Industrial Music Techniques?

[target_destroyed]

Go to this site - Industrial 101 (where Susceptor's quotes are from) and this site - Insta Rivethead Kit
You will automatically be industrial after reading through both.

[Robobaby]

Aside from the jokes, there is only ONE rule to idustrial... GO BERSERK!! Feel free to experiment, do weird shit that no one else bothered to do before. Also, NEVER listen to dumb debates like PC vs Mac, analog vs digital, software vs hardware; just try and create what you hear in your mind, regardless of the means used to achieve that.

Pretty much this.

The whole point of Industrial in the beginning was that it was working class (hence the name). It required no special skills and no specialised equipment to create. It was meant to be inclusive - an activity that lots of people can join in from all walks of life, not exclusive which is why this thread is so hilariously ironic.

If you listen to any of the stuff on Industrial Records you will work out pretty fast that it ain't music (i.e. Hamburger Lady) or its a very amateur attempt at music (i.e. United, not the sped up version). The only way I can describe it is that Industrial was to popular music what Dada and Modernism was to Classical art: an attempt to breakdown and subvert classical ideas of form and beauty, to reject standards in technique and composition and to remake them anew. To allow anybody to get involved in making music, not just a privileged few.

The first round of Industrial artists have direct association with Industrial Records or released records through them like SPK and Cabaret Voltaire. Where it gets confusing is that these folks didn't always stick to the Industrial manifesto and both of them I guess you could say 'sold out'. Both started making synth pop and Cabaret Voltaire at least became quite successful doing that. But Cabaret Voltaire used to make stuff like Eastern Mantra and thats the part of them that has the direct connection to Industrial. Graeme Revell you may remember from the Sin City soundtrack (and quite a few other movie soundtracks). He was an SPK founding member and the beginning of his soundtrack work you can trace back to Zamia Lehmanni. You can hear the past influence of Industrial Records but by that point, SPK was something else entirely.

Then there were the bands that were born from the collapse of Industrial Records in or around 1983 like Psychic TV and later Coil. Industrial Records had to die because it had become something of an institution and somewhat exclusive. Some folks like Christopherson were never really happy with the direction it was going and Psychic TV in particular turned into (I guess you could say) a gigantic troll with that Temple of Psychic Youth bullshit. He jumped ship to form Coil with John Balance.

Coil started with the ideas behind alchemy and magic - this idea of turning 'shit into gold' or something mundane and ordinary into something extraordinary through an alchemical process. Coil was the search for the philosopher's stone but in 'musical' form and the way they did it was not always to do with music or sound at all. They used to do things like handmake the packaging for some of their records in very small numbers so they became these priceless relics for Coil fans. Like turning shit into gold. If you are interested in abstraction in music you should definitely check out Coil because they are amazing, not just for what they sound like but because of the philosophy behind it and because of how humble it is. Some folks say Coil is Post Industrial like Post Modernism is to Modernism, a rejection of but also a continuation of what came before it. I don't really think it makes sense to pigeon hole things like that though.

After that theres alot of bands which take influences from Industrial and the creative philosophy behind it, then incorporate it into their own musical or anti musical context. I think NIN were really tight with Coil at one stage what with Christopherson directing the Broken and March of the Pigs videos for NIN (which really pushed the line in terms of what is socially acceptable in popular music). This is just another necessary step in the creative process which happens to be reinterpretation and recombination. Without that everything stays the same, everything stagnates, everything dies. I mean I like some of the old Industrial stuff like Slogun and I still find some of it interesting but I'm more interested in where people are taking the influence now. Where they are mixing it up with things that the original guys didn't think of and didn't intend.

So the original question is kind of loaded. Industrial always was part philosophy so W-W-Int is pretty close to the mark. Remember how Industrial started and what made it what it is. The absence of form and technique. Just go nuts with whatever you have around you and let it happen. Later you can reinterpret it, reuse it, recycle it, re-evaluate it (in a musical context if you wish). That doesn't mean that you just make random shit and call it a day. It means that for a moment you don't let your lack of skill and lack of expensive gear hinder you from creating something that matters. It also means that for a moment, you suspend your idea of what makes music 'music' and just run with what you have. See where it goes.

