prophet '08 oscillator bleed normal?

[ohmicide]

i contacted DSI about some artifacts i was hearing in my prophet '08 and they said it was normal

here's what they said

checked out your sound clips and what you are hearing is normal. It is an artifact of the analog free-running oscillators. Basically, the oscillators are constantly well, oscillating, and when you press a key it opens the envelope so you can hear it. This means that unlike digital, you don't open the envelopes at a zero-crossing or silent point every time. Fortunately, if the filter is all the way closed you aren't really getting any sound through it anyway so it is a relative non-issue. Let me know if you have any other questions.

this can be worked around but i still find it pretty annoying

here's an example of the 'fusion bass' patch, one clip is unprocessed and the other has some compression on it which brings the artifact up front

has anyone ever heard this artifact before with other analog synthesizers?

[Popbott]

I hear the artifact on the second note. When that same note repeats on the sixth note, it is not there. Kind of annoying really, almost like a TB-303 like accent hitting your note there. DSI's explanation makes sense, and I have run into these kinds of quirks from time to time on my analogs and my VA's. Reminds me of the time I had to Autotune a track I printed from my Korg MS2000 or another time I had to adjust my Voyager's MIDI time clock, tons of other times I had to "fix" something from time to time. I would find this anomaly a characteristic of your DSI analog synth.

[ohmicide]

well if i close the filter all the way or set the release a bit higher (or closed all the way) on that patch the artifact is pretty much gone, but i find it pretty annoying nonetheless

[ohmicide]

anyone?

[PeteJames]

He's an email discussion I had with Jered, the designer and maker of Future Retro synths, regarding oscillator bleed:

"Synthesizers have oscillators and other noise generating sources that are always happening inside the box. Due to the nature of analog circuits, and the high gain stages used in circuits such as the filter section, it is natural for some of the oscillator signals to bleed into the filter even though all mixer levels are turned down. The procedure in our Tips and Tricks Addendum will provide all the information you need to get best signal to noise ratio when using individual oscillators or when filtering external audio.
Thanks,
Jered"

"It really depends on the complexity and design of the synthesizer, on
whether or not this occurs.
Yes it is more likely to occur in any true analog unit... where on digital
synths everything is kept in the digital domain until the final output.
However, even on digital synths you might hear high frequency noise on the
final output due to the high frequency clocking of processors.

In a way it is similar to crosstalk specs of an analog mixer or tape
recorder. Where the signal of one channel can bleed through to other
channels to some degree.

Thanks,
Jered"

I dug these emails out from a year ago because I had no experience of analog synths so your never sure if these 'problems' are normal or not unless your experienced. Perhaps some experienced members can confirm or deny what Jared is saying regarding the nature of analog synths?

[ohmicide]

i know for a fact that i cannot hear the same problem with my little phatty

there is sound at all when the amp envelope is closed unlike the prophet and there's also no artifact after a note is released no matter where the release or filter are set to

[Dubai]

ive heard bleed in the internal mixer of a LinnDrum LM-2
but not in the independent outs.

solution was to use a better external mixer,
mackie cr1604 was ok.
but i had low quality cables that gave me nightmares.

dont remeber ever heard any bleed in juno-60, matrix-1000, or arp 2600
juno-60 chorus was noisy, but that was all.
ARP was semi modular, so any matrix issue could be bypassed.
....
i dont beleive that high voltage crap.
its not like they are running at 600v inside.
24v is not high voltage.

ive heard bleed in multi track tape machines usually 8/16/24 tracks 1/4 or 1/2 tape, when recording a signal HOT,
but none in decent mixers.

in some machines bleed happen becouse overloading signals, but in others its just bad design.

i think bleed its also called crosstalk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosstalk_(electronics)
Crosstalk measurement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

maybe....
usign clean power, and shielded cables could help with crosstalk.

try Furman Clear tone technology, voltage regulators or balancer power IT with LiFT.
or DC blocker, psaudio humbuster 3.

could be other machine in your studio (pc, lights, etc...) creating some interference.

try usign also transformer isolation in the audio lines, like DI box or something.
i remember having a Dj mixer, when the headphone out was making short circuit, the whole mixer had a 100% bleed in the crossfader, i purchased new faders thinking it was the faders, but it was not the faders, was the headphones.
= bleed can also be a short circuit.

