Advanced Kick drum tip thread

[Methlab]

I wanted to make a thread that is a little more deep into kick drum sound design. I think most of us know by now that you need a great sample, what frequencies are best and sidechain compression is key..etc, but there are other things that factor in.

I am going to post a few kicks later that illustrate (IMO) some cool techniques that I would like to get better at.

The first thing is sample tails. Say you use a kick sample for your main body attack and punch. I notice that some of these samples are left with tails that suck in to the next beat. I was wondering a few things on this one..is most of this done in something like Battery where you just use the ADSR and shape the tail, or is this a little more advanced where you would maybe cut the tail out and reverse it? It adds a lot of movement to a beat.

The second thiing is I notice a lot of producers will open with the first kick and then when the track kicks in, they drop another deep layer under it. Obviously you can use an 808 or 909 for this, but I have heard some subs that are a lot darker and not only add weight, but also stay deep and focused without getting too boomy. Basically they make the track sound heavier and harder. I can find these sounds in my sample libraries I am sure, but there is cool processing also. It sounds like there may be some reverb in there, soo..


I also was wondering the best way to sidechain reverb to a kick..what is a good reverb setting to try this with (I'm guessing it would be a pretty short reverb tail) and how do you route it? I think there is a reverse reveb in RenVerb, but I need to double check. I sidechain my kicks, but I would like to see how far I can take it. If it is simply setting up a reverb channel and sending it to the sidechain compressor channel, then that's cool, but I'd like to make sure I am doing it right.

Finally, say you have a drum sound you made or sampled, and want shape it more and also line it up with a lower drum so the phase is right and they blend. I always used battery for this, but I was wondering if there was a better app for this that I did not know about.

Anyway, other good tips/sample library reccomendations or synths are welcome, I just wanted to address a few things I have heard in analyzing tracks. The punchiness of the top kick without getting too clicky and narrow is not easy, and getting your lower kick to not only add depth but also character to a track is not super easy either.

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by Methlab

The second thiing is I notice a lot of producers will open with the first kick and then when the track kicks in, they drop another deep layer under it. Obviously you can use an 808 or 909 for this, but I have heard some subs that are a lot darker and not only add weight, but also stay deep and focused without getting too boomy. Basically they make the track sound heavier and harder. I can find these sounds in my sample libraries I am sure, but there is cool processing also. It sounds like there may be some reverb in there, soo..

To achieve this, I personally like to make my kick super heavy, then simply use an automated HP filter to trim this weight through the intro beats & drop when the time is right.

On a separate related note, I personally I find I get much better results from getting one great sample to start with, then EQing & comp'ing to taste... rather than layering several kicks.

[peter_martin]

Good tips, my 2cents...

All you need is a -> that you can assign pitch modulation to an ASDR envelope with a sine wave.

Way way better result for absolute control over the low end and 'punch' of the kick than messing around with 'eq and compression' on some one elses sample. The best possible sound you can get is get it right down to the very source.

Adjust the ASDR pitch envelope of the kick to the bassline and within the mix while everything is playing for the perfect kick and low end mojo without much need for a ton of over the top side chain comp (for your bassline) and even using compression (for your kick). Remember compression makes things smaller.

Sampling and layering is also a very powerful tool to add a little more flavor to the mid/top part of the kick. But for the low end give me 45 seconds and the right sine wav and you won't have to even compress the thing to get it to sound good and even.

The biggest kicks I've made are huge, and have zero compression and a little bit of eq.

[Methlab]

Simonator, I agree, don't get me wrong.

But if you can drop in a 100hz and up punch sample and also have a deeper layer under that, you can add more dynamics to your track.

I have cubase 5 and I am not even sure how to trigger a synth sine wav with the kick's sidechain yet. I am just happy to be able to route stuff and trigger my sidechain compressor with the kick finally.

Peter what synth would you reccomend for this task? I have a fair amount through the years, so I am sure if you listed some, I would have one of the good ones.

[Methlab]

I was also thinking about buying some Thomas Penton samples. I have had the Vengeance for years, and they just don't punch at all like I want.

I hear the Penton's sound amazing and are already pretty effected. Are they too big to layer with a subtone or can you still layer them a little? I don't want to buy too many sample libraries since I make drum sounds too, but I do want one quality set.

[mullet]

Originally Posted by simonator

To achieve this, I personally like to make my kick super heavy, then simply use an automated HP filter to trim this weight through the intro beats & drop when the time is right.

do you HP filter with your EQ or do you use a separate filter for this?

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by peter_martin

Good tips, my 2cents...

All you need is a -> that you can assign pitch modulation to an ASDR envelope with a sine wave.