Part of it is also to do with Coil's philosophy I guess you could say. Unrealworld82 gets it because hes done it and I know what hes talking about. Its about taking mundane sounds, anything, one shot samples, movie clips, and mundane synth buzzing noises and through keen interest and experimentation, turning these sounds into something that moves and which is alive. Its necessarily DIY. When you think about it, alot of DIY music gets that from Industrial. Dance music, Hip Hop etc. All of that is homebrew all the way but the difference is that these have become institutions with rules of form and they have become somewhat exclusive in a way.

[Robobaby]

Oh yeah, alot of music that people refer to as Ambient or Dark Ambient usually has strong associations with Industrial. You get for example stuff like Zoviet France since those guys don't really make songs or music. They kind of make evocative noises and drones that make you feel or think of something in particular. I really like Zoviet France but its not really anything in particular. I also like some of the guys influenced by or continuing this approach to writing music like Thomas Koner (I dunno how to do the double dot above the o). He moves the whole thing off sound and into sound and moving pictures so its a completely different experience and it changes how you think about it and what music is capable of being.

[Numinamusic]

Interesting thread. As a long time "industrial" music listener and taking off from what the OP referenced to NIN being the style, I would say what he's looking for is the more danceable goth-industrial style a la Bigod20, :W:, Velvet Acid Christ, Skinny Puppy (pre Last Rights), Revolting Cocks (Beers Steer Queers and earlier), Mentallo & the Fixer, FLA, Front242, Nitzer Ebb, Clock DVA (Buried Dreams), Ministry (Twitch), and yeah, early NIN... Anyway I would like to see anyone truly devoted to making a decent industrial record use a lot of hardware and learning to sequence properly and mix in raw and mangled samples. Start off by getting yourself an MC-909 or ESX-1 to cover the ability to sample and use its internal drum kits and synth sounds, add some gates to bass and snare hits, use some dark pads and leads, and sing about how ****ed up life is.

BTW, I don't agree with "going berserk". To me a solid industrial track should be structured and rhythmically appealing. I'm not referring to experimental industrial here that's different.

J.

[Susceptor]

Originally Posted by Numinamusic

BTW, I don't agree with "going berserk". To me a solid industrial track should be structured and rhythmically appealing. I'm not referring to experimental industrial here that's different.
J.

I'm sorry for being confusing. By going berserk I meant to do whatever you feel like, enjoy your music and ideas and try new stuff, but still in the musical way, not the "record white noise, give it a name and you have a track" way. I hope this cleared things up.

[Robobaby]

Yes. I took 'going berzerk' to mean not feeling inhibited. To not feel as if you have any limitations or rules of form that you need to abide by. To not feel as if you can't achieve something because you dont have <insert technical expertise here> and <insert gear here>.

[Numinamusic]

Originally Posted by Robobaby

Yes. I took 'going berzerk' to mean not feeling inhibited. To not feel as if you have any limitations or rules of form that you need to abide by. To not feel as if you can't achieve something because you dont have <insert technical expertise here> and <insert gear here>.

I see. This is a fundamental approach with industrial music - to experiment with sound design and push the limits for sure.

J.

[bartholomewpro]

Originally Posted by Susceptor

Aside from the jokes, there is only ONE rule to idustrial... GO BERSERK!! Feel free to experiment, do weird shit that no one else bothered to do before. Also, NEVER listen to dumb debates like PC vs Mac, analog vs digital, software vs hardware; just try and create what you hear in your mind, regardless of the means used to achieve that.


In case of doubt, distort (when you'll get a grip of how to make music you'll distort only when necessary)

I like this!

ok right now im running an ableton DJ set live with vocals. I dont make much money. I also have a micro korg. does anyone have advice for live gear and setups for one man shows with vocals. as far samplers and synths. i mean ableton sounds good for the beats and stuff but it might be nice to have a synth and if it really makes a diffrence trigger the samples from a sampler rather then ableton. I record all my samples in my studio so im not recording directly into it. **** man i dunno. what are some good places to start?????

