How to produce that wide, round sub-bass kick?

[samtastic]

hey all,
I've read through others posts on the topic, and not fond what Im after.

When it comes to percussion, I've always used sampled sounds layered and effected to give them colour. However, I can't work out how to create a kick like Audion's using samples.

You can hear a few different examples of his kick style here:

YouTube - Audion - Mouth To Mouth

YouTube - Audion - Look At The Moon (Original Mix)

I can get the click, but it's the round sub-bass umph that I'm struggling with. In my attempts, I've tried parallel comp (which helps with presence, but doesn't add my low-end umph) and using a low-exciter on a return channel (essentially rolling off everything about 400Hz, using a sub-bass enhancer and then mixing it in with the fader.

What tips have fellow Slutz got?

Is he perhaps using a drum synthesizer? Can anyone recommend any plug-in drum synths?

cheers : )

[golden beers]

i see you have some soft synths.
you could try using the moog or the arp2600 to build a kick just using the filter.

i know that the hardware will make awesome kicks.

• on the Arp make a small evelope zero attack, small decay, zero sustain and small release
• resonance full
• zero or small cut-off
• small to medium env follow on the filter
• tweek the cut-off, env amount and decay and release to get the sound you want

this should get you there, with layering

do you have any real analogue synths?

[Simonator]

Great question!

I'd love to be able to nail this sound.

My current thinking is that it's a kick sample for the 'pop', then a sine wave from a synthesiser for the sub. I think the key is getting the amp envelope right on the sine wave.

Check these badboys:







You'll find discussion on your topic in the following threads:

Advanced Kick drum tip thread

Those clubby subs

... But I've yet to see anyone define this perfectly here.

[Tarkovsky]

Hey there, I've a couple of idea for you on this sort of kick. Though honestly, mostly I just sample layering (though you've inspired me, I'm going to go off and try this myself). If all else fails, I've recommended the perfect sample pack... but of course it's much more flexible and will earn you those much needed XP for your quest through electronica.

Huzah!
......
Anyway.

If you've got the click right, resample that and layer it onto the decay. To my ears the kick sounds like that's been done anyway.
For the tail I might try using two sines, with a higher one at a fifth but mixed quieter. Also I'd try some pitch or a volume envelope between the two to get them moving.

Parralel compression... maybe. Have you tried a fair lump of compression with a moderate amount of attack (something in the 20s) and a short release (maybe the 30s) so that the kick trail lifts out? This should reduce the mids of the kick and emphasise the bass, giving that kind of hollow tock.

I can't send it to you, it wouldn't be fair on the maker but I think WAV Alchemy tech drum tools has a really good sample for that. It might be available in the free pack however.

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by Tarkovsky

I can't send it to you, it wouldn't be fair on the maker but I think WAV Alchemy tech drum tools has a really good sample for that. It might be available in the free pack however.

Is that the 'Drum Tools 01' pack?

[samtastic]

since im using Ableton, and have Operator, i've found this tute to be helpful:

YouTube - Synthesize a Deep Kick Drum in Ableton Live

yeah Oxia stuff is also a great example : )

[Tarkovsky]

yeah the drum tech tools, try the demo first see if you like it.

Update on the synth work... I've gotten a way of the way there using ableton's operator, most of the tone of the kick seems to be from the pitch envelopes D slope. However it lacks the punch of a pro kick. I think FM8's much more complex envelopes would be a lot better for this.

Here's what I've got so far. If you like it or have a use for it you're welcome to it. I personally don't think it has enough punch.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1170458/Kick.wav

Here's the same kick, resamples and pitched a little down. I think it sounds better...

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1170458/Kick%202.wav

Update... I actually really like the 2nd kick now. I think I'm going to use it in my next production...

Good luck!

[Simonator]

Sh**

Just when I'm thinking I need to do a Derp & quit looking at this site.... Then I see this video posted by Samtastic & the advice from Tarkovski concurring this info about using a fifth interval in the sine wave.... Never heard or thought of this before!!!

Cracking trick!!!

Finally I might have a use for the additional features of the Ableton Suite that I forked out for & never bother to put to use!!

Tarkovski, that second kick is just plain scary. I think you just dissolved some of my internal organs. I need to go lie down.

EDIT: Wave Alchemy samples are BAD ASS! I haven't bought that most recent one yet, but did download the sample pack already.

[explorer]

I think he's mainly using a low tuned 909 kick with some EQ. If you just want sub you could also use an 808 kick.

[artech909]

audion KICK is just a simple 808 sample and if yo want this crack transient in the begining use some Transient Shaper like SPL or SONNOX one or some compressor like VCA on my trusty UAD this plug-in ROCKS for these 808 snap

[aof21]

on "mouth to mouth" sounds like an 808 type kick, keep the release / decay time really long.

having a long decay time with a long "boom" will make your kicks sound much bigger.

then you need to play with the compression on the kick, or the drum buss, or on the master channel to get the elements to sit right so that you still have the proper amount of thud at the beginning of the sound.

on the second track "Look At..." there is offbeat sub-bass contributing to the feel of the kick being huge. Same on the first track actually, comes in at around 3 mins and change after the big build up.