Way way better result for absolute control over the low end and 'punch' of the kick than messing around with 'eq and compression' on some one elses sample. The best possible sound you can get is get it right down to the very source.

Adjust the ASDR pitch envelope of the kick to the bassline and within the mix while everything is playing for the perfect kick and low end mojo without much need for a ton of over the top side chain comp (for your bassline) and even using compression (for your kick). Remember compression makes things smaller.

Sampling and layering is also a very powerful tool to add a little more flavor to the mid/top part of the kick. But for the low end give me 45 seconds and the right sine wav and you won't have to even compress the thing to get it to sound good and even.

The biggest kicks I've made are huge, and have zero compression and a little bit of eq.

Reason I'm using EQ & compressor on the kick of the track I'm currently working on:

With the method you describe (and with the vast majority of kick drum samples), because the pitch is sweeping downwards over time, the heaviest bass occurs a short time after the initial attack.

I often try to EQ in more weight around 30-40Hz so that the kick is heavy from the very beginning of the sample.

Typically, when I EQ in more 30-40Hz, I'll then have an undesirable oval shaped kick waveform where the latter half of the kick (which is already loud at 30-40) gets accentuated so that it becomes louder than the initial attack transient.
In order to counteract that, I'll use a compressor with an attack long enough to allow through my transient, but then squash down the out-of-control end of the sample.
I'll be watching this waveform change in real time in my oscilloscope until I get a nice triangle that looks somewhat like a play button on a cassette deck.

[mullet]

Originally Posted by Methlab

I was also thinking about buying some Thomas Penton samples. I have had the Vengeance for years, and they just don't punch at all like I want.

I hear the Penton's sound amazing and are already pretty effected. Are they too big to layer with a subtone or can you still layer them a little? I don't want to buy too many sample libraries since I make drum sounds too, but I do want one quality set.

I like the first thomas penton series, but not a big fan of vol 2 and 3... Check out Wave Alchemy packs too.. Kicks are already processed as well and those babies pound..

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by mullet

do you HP filter with your EQ or do you use a separate filter for this?

Typically I'll use Fabfilter Simplon slapped over the whole track (on my master channel)

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by mullet

I like the first thomas penton series, but not a big fan of vol 2 and 3... Check out Wave Alchemy packs too.. Kicks are already processed as well and those babies pound..

+1

I've not heard anything that compares with Wave Alchemy.

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by Methlab

Simonator, I agree, don't get me wrong.

But if you can drop in a 100hz and up punch sample and also have a deeper layer under that, you can add more dynamics to your track.

Can you explain what you mean by this?


Using just one sample, I'm able to EQ in the desired amount of punch around 100Hz, and EQ in all the sub I want.

I don't get what you mean about dynamics though.

[Methlab]

I grabbed the free Alchemy drums to check them out and none of them punched like I am looking for to be honest. They are really good samples..far better then the vengeance ones, but they didnt really have any sounds that I am looking for. I will run through them again and see if I missed something.

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by peter_martin

All you need is a -> that you can assign pitch modulation to an ASDR envelope with a sine wave.

not if you're using a self resonant filter alone to make your kick cos then all you need is an ASDR envelope for filter

[Methlab]

Originally Posted by simonator

Can you explain what you mean by this?


Using just one sample, I'm able to EQ in the desired amount of punch around 100Hz, and EQ in all the sub I want.

I don't get what you mean about dynamics though.

I mean if you have 2 layers to your kick sound, you can drop one out during your track and add it back in for dynamics. I really like how that sounds, and it makes your tracks hit harder when you want them to peak.

The key is to have that low sample tuned to a note that works in the song, and that is why I want to trigger a synth sine so I can tune it and not have it get too floppy or tight like a sample would.

[axm311]

Originally Posted by peter_martin

Good tips, my 2cents...

All you need is a -> that you can assign pitch modulation to an ASDR envelope with a sine wave.

Originally Posted by Methlab

Peter what synth would you reccomend for this task?

+1

i have a nord lead 2 but i havent figured out how (if?) you can do this

[mekohler]

I am never satisfied with my kick and snare. I have yet to find a single kick sample that satisfied me (with processing). :(

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by Methlab

I mean if you have 2 layers to your kick sound, you can drop one out during your track and add it back in for dynamics. I really like how that sounds, and it makes your tracks hit harder when you want them to peak.

I fully agree with your intent... as I say- I prefer to just have a fat kick to start with, then achieve this dynamic with a high pass filter;

Khyan - Tracks - SoundCloud

I'm currently waiting to get these tracks back from my mastering engineer... but these demos on soundcloud are pretty close to my final pre-masters.