[gregwar]

Originally Posted by bartholomewpro

what are some good places to start?????

just experiment and be yourself. then let the material get lumped into genres after by other people. you can wear leather pants and do lots of drugs but its not really necessary. try this: record a sound experiment track for 20+ minutes, save it, listen to it, edit out the best parts. repeat. then you'll have 'samples' to layer, mangle, etc. use gear that you like and have fun destroying, twisting and playing with sound.

a kaoss pad 3 is a good example, might work for you. i also like the jomox t-rezonator, sherman filterbank, etc. just don't blow your speakers. one day my pc was destroyed moving across the country. i had was 2 synths, some pedals, a drum machine, a dj mixer and some pedals. the mixer would become a feedback matrix, i'd record radio noise interference, tv, effect loops, synth sounds, records, vhs, sax, etc. onto cassette tapes. process it, etc.

just be creative with your sound sources. then cut, pasted and layer it all in your computer, make loops, etc. don't compromise. this is a good way to make a wealth of material and enjoy yourself. once you have more practice with your gear and whatnot you'll get lots of ideas. then the sounds you think up will get closer and closer to the sounds you make until you can just whip up any sound you imagine. my 2c

[zosthegoatherd]

Drugs and leather pants plus some cheap synths and the right attitude is cheaper and more fun then buying gear to try and match the sound of a band. On the other hand one of the nice things about industrial music is a lot of it was made with cheaper non hyped gear.

[bartholomewpro]

DUDE THAT T-resonater is soooooooo tight!!! WHERE DO I GET ONE!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?

[target_destroyed]

Originally Posted by bartholomewpro

DUDE THAT T-resonater is soooooooo tight!!! WHERE DO I GET ONE!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?

Nova Musik- The Electronic Musician's Wonderland.
a n a l o g u e h a v e n , p o m o n a , c a

[bekenone]

Originally Posted by zosthegoatherd

Nobody can agree on what industrial is, was, or should be. Granted most scenes are like that, but it seems industrial music fans take pride in developing their own list of what constitutes industrial. Going back to the original topic....
Mangling sounds with samplers/filters/distortion is a good start. Experimenting with non-standard arrangements/composition helps. Instead of thinking in terms of drum, baseline, pad, lead, etc. try using different parts of the audio spectrum to carry the melody. In quite a few "industrial" songs the lower voice "bass" instrument caries the main melody, while the higher portion of the spectrum may alternate between a voice elaborating/mirroring the main theme and pads or noises/samples.
As for getting a sound closer to NIN, buy some '80's gear, listen to skinny puppy, chase Al Jurgensen around, and get Adrian Sherwood to teach you to mix.

yep.
early "real EBM", "Experimental" stuff mixed together with a "strict case of Aesthetics" is true Industrial.
the off shoots are focused on one style of Industrial.
Its A matter of following what path you like or be A jedi and Be true to the style....which is hard to do now a days if you don't follow a certain path.
but by alllll means Industrial is and will always be a Aesthetic based form of music.
In time you'll figure what style works for you.
giving respect to programming styles is like Blues music in Industrial.
for example:
the drive or Bass Programming of "FrontLine Assembly", the Rhythmic flow of "Front242" the Vocal Arrogance and sublime flow of "Skinny Puppy" to the Etheric Air of "Mentalo and The Fixer", the Metal zone very non Punk flow of "Ministry", all the way to the Dark haunting Bad Trip Nightmares of "Brighter Death Now" and "Deutsch Nepal"

[bakerman]

Sherman Filterbank. Have one and love it for processing everything for that industrial vibe

[rayzr]

Definitely do not do what anyone else is doing.

Exist outside of scenes and labels.

Learn as much as you can about nearly everything.

Be self sufficient.

Basically everything Trent Reznor said in his latest interview. (you saw it, didn't you?)

[Dysanfel]

Originally Posted by bartholomewpro

I am very interested in industrial music and was wondering if anyone had tips for me for production.

This is only because you mention Reznor, since NIN is not really industrial in my mind.....

1) Listen to WaxTrax releases from 1980s.

2) Get your hands on a drum machine, a synth, a sampler, and a few different guitar pedals that includes an overdrive/distortion.

3) Get your hands on a portable recorder (flash, DAT, cassette...whatever) and go out into the world and bang on shit and record it.

4) import your sounds into your sampler. Trigger it/record it/mangle it with your gear into your favorite DAW.

5) Forget everything and do it differently

[metrosonus]

industrial is just like punk.. it's all an attitude.