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by Dubai

but in others its just bad design.

i honestly think this is the case with the prophet

[Dubai]

Originally Posted by alehoe

well if i close the filter all the way or set the release a bit higher (or closed all the way) on that patch the artifact is pretty much gone, but i find it pretty annoying nonetheless

some synths have issues with too fast AR envelopes.

[PeteJames]

After having my prophet 08 a week and getting over the 'new gear rush' I started to test it out a bit more. I seem to get:

1) Oscillator leak even when the oscillators are off and the noise is fully down

2) Filter leak - even when the oscillators are fully off, and filter is fully closed with no res

3) I can hear the envelopes loudly with the osc off and filter closed

I'm not sure if it should be like that, if it should bother me etc. When do you ever need the vco's off and the filter fully closed? If you want minimal silence just don't press the keys ;-)

What did you decide to do about it? I've still got a couple of weeks to decide whether to keep it or not. I really enjoy programming it and love the flexibility - it can do pretty much anything with all it's lfo's, sequencing, envelopes, osc, and polyphony! It does cool 'delays' and the VCA volume seems to make infinite reverb - i'm not sure what the VCA volume is all about actually.

About the sound - It can sound warm with the filter lowered. I'd describe the overall character as really punchy. It can also get harsh if that's what you want, perhaps a bit much sometimes but it's always gonna cut through the mix - no danger there . It can very modern, precise and cutting. I've never had a vintage synth but I expect it's not that vintage sounding overall even though it does vintage patches really well.

[gdh]

Originally Posted by PeteJames

It can very modern, precise and cutting. I've never had a vintage synth but I expect it's not that vintage sounding overall even though it does vintage patches really well.

I think this is exactly what Dave had in mind with the P08 that it is its own synth has its own character and is not trying to emulate every vintage poly. Those of us who played these vintage synths when they were new never thought of how to make an OBX sound like a P5 or JP8 or MM or CS80 and vice versa they all had their own sound character, strenghts and weaknesses. I think that with all of the digital emulations of vintage gear that we tend to forget that there are ppl who do not want another emulation of the past that they would like something with its own character. As I and many others have stated if the Dave had not used the Prophet name I don't believe that this synth would have come under the same amt. of criticism. Dave himself had said that it was not made to replicate the P5. I like it because it does not sound just like a P5 or OBXa or JP8 or ...... Back in the 70's we really tried to design (program) new and different sounds, never entered my mind that my miniD should sound like my B3 or Wurli or for that fact an actual flute or trumpet etc. We were looking for something different and unique has this been lost?? do we really all want to sound the same or is everyone here just intent on sounding like the greats from the past. I can do things on the P08 or A6 that you could only dream of on much of the vintage gear, these modern analogues are in relative terms very inexpensive. It is kind of depressing to think that with all this modern gear ppl are constipated over why modern synth A cannot sound exactly like a 25 - 35 yr old synth B, but then again I'm old, cranky glad to be able to afford to do what I want when I want and not to have to hit the road again. A young player and programmer that I know, Brian Kehew, speaks highly of these new analogues. He is a vintage collector but appreciates these new synths for their individual sound character vs their ability to emulate vintage gear. If you want a JP8 save and buy one, very rare will it be that you are truely satisfied with a modern poly that you will work hard to program it to sound exactly like a JP8. Now if you want a CS80 search your Craigslists etc for an Electone E70, with any luck you will be able to pick one up for a few hundred $ just ignore all the wood surrounding the synth inside.

[jddrews]

Originally Posted by gdh

I think this is exactly what Dave had in mind with the P08 that it is its own synth has its own character and is not trying to emulate every vintage poly. Those of us who played these vintage synths when they were new never thought of how to make an OBX sound like a P5 or JP8 or MM or CS80 and vice versa they all had their own sound character, strenghts and weaknesses. I think that with all of the digital emulations of vintage gear that we tend to forget that there are ppl who do not want another emulation of the past that they would like something with its own character. As I and many others have stated if the Dave had not used the Prophet name I don't believe that this synth would have come under the same amt. of criticism. Dave himself had said that it was not made to replicate the P5. I like it because it does not sound just like a P5 or OBXa or JP8 or ...... Back in the 70's we really tried to design (program) new and different sounds, never entered my mind that my miniD should sound like my B3 or Wurli or for that fact an actual flute or trumpet etc. We were looking for something different and unique has this been lost?? do we really all want to sound the same or is everyone here just intent on sounding like the greats from the past. I can do things on the P08 or A6 that you could only dream of on much of the vintage gear, these modern analogues are in relative terms very inexpensive. It is kind of depressing to think that with all this modern gear ppl are constipated over why modern synth A cannot sound exactly like a 25 - 35 yr old synth B, but then again I'm old, cranky glad to be able to afford to do what I want when I want and not to have to hit the road again. A young player and programmer that I know, Brian Kehew, speaks highly of these new analogues. He is a vintage collector but appreciates these new synths for their individual sound character vs their ability to emulate vintage gear. If you want a JP8 save and buy one, very rare will it be that you are truely satisfied with a modern poly that you will work hard to program it to sound exactly like a JP8. Now if you want a CS80 search your Craigslists etc for an Electone E70, with any luck you will be able to pick one up for a few hundred $ just ignore all the wood surrounding the synth inside.