[mullet]

Originally Posted by simonator

Typically I'll use Fabfilter Simplon slapped over the whole track (on my master channel)

thanks man! so you HP the whole track?

[mullet]

Originally Posted by Methlab

I grabbed the free Alchemy drums to check them out and none of them punched like I am looking for to be honest. They are really good samples..far better then the vengeance ones, but they didnt really have any sounds that I am looking for. I will run through them again and see if I missed something.

I havent listened to these but I also heard Goldbaby sample packs are really good.. might be more what you're looking for as much of what they have are high quality 808 samples and a lot more subby type kicks..

[Methlab]

Originally Posted by mullet

thanks man! so you HP the whole track?

Well you would automate that filter for buildups, breakdowns..etc. At least I would.

[mullet]

Originally Posted by Methlab

Well you would automate that filter for buildups, breakdowns..etc. At least I would.

Yes but I havent tried doing it to the whole track.. I just thought you would need to keep something fixed to maintain volume, if nothing else

[Simonator]

Originally Posted by mullet

thanks man! so you HP the whole track?

Kind of... the filter is always switched on... but for most of the track the cut-off frequency will be 0Hz.

Just for the intro beats & for occasional drop-outs I'll automate the cut-off frequency to rise, removing the very lowest frequencies... before slamming them back. You can hear this in action in all three of these tracks assuming you have speakers that will go that low:

Khyan - Tracks - SoundCloud

Originally Posted by mullet

I just thought you would need to keep something fixed to maintain volume, if nothing else

Embrace dynamics ;-)

[wave alchemy]

@ Methlab

Have you got any examples of the style of kick drums you are referring to?

I will have a go at recreating a few if you'd like.

p.s Has anyone noticed that the Thomas Penton drum samples have been completely smashed with a limiter? Many look lile sqaure waves - it really shocked me when we bought the library to compare what was on the market.

[W-W-Int]

a good kick building method starts with the low end simple sine first.
pick the bottom frequency that remains constant and just use a simple sine wave at that frequency.


now go create an attack transient sample to layer on top of it. make sure it has no frequencies below 3-400hz by using a highpass filter on it set there. once you have a good attack transient sample line it up over the sine wave so that the attck transient peak lines up on top of the sine around the 40-60% peak of the sine. that way the sine wave sub portion rolls along at max amplitude just after the attack transient dies down. now go back and envelope the start of the sine to a 0 level until just barely after the attack transient will start. then it ramps up fast to 100% of it's original value at the point where the attack transient falls off again. you do this so you can chop out the beginning of the sine for lining it up and having it hit faster. so as stated just last sentence now go and chop off the zeroed portion of the sine with a cut function to remove any portion of the sample before the attack starts so you can have a fast and timed correctly sample.


what you should be left with is a sine at your desired frequency with a long duration and a fast attack transient at the very beginning of that and just leading it slightly with nothing before the attack transient starts it's attack ramp up. the sine can last for as long as you like as you'll be loading this sample in a sampler and using an adsr set to 0 attack and decay and sustain and release to taste and to fit in your track's tempo

[Methlab]

Originally Posted by wave alchemy

@ Methlab

Have you got any examples of the style of kick drums you are referring to?

I will have a go at recreating a few if you'd like.

p.s Has anyone noticed that the Thomas Penton drum samples have been completely smashed with a limiter? Many look lile sqaure waves - it really shocked me when we bought the library to compare what was on the market.

Thanks, and I have attached 2.The first is the attacky kick, and the second is the attacky kick with the lower sub drop. I really want to figure out how to make the sample suck out at the end. If you listen real close you can hear it, and that subtle part makes the drums move better. I am messing with ADSRs in Battery to try and figure it out, but I have not gotten it yet.

I have been using an oscillator and layering 3 samples. one for body and one for attack. The 3rd is the sub level. The oscillator is huge because it helps me see phasing. If I get something I like, Ill post it, but Im trying to figure out how to make that release really suck out in Battery and the mapping is not easy.

[dashbad]

For me the one artist EDM right now that produces amazing kicks is Reboot. Any guidance on how he gets them sooooo fat would be great. Some examples:

YouTube - Reboot - Caminando

YouTube - Vandong - Reboot (Good Qual.)

In both of these tracks the full kick comes in after an intro with a weaker kick which leads me to believe that they are standard kicks layered with a very low sine or similar.

Having said that I've struggled to recreate them or get kicks with a similar 'muffled' sound cut through the mix.

[kasprouch]

Originally Posted by dashbad

Any guidance on how he gets them sooooo fat would be great.

