unknown/poor label, because this becomes part of your history as an artist. And EDM is very much an industry of association and connections.

totally agree. it's fair to say if you haven't heard of the label it's definitely a no go!

if a label hasn't got connections, it isn't worth shit these days and it takes a long time to do it yourself unless you have a friend with a high rolling address book

[in a blue field]

Originally Posted by aligak

Is a decent netlabel good an initial buzz or first time release or doe sit actually "ruin" your reputation as to make it more difficult to get onto "real" labels in the future?

i think honestly what would be far more impacting initial buzz would be to do just do the DIY promotion thing. put up youtube vids of your tunes, myspace/facebook/soundcloud/last.fm, and -- just being honest here -- circulate low-quality mp3s on p2p. i dont think there's anything a netlabel offers in terms of "boosting" you, is the thing, for all reasons mentioned.

like for example, there's this dnb label, commercial suicide. this label is owned by the artist klute, who is considered quite the badman in the genre. getting signed to commercial suicide means that klute thought you were good enough to have your name on his roster, which means not only that you have been accepted into a certain group of talent for which there is a bar to meet, but also that he was willing to take a financial risk on you.

none of that applies with a netlabel though -- what's the point? they release anything sent their way, have you seen how huge some of those labels are? some of them put out a hundred releases a year. there's nothing separating you from the flock by being signed to a label that signs anybody for zero effort or money. you could have made your own website and distributed through that, what's really the difference? what is the reason people would have to give you more attention than had you just gone DIY and represented yourself? you see what i'm saying, yes? it's a completely non-exclusive club, so what's the difference, what's the point? what's the difference between putting your music on a netlabel, and just dropping 320s of all your masters into a big p2p client?

do you think your music is worth paying for? regardless of whether or not that happens given the nature of the beast currently, just, do you think your music is good enough that even hypothetically people should find a certain monetary amount worth parting with in order to enjoy it? then you should DIY and see if anyone notices you.

[aligak]

Here is a reply I received from an AR guy when I posted a somewhat similar thread on another site:

It gets slightly harder to promote(ie sell)an artists work if they have 12 free net albums. As far as self promotion, yeah you gotta do it, but I suggest looking at it as 'brand promotion'. Your name and sound are only part of your brand. The rest is us to the people to decide. Therefore your online presence will influence this -for better or worse.

I honestly can't tell what the huge self promoters want. There's this one guy. He's really good. He has several releases on various net labels and he's everywhere online all the time. So I hope that was his goal because there is no point in signing him. Even though he's extremely good, there's little a label could do for him as far as promotion… On the other hand Frank Reggio put out two really great releases on a net label and got signed to Impulsive Art, although Frank has always promoted himself as a professional producer rather than Internet superstar.

….I know a guy on a good net label who releases his music for free and gets tons of downloads and invites to huge important gigs. He has no interest in selling music even though he obviously could. Wisp got signed to Planet Mu I think. Or was it Rephlex? ….Anyway anything can happen.

I put this up because many of you suggest being on Myspace (which I am but with very few friends), last.fm (which I'm also on), and many others. But as this guy states, it seems to also ruin your chances of getting signed if you already have a big online presence.

[aligak]

So of the very few quality dance music netlabels, what are they? I know Zymogen, but that is a bit more experimental and ambient.

I am listening to releases by a netlabel I thought seemed almost on par with the "real" quality labels as far as quality of releases based on online presence and their self-promotion, but while listening, I oftentimes hear a bit of either amateurish-ness - sometimes obvious and sometimes very slight . But I often hear more parts I could see improvements to than on a "real" release. Besides production value, I often hear at least one element that the track could do without, and that it would have been better to improve what was there without having that unnecessary part. The second more obvious aspect of this "amateur-ness" is the very choice of some of the sounds, the lack of layering, and non-evolving melodies or leads. Sometimes they get a part right, but it doesn't often last long enough. It reminds me of what someone had said on a thread that stuck with me: electronic music is easy to make but very difficult to make well.

At this point I'm thinking of ditching the entire idea of trying to get on a netlabel. So any high quality netlabels you guys know of?

[zerocrossing]

Netlables is the name of my new band so I'm the future of electronic music.

[Selidor]

@in a blue field: It's always a pleasure to read your insight on subjects such as these.

@aligak: That's a very interesting re-post/story you've put for us here. I thank you for it, although in all truth I find it somewhat confuses me as to what extent an online presence is helpful and to what extent it is hurtful.

[TacosWhenTwisted]

Originally Posted by aligak

Here is a reply I received from an AR guy when I posted a somewhat similar thread on another site:

It gets slightly harder to promote(ie sell)an artists work if they have 12 free net albums. As far as self promotion, yeah you gotta do it, but I suggest looking at it as 'brand promotion'. Your name and sound are only part of your brand. The rest is us to the people to decide. Therefore your online presence will influence this -for better or worse.

I honestly can't tell what the huge self promoters want. There's this one guy. He's really good. He has several releases on various net labels and he's everywhere online all the time. So I hope that was his goal because there is no point in signing him. Even though he's extremely good, there's little a label could do for him as far as promotion… On the other hand Frank Reggio put out two really great releases on a net label and got signed to Impulsive Art, although Frank has always promoted himself as a professional producer rather than Internet superstar.

