MS-20 filter difference

[bjorn]

i found out today that my ms-20 is later version with LM13600 filter daughter board
after i found it out, i started wondering how the earlier ones with korg-35 filter sound like.. it is often said that the ones with korg-35 filter are harsher and more piercing in a good way... i'm wondering how it can be more.. I feel that mine is already sounding good and piercing through in the mix
I just made short clip with using VCO 1 sawtooth 32' sweeping HPF and LPF one by one. both filters' peak at 10, Decay, Sustain at 10

it would be great if other ms20 owners can chime in with their ms20 clips too
just wanna see how differently ms20 can be sounding
there can be no point doing this too but you never know

[W-W-Int]

you have an ms-20 with a korg designed dual low/highpass resonant filter and want to know how the other korg dual low/highpass resonant filter sounds?

learn to know when good is good and make some music already.

[alexp]

Originally Posted by W-W-Int

you have an ms-20 with a korg designed dual low/highpass resonant filter and want to know how the other korg dual low/highpass resonant filter sounds?

learn to know when good is good and make some music already.

They actually sound quite different. But Im sure you knew that.



alexP

[bjorn]

Originally Posted by W-W-Int

you have an ms-20 with a korg designed dual low/highpass resonant filter and want to know how the other korg dual low/highpass resonant filter sounds?

learn to know when good is good and make some music already.

I see what you mean
but having curiosity doesn't mean that I don't make music already with it...
I've been using my ms-20 for about two years and it's doing big role in my production. just recently I found out that ms-20 has two different filters and today I found out that mine is the later version so I wondered how the earlier version sound like since a lot of people say it sounds quite different..
we are on gearslutz, aren't we?
being curious is not a bad thing, I thought

[ctrlshft]

I had an older style ms-20 for a while, primary diff I heard from your sample is that the newer filter sounds cleaner, less harmonic distortion and dirt going on than the older one. The newer one sounds great too, just different.

Here's a couple snippets I made with mine before I sold it:
CTRLSHFT - MS-20 snippets - SoundCloud

[alexp]

The old MS20s have the Korg 35 chip which was I think a proprietary chip made just for the MS20. It was sealed in resin and everything!!! I believe they admitted it was a Sallen Key design though which is actually rather brilliant. The second filter version uses the LM13600 chip which is an off the shelf chip. No one knows why they swapped it out, although cost cant be ruled out (the transistors would need to be matched for optimum performance in the 35 circuit which can get pricey), but because of it, we get a couple diff sounding units. Which at the end of the day is pretty awesome anyways!


alexP

[triez]

I have the internal schematic of the Korg 35 chip here in front of me, you wouldn't believe how simple it is, it is genius. Inside that sealed package there is, wait for it - 6 resistors and 5 transistors. That's it.

[Demokid]

I have the first (35 chip) version. My friend bought an MS20 last year and he’s got the new version. I honestly can't hear the difference between them. Is it in certain conditions like say high resonance or some types of the sound or do you need an oscilloscope to "hear it"?

Best regards
Demokid

[monsterz]

The KORG35 model tends to break into a nice creamy fuzz when the resonance is pushed into oscillation, kind of a like a tube amp breaking up. The newer filter tends not to break up so much but retains the resonant "howl" or "whistle" and is cleaner.
The KORG35 is more rock n roll! Check out "Metal Fingers In My Body" by Add N to X on Spotify, the bass line is KORG35 MS20.
I have found though that all the MS20's I have used sound slightly different!

[golden beers]

Originally Posted by Demokid

I have the first (35 chip) version. My friend bought an MS20 last year and he’s got the new version. I honestly can't hear the difference between them. Is it in certain conditions like say high resonance or some types of the sound or do you need an oscilloscope to "hear it"?

Best regards
Demokid

are you sure he has the new filter.
if youre looking for 'the screw' to tell, they made that change before they changed the filter. i guess it's not as simple as MK1 Mk2. there has been at least one revision between the filter changes.

what i heard was the older filter sounded harder and the newer one is more useable.

[tyler477]

Originally Posted by golden beers

are you sure he has the new filter.
if youre looking for 'the screw' to tell, they made that change before they changed the filter. i guess it's not as simple as MK1 Mk2. there has been at least one revision between the filter changes.

what i heard was the older filter sounded harder and the newer one is more useable.

I think this is the 3rd time you have made this exact post on here... haha I have the tell tale "screw" I wonder what filter I have... hmmmm

[golden beers]

Originally Posted by tyler477

I think this is the 3rd time you have made this exact post on here... haha I have the tell tale "screw" I wonder what filter I have... hmmmm

i still think there's about 3 slutz that haven't heard it yet.!
maybe i should start a thread about it!

[Demokid]

Originally Posted by golden beers

are you sure he has the new filter.
if youre looking for 'the screw' to tell, they made that change before they changed the filter. i guess it's not as simple as MK1 Mk2. there has been at least one revision between the filter changes.

what i heard was the older filter sounded harder and the newer one is more useable.

That I didn't know. :| So I have to open her up to see then?

Kind regards
Demokid

[golden beers]

Originally Posted by Demokid

That I didn't know. :| So I have to open her up to see then?

Kind regards
Demokid

if you feel the need to know perhaps some research would do instead.
i'm sure it will be all serial numbers X onwards.

or open it up.

[Dubai]

Originally Posted by Demokid

I have the first (35 chip) version. My friend bought an MS20 last year and he’s got the new version. I honestly can't hear the difference between them. Is it in certain conditions like say high resonance or some types of the sound or do you need an oscilloscope to "hear it"?