Nicely put. I'm now coming to that understanding about the P08. I'm just trying to exploit what it does and make that work with whatever music I'm recording. I really appreciate what it sounds like.

[DntBelievtheHype]

I get that same noise/artifact is a couple settings; my primary use of my pedalboard is a synth for my bass guitar, and when using the MP-201 to control a MoogLPF or MS-20 filter clone, there is a high pitched whine at a certain point in the sweep(cutoff somewhere under 100hz), and obviously the filter resonance increases the sound- this is the same pitch that is heard in the artifacts in the posted clip above.

The osc's are free-running when used with a MIDI keyboard, so I use the Ringmod as VCA. These artifacts are most noticeable when using a dry ADSR envelope from the MP, and there is a bit of bleed through the VCA even when resting at 0v. Its regular 5v gate doesn't really work because the Ringmod starts closing past 2.5v when used as VCA, but there is a workaround(or maybe just the 'correct' operation); Sending the MP201's Gate to the CP251 to attenuate to -2.5v cures the bleed and gives dead silence between notes, and then the lag processor can control the attack/decay for artifact-free operation. Using the Envelopes instead of the Gate with this method can cure the artifacts as well (and of course you get the sustain and release control), though I haven't spent as much time fiddling with the adsr in this configuration yet.

Anyway, im not sure how it all relates exactly, but the short answer is that yes I do experience the same artifacts with my analog synth in some settings, though fortunately they are not noticeable in most settings when solo'd, and the marjority of the time any artifacts that are present get lost in the mix. You can also hear the same artifacts in a few parts of this link posted by someone in another thread earlier: http://www.dsisynth.com/audio/mopho_...pho_basses.mp3

[shadowfac]

Just spent a few minutes with my P08 module.

I turned off both oscillators, left the filter fully open and set up a sustained amp envelope. I pressed a few keys and didn't hear a thing. Turned the volume on my mixer all the way up. Nothing. Messed up with the oscs tuning and waveform. No sound whatsoever.

Then I turned on the oscillators, closed the filter and pressed a key. Nothing again. Switched to 2-pole. Nada.

Finally, I left both oscillators on, opened the filter all the way up, and set the amp envelope depth to zero. Hit a key and heard nothing.

Then I realized I hadn't turn my monitors on.


haha........ just kidding. nah, my monitors and mixer were both on. I was playing with some patches before doing this experiment. But I can confirm there it no noticeable bleeding on my P08. Not from the oscs, not from the filter, not from the amplifier. I don't "hear" the envelopes clicking or any other strange artifacts. I've noticed the envelopes closing abruptly sometimes, but the problem disappears by adjusting the release.

Not sure if that helps or not.

[e6400ultra]

I get a crap ton of filter bleed on my P08. i.e., close the filter and there's still sound coming out.

I've come to the conclusion that DSI use poorly made chips with widely varying tolerances.

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by shadowfac

Just spent a few minutes with my P08 module.

I turned off both oscillators, left the filter fully open and set up a sustained amp envelope. I pressed a few keys and didn't hear a thing. Turned the volume on my mixer all the way up. Nothing. Messed up with the oscs tuning and waveform. No sound whatsoever.

Then I turned on the oscillators, closed the filter and pressed a key. Nothing again. Switched to 2-pole. Nada.

Finally, I left both oscillators on, opened the filter all the way up, and set the amp envelope depth to zero. Hit a key and heard nothing.

Then I realized I hadn't turn my monitors on.


haha........ just kidding. nah, my monitors and mixer were both on. I was playing with some patches before doing this experiment. But I can confirm there it no noticeable bleeding on my P08. Not from the oscs, not from the filter, not from the amplifier. I don't "hear" the envelopes clicking or any other strange artifacts. I've noticed the envelopes closing abruptly sometimes, but the problem disappears by adjusting the release.