The relationship between the actual "kick" and the subbass lines is key. A delicate balance to get a lot of bass and boominess in there while keeping everything relatively clean. Might be the youtube crappy compression going on, but on the Mouth track you start to hear how after the big drop the bass is all struggling to fit in there because there is so much going on. It requires very careful construction / synthesis at the outset and/or very careful mixing / mastering after the fact to fit all that bass in there and still have everything sound discreet and clean.

Don't think there's any real magic bullet here. You can do it with any original sound source, 808 sample, hard or soft synth, but the way you mix them, tune them and compress them is gonna be key. Keep experimenting with different settings, but try to keep the original sound sources really clean (i.e. pure waveforms, not overcompressed and processed kick drums) and keep those decay / release times really long (but yet still dying out before the next hit) and use your compression to shape and control it so the boominess is controlled.

For compression, I like multiband in Ozone, Ableton stock compressor, Waves MaxxVolume or MV2, but you could really do it with a lot of different plugs or hardware, just need to get the right settings.

Touch of reverb could get dangerous, but could also help to get a little more boom and ambiance.

This is in addition to what everyone else has already posted, not contradicting anything, think most of the other people have already suggested some good ideas of how to arrive at it and you could get to the same result with many different paths and tools.

[Funkfish]

Honestly guys while the Audion track sounds great I think most people tend to drastically over think things when it comes to producing EDM.

I would say the average GS poster is much more analytical and heady when it comes to audio than the average big name DJ. I've talked shop with many big name producers only to find their knowledge of production was surprisingly limited.

I used to engineer for Dubfire a while back and most of the stuff we did was just the EXS24 with a few samples they had collected over the years and they weren't even that amazing to begin with. Then pretty much everything was EQ'd
and compressed with the Logic plugins. The only secret weapon we had was the FATso (it was also the only piece of hardware in the entire studio)

I would say that Wave Alchemy Drum Tools 01 has better kicks than anything we were using. Use those drums and make a nice track then run it through a FATso and then have it professionally mastered and you're on your way to having a number one! (sarcasm)

[living sounds]

Yes, it's just an 808 and compression. Why anyone would want that sound is beyond me though...

[Methlab]

After overthinking this whole process I found a kick sample that I really love. Has the bottom and attack to translate out of any speaker. So I use it every time.

What I do is layer vinyl hits on top so it never sounds the same. I also adjust the envelope to the tempo of the song. A good kick sample will have a long enough tail of low end so you can taylor it how you want. It is a lot easier to tighten a kick then to lengthen it.

The other trick is to add an extra track of that little attacky click sound. I notice that a lot of house tracks open up their song with the main kick sample but add another small attack layer to build the track. You can use a different sound each time and it will change the kick tone again.

Along with this kick came a matched snare with 3 layers. I can pick and choose what layer I want for what song. I then add a 4th layer that matches the vinyl kick sample. Everything sounds nice and uniform when you do this (after adjusting envelopes)

The final thing I do is usually NOT tune the drums. I find that when I tune the drums to the key of the song, sometimes it does not hit as hard. Not because I went past +2 or -2 in pitch, but because I found that the tone of the drum is usually tight enough in an uptempo song that you don't need to tune it. It's not like a longer 808 that needs to be tuned because of the bass tail. Try tightening up your kick so at 120+ BPM the decays are tight and do not ring out, then tune it to the key of the song. It will most likely sound cheesy and the sample will not have it's punch.

The main reason to tune your drums in electronic is to get the kick and snare matched up. I already have that done with the samples I use. This is another reason to use vinyl samples from the same break on top of your drums (if you like that sort of sound).

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by Methlab

It's not like a longer 808 that needs to be tuned because of the bass tail.

The reason you need to tune an 808 is because it has a constant perceptible fundamental frequency; it does not have a falling pitch like most kicks.

Originally Posted by Methlab

The main reason to tune your drums in electronic is to get the kick and snare matched up. .

I think it depends entirely on the specific case. If you have a big kick with a recognisable constant pitch, and that is a C sharp when the root of your track is A minor, I think this could very easily sound like @ss.


Could you point us to where we can hear some samples of these productions? Do you have a Soundcloud?

[NewSc2]

Originally Posted by Methlab

The final thing I do is usually NOT tune the drums. I find that when I tune the drums to the key of the song, sometimes it does not hit as hard. Not because I went past +2 or -2 in pitch, but because I found that the tone of the drum is usually tight enough in an uptempo song that you don't need to tune it. It's not like a longer 808 that needs to be tuned because of the bass tail. Try tightening up your kick so at 120+ BPM the decays are tight and do not ring out, then tune it to the key of the song. It will most likely sound cheesy and the sample will not have it's punch.

The main reason to tune your drums in electronic is to get the kick and snare matched up. I already have that done with the samples I use. This is another reason to use vinyl samples from the same break on top of your drums (if you like that sort of sound).