Best regards
Demokid

just because you & your friend cant, does not mean everybody cant.

[Dubai]

Originally Posted by bjorn

i found out today that my ms-20 is later version with LM13600 filter daughter board
after i found it out, i started wondering how the earlier ones with korg-35 filter sound like.. it is often said that the ones with korg-35 filter are harsher and more piercing in a good way... i'm wondering how it can be more.. I feel that mine is already sounding good and piercing through in the mix
I just made short clip with using VCO 1 sawtooth 32' sweeping HPF and LPF one by one. both filters' peak at 10, Decay, Sustain at 10

it would be great if other ms20 owners can chime in with their ms20 clips too
just wanna see how differently ms20 can be sounding
there can be no point doing this too but you never know

what AD converters do you used?

[Dubai]

Originally Posted by ctrlshft

I had an older style ms-20 for a while, primary diff I heard from your sample is that the newer filter sounds cleaner, less harmonic distortion and dirt going on than the older one. The newer one sounds great too, just different.

Here's a couple snippets I made with mine before I sold it:
CTRLSHFT - MS-20 snippets - SoundCloud

what AD converter do you used?

what synth were used in the Satellite song ? 05:30
sounds great.

[ctrlshft]

Originally Posted by Dubai

what AD converter do you used?

what synth were used in the Satellite song ? 05:30
sounds great.

It's a multisampled MS-20 through a ART Pro VLA into Mackie Onyx into a Presonus Firebox. Nothing special, really.

[bjorn]

Originally Posted by ctrlshft

I had an older style ms-20 for a while, primary diff I heard from your sample is that the newer filter sounds cleaner, less harmonic distortion and dirt going on than the older one. The newer one sounds great too, just different.

Here's a couple snippets I made with mine before I sold it:
CTRLSHFT - MS-20 snippets - SoundCloud

wow it sounds quite different
definitely more harmonic distortion and dirt on yours, sounds great
now it makes me wanting to get MS-10 lol
it's funny not another ms-20 but ms-10 haha

Originally Posted by Demokid

That I didn't know. :| So I have to open her up to see then?

Kind regards
Demokid

yeah it's better to open it up and see.. just unscrew 9 screws on the left side and you can see whether it has daughter board or not.
serial numbers are quite weird. I've searched serial numbers and mine has earlier numbers than some of MK1 so I thought mine could be mk1 with screw on VCA graphic but it is apparently not.

Originally Posted by Dubai

what AD converters do you used?

I used UA 2192

[W-W-Int]

Originally Posted by alexp

They actually sound quite different. But Im sure you knew that.



alexP

they actually sound slightly different and only at certain settings for even that. they both sound fantastic however. and that was what i meant, worrying over which filter revision you have in an ms-20 is chasing ghosts. just enjoy the ms-20 and don't worry about it.

now an arp 2600 is a completely different story. what filter you have in that makes a huge difference as they changed the entire gain staging in the whole thing aong with the filters so it makes a huge difference even when not using the filters at all.

ms-20 it's just the filer area and both revisions are fantastic filters so no need to panic over which version.

[andy_cytomic]

Tim Stinchcombe has written an excellent paper on the differences between the MS-20 rev1 and the MS-20 rev2 filters here:

http://www.timstinchcombe.co.uk/synth/MS20_study.pdf

The most obvious difference will be due to the placement of limiting diodes. In the rev1 they are in the main output audio path, so even with no resonance this is like putting your synth signal through a guitar stomp box - twice. With resonance the self oscillation "sin" is saturated by the diodes and then output directly, so the tone of the resonance is harsher.

In the rev2 filter the limiting diodes are in the feedback path, so with no resonance there is no stomp box drive. With maximum resonance the saturated self oscillation "sin" goes through two stages of low pass filtering before you hear it, so the harmonics have a steeper rolloff and so aren't quite so harsh.

The rev1 and rev2 both have their strengths and weaknesses. You can get a deeper and more pure bass tone from the rev2, but the rev1 gives you more distressed and aggressive tones. You could just put a stomp box post rev2 with the tone control wide open if you wanted some extra drive and it would get you most of the way. The rev1 also has some interesting asymmetries in it's filter core, where the incoming signal effects both cutoff and resonance of the filter in an asymmetric manner, which imparts its own character as well.

In the end though I really think it matters more what you do with them in a musical context than any subtle differences in tone, they are both brilliant noise machines with oodles of character.

[rasseru]

well ive got a screw model and Ive always described it as being a brilliant dirt box....


i was going to chime in and say that it doesnt matter which because they both distort beautifully but now i dont know which ive got.


i guess you could try to find where the limiting & distortion happens with the Q at 0?


I really want to do the LFO range mod. always seems too slow for me that one.

[Xero]

you may or may not have a korg 35.

you really do sorta have to open it up and peek inside

the screw means nothing

the only SURE way to know if you've got a korg35, is if you've got one of the older gray-colored ms-20's (the later ones were more of a black color)...i myself have one of the older gray ones, with the korg 35, and that filter is pretty damn piercing.

[golden beers]

Originally Posted by Xero

you may or may not have a korg 35.

you really do sorta have to open it up and peek inside

the screw means nothing

the only SURE way to know if you've got a korg35, is if you've got one of the older gray-colored ms-20's (the later ones were more of a black color)...i myself have one of the older gray ones, with the korg 35, and that filter is pretty damn piercing.

the screw does mean something.

if you DON'T have the screw then you DO have the older filter.

if you DO have the screw then you may or may not have the older filter.