Not sure if that helps or not.

it's kinda hard to hear any of the bleed issues with monitors unless i throw some distortion or compression on it. it's also easier to hear it with headphones.

[Stabby]

I'm still not sure what this is about. Is it about the silent clicky sound? I had that with my Mopho.

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by Stabby

I'm still not sure what this is about. Is it about the silent clicky sound? I had that with my Mopho.

yes, the high pitched clicky sound

[Stabby]

Originally Posted by alehoe

yes, the high pitched clicky sound

Yeah, it's a bit louder on the Mopho. Check this. I recorded it with no processing involved.

[ohmicide]

this bug makes it pretty annoying to make good kicks, i have to keep going around it by adjusting the release but i guess i can deal with it. this thing makes better drum sounds than my little phatty.

Originally Posted by Stabby

Yeah, it's a bit louder on the Mopho. Check this. I recorded it with no processing involved.

holy crap that sound annoying!

[shadowfac]

I think that's the tradeoff with analog gear, you have to deal with noise, bleeding, clicky envelopes, whatever. My dotcom modular can sound huge compared to my other gear, but it's also much noisier, especially the reverb. I don't mind too much. I just insert a gate plugin after recording. But I can see how it could be annoying, especially if you add lots of distortion which raise the noise floor.

Re: Prophet 08 drums - yes! this is a great synth for analog percussion, not in the punchy 808/909 way but in the crazy modular-esque sequence way. It can even do some decent FM percussions using filter audio mod and fast LFO's.

[PeteJames]

Originally Posted by shadowfac

Just spent a few minutes with my P08 module.

I turned off both oscillators, left the filter fully open and set up a sustained amp envelope. I pressed a few keys and didn't hear a thing. Turned the volume on my mixer all the way up. Nothing. Messed up with the oscs tuning and waveform. No sound whatsoever.

Then I turned on the oscillators, closed the filter and pressed a key. Nothing again. Switched to 2-pole. Nada.

Finally, I left both oscillators on, opened the filter all the way up, and set the amp envelope depth to zero. Hit a key and heard nothing.

Then I realized I hadn't turn my monitors on.


haha........ just kidding. nah, my monitors and mixer were both on. I was playing with some patches before doing this experiment. But I can confirm there it no noticeable bleeding on my P08. Not from the oscs, not from the filter, not from the amplifier. I don't "hear" the envelopes clicking or any other strange artifacts. I've noticed the envelopes closing abruptly sometimes, but the problem disappears by adjusting the release.

Not sure if that helps or not.

Lol, made me dfegad myself anyway. It does. I may send mine back and try and hope my next doesn't have bleed - seems a long shot though - the bleed seems to notch up -30 to -40 db on my ableton faders

[shadowfac]

Originally Posted by PeteJames

Lol, made me dfegad myself anyway. It does. I may send mine back and try and hope my next doesn't have bleed - seems a long shot though - the bleed seems to notch up -30 to -40 db on my ableton faders

Before you send it back...

I tested mine yesterday with headphones, and the bleeding is definitely there. The oscillators bleed when they're turned on, but not when I turn them off. Oscillator 1 bleeds even if osc mix is set to osc 2 only.

There's also bleeding from the noise source, which unfortunately cannot be turned off.

If I turn the cutoff all the way down, the bleeding disappears, so there's no bleeding from the filter's input signal.

With the cutoff at zero, I press some keys and can hear the envelope clicking, but only if attack and release are set to zero... with slightly longer attack and release the clicking disappears.

So, all in all, I don't think these are serious issues. The oscillators bleed a little into the filter, but they can be turned completely off. The clicky envelopes can be avoided by adjusting their parameters. The "worst" issue is that I cannot turn the nosie source completely off, but it's not noticeable in most cases. My ESQ-1 was much noisier, and it didn't even have a noise source! Any older poly analog is likely to be noisier and have more technical faults than the P08.

To be honest, these issues, while may be annoying for some, are a very small price to pay for such flexibility and modern features.

[gdh]

I found the same as you shadow in regards to filter bleed. Now I do find the 2 pole filter very week on this synth, if I could only drop the original 3320 CEM 2 pole into this synth I would be extatic! I have been thinking of adding one or more from here: Filter Bank2,
he did say that he is looking at the OB 2 pole filter as well, hopefully it will happen.