So I agree with all that's been said so far..

however... the problem is and most people fail to understand this and completely distort and mutilate this.. is that it's also supposed to be fun.

Look closely at the lyrics on KMFDM light, read through the sisters of mercy webpage, do some research on the KLF and on and on..

All of those people kicked ass and had a great time doing it.



If you can't see how utterly bizarre and fun this is, you probably don't get punk or industrial.

[darthtrader]

Take this as the current litmus and try to top it..

[modularjack]

Moog basslines are a pretty prominent feature of his early work. I have also seen him smash Yamaha DX-7s on stage.. that was many years ago though.

[foodeater]

You have logic studio and Ableton Live? If so between all the other gear you listed you really don't need anything else to get started.

What part of the process are you stuck on? Feedbackback loops with either software or hardware will get you a lot of the sound you are after. Reznor's take on the industrial sound is heavy effects experimentation and then editing it down. He also has (arguably) a strong ear for composition and that's just practice, practice, practice and uh practice.

He also sampled a lot. There's no shame in it. Closer takes it's rhythm from the great Iggy Pop song Night Clubbing.

I have a feeling you are overwhelmed by too much gear. Start with say the microkorg and live/logic and slowly re-integrate. Learning how effects work digitally is way easier at first. Reznor started with a small amount to tools far less powerful than what you have.

As far as software goes: Audiomulch + Reaktor(use the user library) would be a great additions eventually. It'd make a great freeform environment that's conductive to making interesting sounds. Make sounds chop em up and sequence in Logic/Live. The sounds you want are all about pushing your gear to extremes and really anything can work.
Here are some nice freebies:
Oligarc | Stillwell Audio - It's About The Sound (I do highly recommend this plug in + get the others they make at a later date. not 100% free, but good for learning)
Insert Piz Here - Mr. Alias 2
Bram.Smartelectronix.Com
Destroy FX : free VST plugins, free Audio Units
FREE PLUGINS!

Are you looking to use less software?

Hardware-wise on the cheap a Korg monotron could be nice. Beyond that you have to have a budget and once you get a grasp on how to do things you'll be better able to decide what you need on your own.
-----
I can't get into Reznors lyrics nowadays, but he still does great sound design. I don't think all the money he's thrown at it has changed his sound that much.

I'm not sure why he gets lumped in with the industrial acts that were pretty much straight dance beats with heavy distortion. Many nin song are in odd time signatures.

Semantics arguments are kinda futile. "Industrial music for industrial people" may have been how it started, but times change, that's gone and it's not coming back. A lot of those industrial guys were art students anyway. Die antword is keeping with a similar philosophy.

[Rust Creep]

industrial is and has always been about doing your own thing, your own way

you could incorporate music theory or say **** theory and just find your own way

you could do anything

its about experimentation

the more you learn about different techniques... musical, recording, production, etc, the more you'll be able to experiment and try your own things

to me.. industrial is about forging your own identity... you can use formulas or not... it doesn't really matter what you do


if this post has been useless to you.. then just run everything to different distortions... overdriven filters, bit crushers, sample rate reducers, etc, be an animal rights activist and use **** imagery ironically

[MixedSignals]

..and don't forget- deconstructionism.

[Headphones]

Use ring mod when possible. Really twist and tear apart your sounds..

High Pass Filters might be better than Low Pass Filters for some sounds, but you can decide on that one. If you think a LPF is what a certain sound needs to trim some of the fat off, then go for it.

Get some compressors, (software/hardware), and experiment. It should be possible to really bring to life some sounds and push them into the listener's face, but don't over do it to where it's unlistenable on somebody's car speakers.

Try to not copy other bands/artists too much, but figure out what works for you. Different scales, odd chords, and different time signatures. Don't just follow trends from Hot Topic, but try to come up with ideas that you're wanting to go with. Find any other musicians who share your ideas if you can.

Find cheap gear, and mod it if possible. If you're not good with electronics, find somebody who is. Have the person you're having do the handywork to come up with the most crazy sounds ever. Nothing too clean, nothing too recognizable. That will give you a sound nobody else does. If it's not possible to mod your equipment, then just plug them into cheap guitar pedals.

[Crawling Wind]

If you get your wee-wee pierced, all the seeckrets of Industrial musickz are magickally revealed to you. Ov kourse...