19 years of production

[shaneynclan]

hello guys.
first off i wanted to say i'm new so hello.
i picked up a pretty cool trick (and though i've never shared this with anyone before i don't mind posting it)
i forget where i picked it up, but add your own twist to it, most of the time it creates nice kicks for me.
i wrote this tut in hopes that you will take what i have written here not for gospel, but a general idea to get you started.
if you see anything which you seem incorrect please let me know.

what you will need:
sony sound forge, battery 3, some kick sample with good attack transients (depending on style i usually choose the vengeance stuff)
let me explain the process first.
what the goal is:
layer 2 samples: a kick created in sound forge using the FM synthesis generator to create a since wave kick for low freqs, and using the transient from the sampled kick for the attack phase. one can then pitch low kick up or down to match the pitch of the tune.

now how to do it:
first and foremost, your going to need to know how long your kick created in sound forge should be. there is a simple trick used to calculate the length in ms: 60/BPM * 1000 = length in ms
for example assuming your track is 140 BPM's: 60/140 * 1000 = 428.5714 ms.

now that we know how long the kick should be, we can go about creating the sine kick in sound forge.
create a new file, I tend to use 44.1 16 bit mono so the low end stays as clean as possible, but mess around and find out what works best for you.
next you'll need to use the fm synthesis to create the kick: tools>synthesis>fm.
use these settings: waveform length: 1.000, operator shape sine, freq, 110hz, feedback 0%, amplitude 0.0 db.
you have now created a sine wave that operates at 110 hz. This means that you should use this kick in relation to notes A. I will create a chart here for frequency and notes:

freq (hz) note
55 A1
58.270 A#1
61.740 B1
65.410 C2
69.300 C#2
73.420 D2
77.780 D#2
82.410 E2
87.310 F2
92.500 F#2
98.000 G2
103.830 G#2
110.000 A2

*whew* pretty crazy shit dude.
you must now pitch the sine wave so it sounds like a kick rather than some boring sine wave.
select the amount that corresponds to how long your kick should be in ms.
in this case 428 i've found that it's usually a little easier to make the kick a *tad* bit longer and then you can do the calculations again at the end once you add them into battery.
now effects>pitch>bend
select the entire section in ms and process.
you now have a remotely recognizable kick.
repeat process and trim the selection so you have a piece of the kick.
you can pitch it multiple times if needed and i suggest playing with the amount of the wave that you pitch.
save the file.
now on to battery in your session:
open the kick that you would like to use on the attack phase.
make sure the attack is 0 ms, adjust hold to taste. you should not be using the entire kick, only the attack.
i suggest using 50 hold and 100 sustain, but use your ears.
now load the sine wave in the next cell.

use an attack of 170 ms the hold to 48 and sustain to 221
keep in mind these settings will be slightly different based on the sample you are using for the kick. just use your ears.
the attack phase should hit immediately and face out and the sine kick should slide in without any dip in the signal, nor fade.
optional pitch envelope: -2.14 D1=25, D2 = o
now pitch the low end kick based on the note in your tune!
hooray!

[goldphinga]

Its ez to complicate stuff and get super nerdy about one drum but i prefer just to try and vibe it out. Try and find one great kick sample thats the dominant force and contains the right elements to start with ie sub,low,low midi, mid hi mid and tops, punch etc. All this IS possible with the right sample.

If the sample is lacking in any way then key a sine to add more subs or grab a kick with a nice attack and filter out all the elements apart from the attack. Then compress it all together to taste.

I have many tracks with just one kick in but everyones taste and methods differ.

[Methlab]

I like to nerd out now and then because it helps me get better, as long as I don't do it all the time, and focus on making music im good.

I spent about 4 hours last night and reinstroduced myself to battery's filtering and layering powers.

I agree about one kick being the main thing. What I was doing last night though, and it works real well, is layering a click from another kick drum on top and putting a boom from another kick under. If you adjust the envelopes right it works a lot better. I use a super tight envlope for the click....I used to try this with hp and lp EQ, but the filters are a must. I was looking at the transient to make sure it was spiking right the whole time, which really helps. It is easy to see phasing this way. The different drum sounds, when stacked really tightly, can make an awesome kick combined together. Im going to save all this stuff as a template once I nail it because the kicks are getting huge and I am not using EQ or compression, plus nothing is clipping.

I think the final element of detail is really down to moving those ADHSR knobs on the filters of the drums.. I really think making them suck in an out is what sends a beat to the next level. I am trying to modulate in Battery using that tab, but I can't seem to map it out right just yet. It sounds like if you mess with the attack or decay you can get the drums to move how you want. I just need to figure it out.