….I know a guy on a good net label who releases his music for free and gets tons of downloads and invites to huge important gigs. He has no interest in selling music even though he obviously could. Wisp got signed to Planet Mu I think. Or was it Rephlex? ….Anyway anything can happen.

I put this up because many of you suggest being on Myspace (which I am but with very few friends), last.fm (which I'm also on), and many others. But as this guy states, it seems to also ruin your chances of getting signed if you already have a big online presence.

I dont think he is saying a big online presence is bad, I think most quality labels will not look at a big online presence as a negative, they most likely will see it as a positive. Unless they are grooming you as some unheard of talent, and want to find someone undiscovered and "develop" them, which is rare and does not happen much in EDM. I think what he is saying is 12 albums of music waters down the significance of you releasing music on a quality label, because you already have a ton of free music out there for people to pick up. So it lessens the value of a release by a good label if they have to compete with a ton of free netlabel music you have out there, especially when you're talking about 12 albums!

As a future label owner, I would not sign an artist's music who has a ton of exposure through giving away music. If they gave away a few tracks via mostly remixes that they could not get clearance or release, and it helped build exposure then i'd still be interested in them. It also comes down to discography. When you release music you are either building up a good discography or you're building up baggage, filler template abusing discography. So it is important you are dealing with the right labels, and the music are making is of good quality. There is no point to dropping filler tracks out there, just to say you released something to some friends. Sure if you're a player and you're goal is getting pussy, then go ahead. But if you want to build a career for yourself you have to reserve yourself from just dumping out music. The only way to get away with putting out a lot of music is if you're music is versatile and there are differences between the tracks, yet still maintaining a decent quality. You would be quickly expanding to different audiences and DJs this way.

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by zerocrossing

Netlables is the name of my new band so I'm the future of electronic music.

Really

Disturbing

Avatar

Every time I see it, I feel like my space has been invaded by an uber-geeky battle reenactment knight.

[e6400ultra]

Originally Posted by simonator

Really

Disturbing

Avatar

Every time I see it, I feel like my space has been invaded by an uber-geeky battle reenactment knight.

LOL. I've been wanting to say the same thing.

[Simonator]

Back to the topic...

Twisted irony:

The kids nowadays don't want to pay for music... but they don't want music that is free.

A lot of that is down to the perception that 'if it's free, it's not good enough to charge money for.'

... but also, there is SO MUCH FRICKING MUSIC BEING MADE you need to apply any filtering systems you can to the music you give the time of day to.
The easiest & most obvious one is that if music is being charged for, it has more merit that the free chaff.

Obviously this is not always the case. Artists who COULD get signed sometimes choose to put their music out for free.
For now, whilst I'd ideally like to put my music out for free, I'm putting my music through a 'proper' label because of how I perceive it is then perceived.

We live in strange times & this situation is ephemeral... ALL music will inevitably be free in a small matter of time.

The future of music is filtering systems.

[Barfunkel]

Originally Posted by simonator

The future of music is filtering systems.

I thought that was the past? People paid money so that someone else would filter out all the crap. Those filters were called record (record as in a physical medium that costs a lot of money to make) labels. Now people don't want to pay anymore, so the filters (at least the good ones that can't spend millions on marketing) are slowly going out of business.

By the way, could someone point out some truly great netlabels? I've honestly never heard an electronic track that I wanted to buy that wasn't available on vinyl (or in some rare cases, CD). I'm mostly into deep house ala Kerri Chandler, Moodymann and Theo Parrish, and I also like Detroit techno and european techno with Detroit influences (like Arne Weinberg or Kollektiv Turmstrasse). The best ones always seem to find their way on vinyl somehow, and I'm already spending way too much time on hunting down vinyl, if I started to research the netlabels, that offer hundreds or thousands of times more music, I'd never leave my apartment again, trying to find the gems among the fillers.

[patrickg]

I still am really into the idea of soundcloud...

I will keep making tracks, more like-minded folks will follow me, and I, them. It really is a great way to see what kind of impact your music can make on the little community that you've created, and gets created around you; you can see who's listening vs. who's commenting, who's downloading, etc.....If any of my stuff ever gets signed by the labels I'm into, (for me, I'm into labels like Backhome, Manual Music, traum, etc.) that how its going to happen.

I was suprised to see that this one track I've heard in Holden sets called "Robot Tribe" by a producer named Matthys, was released by himself on bandcamp...that is pretty awesome to me...what's more awesome is that his SCloud page is a ghost town, with about 6 comments and a few followers. Its crazy and inspiring to me that tracks this good exist so under the radar...and they're getting played out!

I don't see the point of a netlabel, if we're talking about the masses of labels that 'sign' anyone without filtering...do people just want a release number, in this case, or what? What do these filterless labels 'do', exactly?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that people are too obsessed with this whole 'label' term; its importance is fading. There is plenty a well established label will do for you, but it seems silly to be on a label for a label's sake, without the physical releases, paying for mastering, links to dj's pr and branding (though that term always leaves a sore taste in my mouth), etc.

After reading some of the posts, I realized In a Blue Field already said a lot of what I was trying to say.

Aligak, do you have a soundcloud, because I want to hear it...actually, I've been thinking lately that I'd like to know the music of more people on GS, especially ones who don't make the "here's my new track" threads (no offence to them, I've often considered it......)

ps I love, listen to, and produce weird but melodic bedroom techno, idm, etc. and my soundcloud is .com/patrickg