You know, I thought so too, but I got into a discussion with another producer about this this past weekend, who was adamant about tuning his kicks to the key of his song, and not simply adding a fundamental low frequency to your sample.

So I tried this with a few kick drums I had (tune up an octave, fine tune pitch there, then tune back down an octave), and found that the kick just sat better underneath the bass. I'm not sure what I'd do about kicks beyond my key (50Hz-80Hz is only G1-D#2), but I'm trying to apply that principle more to my tracks. He said the low-end dissonance is hard to hear, but it really comes through on a loud PA.

[Methlab]

Originally Posted by Simonator

The reason you need to tune an 808 is because it has a constant perceptible fundamental frequency; it does not have a falling pitch like most kicks.



I think it depends entirely on the specific case. If you have a big kick with a recognisable constant pitch, and that is a C sharp when the root of your track is A minor, I think this could very easily sound like @ss.


Could you point us to where we can hear some samples of these productions? Do you have a Soundcloud?

I don't have a soundcloud. But I said exactly what you posted in my prior post. I mean to the T if you reread it.

I am working on getting some samples uploaded to my website I just need to figure out the easiest streaming utility to utilize.

[NewSc2]

Originally Posted by Methlab

I don't have a soundcloud. But I said exactly what you posted in my prior post. I mean to the T if you reread it.

I am working on getting some samples uploaded to my website I just need to figure out the easiest streaming utility to utilize.

Soundcloud is free and embeddable.

[Methlab]

cool. So do they make a Widget that you can install on a blog? That would be perfection.

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by Methlab

But I said exactly what you posted in my prior post. I mean to the T if you reread it.

I guess that's perhaps what you meant.

My point was though;

The 808 does not need to be tuned 'because of'

Originally Posted by Methlab

the bass tail.

... you could have a kick with a super-huge bass tail that would not need tuning to your track if its pitch is falling...
The 808 kick needs to be tuned because it has a constant pitch.

I'm essentially speculating by implication that perhaps the reason you are saying you are not needing tune the drums is possibly because the kick's pitch falls... which I why I wanted to have a listen to the track.

I'm also saying that regarding this:

Originally Posted by Methlab

The main reason to tune your drums in electronic is to get the kick and snare matched up.

I'd personally contend that the most important factor is normally to get your kick in tune/sitting nicely with your musical elements.
Compared with this, the tune of the snare is often insignificant (IMO)... except when there is a discernible pitch to the snare... in which case the same thing applies; you tune the snare to match the song (which would then likely be also be tuning it to match the kick... because you've tuned the kick to match the song already.).

[findletron]

Easy Peasey

Layer 2 or more kicks together, using ADSR Envs, pitch and steep 24dB filters to eliminate unwanted elements from each

For Example, 1 subby, deep kick, filtered so that is the only audible element is that looooow sub bass, tuned to the CONTEXT of your track, and 1x 'middy' kick, 1x clicky kick. filtered to avoid phase interactions or mud.

Smash everything together with a compressor if ya like.

Works for me! But takes a little practice, This is the best way to deal with kicks.. Its important to be able to tune SPECIFIC elements of the kick independently to achieve your megakick.

Good luck!

[NewSc2]

Originally Posted by Methlab

cool. So do they make a Widget that you can install on a blog? That would be perfection.

Not sure, I've always just used the embed function.

[Methlab]

Originally Posted by NewSc2

Not sure, I've always just used the embed function.

Cool. Thanks for that tip. I will see if I can pull off embedding it widget style on a blog. If so I will throw something up.

[crufty]

agree that it sounds like a 909 w/heavy shelving and a low end boost


also, you can take a real 909, turn the level up, turn the gain up on your mixer til it hits the red and get very massive kicks. 999 even more massive.

so maybe an mbase?

[protoculture]

Great thread thumbsup

[knot gillcup]

if you ever get a chance to listen to this record:

YouTube - DeepChord - A1 Untitled (DC14)

you'll hear one of the warmest sine kicks ever imo.
this is the a1 trak,while a2 takes it to the extreme

[Nev]

Originally Posted by knot gillcup

if you ever get a chance to listen to this record:

YouTube - DeepChord - A1 Untitled (DC14)

you'll hear one of the warmest sine kicks ever imo.
this is the a1 trak,while a2 takes it to the extreme

Youtube does that track no justice, it has to be listened to from the original on a good system with a sub that will rock your socks.

[kreeper_6]

Feed your drum machine donuts.

[kdgh]

as in the deepchord kicks.

- slow pitch decays
- no click
- make the clicks with the percussion/noise you got in the song.
- sidechain the kick a bit (it could help to give it the pressing feeling

[samtastic]

Been playing around with the demo of KVR's Bazzism plug-in. Seems to be capable of quickly producing multiple sine-based kicks.

Worth a look/listen:

KVR: Intelligent Sounds & Music (ISM) BazzISM - Virtual Instrument