Getting started electronic music

[bartholomewpro]

Ok so heres what im working with a Logic 9 Daw setup some nice pres on a symphony setup(if that helps at all)

Im new to electronic music. Im pretty good with midi but im jut sick of the logic midi setup and the lack of fatness and sounds that suit me.
I Have been scouring the internet for answers but all i get is propaganda!!!!

So of coarse i turn to the wealth of knowledge on gearslutz!
Im 18 and frankly just ignorant so i will gladly read any advice you guys have for me!




bands that i try to emulate:
passion pit
justice
MSTRKRFT
MGMT
Postal Service
Phoenix
Basically i just want that fat dance sound.
Im considering hard synths because i wanna play live as well but they are expensive and im not convinced soft synths are noticeably "weaker" or worse or whatever...

1. HARD SYNTH v. SOFT SYNTH(recommendations?)

2. Live Proformance??

Nintedo Nes Samples:8 bit sounds are so hard to find...

also how do you modualte samples in logic to build whole keyboards of one sample?


Bartholomew production
Bartholomewpro@yahoo.com

[ignatius]

"Im 18 and frankly just ignorant so i will gladly read any advice you guys have for me!"

your honesty is refreshing.

i think you may just be expecting too much too fast. i don't know how long you've been getting your hands dirty and trying to produce songs but it takes a while to find your sound and learn how to 'listen' and craft sounds... and also learn how to mix a song.

first, i'd say learn logic. read the manuals. it's easy to make any sound into a sampler instrument. i think you can just right click on an audio file in the arrange page and select "create sampler instrument" then you'll have a midi track and you can go from there.

hardware is another ball of wax. many love it (i do) and many are plenty happy just using the computer and get good results that way. i think it's typical that most producers embrace all the tools and end up using what is comfortable to them and what they know. a hardware/software debate would not get you anywhere right now as your needs i think are different for this thread.

just read a lot. try different things. sample sounds and resample them. process, layer and reprocess..

i'd say it would be wise to start building your own sound/sample library as you learn. make synth patches w/the plug ins in logic, make your own effects presets.. learn some tricks w/editing in the arrange page and just be a little patient.

but i can't stress enough how good it is to have your own library of samples that you've processed and made your own.

that's how i started.. just learning how to make sounds i liked and tweak them until i was happy and then i'd save them for later.

there are some books around about mixing and acoustics etc. use the search function here and you'll find a lot of info about whatever questions you have. it's very helpful that way.

happy hunting..

[Barfunkel]

That fatness comes from long hours of practicing production techniques, there is no magic fatness box. There's gear that helps, but unless you know how to use they aren't of much use. Learn the basics of synthesis, composing, mixing, etc first, if you can't make a decent sound with some free VST's, you sure as hell can't make a decent sounding track with anything else either.

Also, don't worry that much about fatness at first, half of that comes from professional mastering anyway. Aim for clear sounding tracks with a nice structure, the first mistake beginners usually make is put too much stuff everywhere, which results a muddy mix and a boring track because all the bits are sounding all the time and the track doesn't move anywhere. Just because you can have a 100 tracks of everything doesn't mean you should have so many.

A good starting point is a pack of 909 samples plus a few VST's for a synth bass sound and some melodies and chords and mix them using Logic's EQ and compression. Before you can knock out something decent with those, you probably shouldn't invest on anything else, especially not hardware synths. If you don't know exactly what you need buying expensive synths is waste of money, one great synth might suit you, another might not, before you have lots of experience you're basically spending a 1000 bucks blindfolded, hoping that an expensive piece of kit magically makes you more professional. It doesn't, it just makes you poorer. Make about a 100 tracks with Logic first, then think what exactly your music needs that Logic can't do, then go through every possible piece of information about the interesting pieces of gear and hopefully test it before you buy. Most gear, and especially most great gear, is relatively simple, they do one thing very well and that's what you pay for. There is no super gear that does everything, you need to assess what exactly it is that you lack, and make precise purchases.

Also, I'd stay away from the cheapest end of (new) gear, it'll probably sound a lot worse than an even cheaper VST-synth and end up gathering dust.

[Yoozer]

8 bit stuff is not hard to find. See YMCK Official Web Site or Plogue chipsounds : The most complete chip sound emulator | Plogue.com . However, you can emulate this with a lot of synths, even the ones built in Logic. The artists you name are sample based in a lot of cases, though.

Hardware synths won't fix your mix for you. Learn to mix.

Hardware vs software is a question you should not worry about right now. Also, by making it a "x versus y" you deny yourself the advantages of both. Get to know your software first.

I would hold off performing live until you know your setup better. Check Ableton Live- but that is another application with another learning curve.

[controlvoltage]

Originally Posted by Barfunkel

there is no magic fatness box.

HOW DARE YOU SAY SUCH THINGS!!
here, of all places...

otherwise, excellent advice.

[alexp]

First off....

Thank you for your honesty! You have no idea how much I respect that!!

I cant answer your Logic questions, but if your looking for a couple of synths for big fat analogue sounds on the cheap, I have to recommend the Roland JX3P and the Oberheim Matrix 6. Both synths are capable of a ton of sounds, and are still fairly inexpensive! I love Passion Pit, and both those synths can get similar sounds..... Its good to just get something and dive right in! If you have any other questions, ask away... Myself and a few super cool guys on here are here to help you out!


Good luck!!

alexP

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by ignatius

"Im 18 and frankly just ignorant so i will gladly read any advice you guys have for me!"

your honesty is refreshing.

i think you may just be expecting too much too fast. i don't know how long you've been getting your hands dirty and trying to produce songs but it takes a while to find your sound and learn how to 'listen' and craft sounds... and also learn how to mix a song.

first, i'd say learn logic. read the manuals. it's easy to make any sound into a sampler instrument. i think you can just right click on an audio file in the arrange page and select "create sampler instrument" then you'll have a midi track and you can go from there.

hardware is another ball of wax. many love it (i do) and many are plenty happy just using the computer and get good results that way. i think it's typical that most producers embrace all the tools and end up using what is comfortable to them and what they know. a hardware/software debate would not get you anywhere right now as your needs i think are different for this thread.

just read a lot. try different things. sample sounds and resample them. process, layer and reprocess..

i'd say it would be wise to start building your own sound/sample library as you learn. make synth patches w/the plug ins in logic, make your own effects presets.. learn some tricks w/editing in the arrange page and just be a little patient.

but i can't stress enough how good it is to have your own library of samples that you've processed and made your own.

that's how i started.. just learning how to make sounds i liked and tweak them until i was happy and then i'd save them for later.

there are some books around about mixing and acoustics etc. use the search function here and you'll find a lot of info about whatever questions you have. it's very helpful that way.

happy hunting..

i think this is the best way to go

i am 19 haha but i started out with electronic music when i was 15 and it took me a like year or so just to learn the basics. i wish would have known about this site when i started, im learning so much from it!

one thing that helped me the most was actually reading computer music, future music, and sound on sound articles and the masterclass and in the studio videos of such. lots of little tips and tricks in there.

after all these years i've actually just started to get analog gear for my electronic music

i don't think you should go out and spend your money on synths right away. you should learn all you can about them and then decide what you need and what you think would fit your workflow.

if you want to play live you can just start with something small and simple like a used korg r3 or just a laptop with a midi controller. logic's synths can actually cover a lot of ground and actually dont sound bad at all.

[Yoozer]

Another few questions now that I can type on a proper keyboard instead of my phone:

Originally Posted by bartholomewpro

Im pretty good with midi but im jut sick of the logic midi setup

In what way?

and the lack of fatness and sounds that suit me.

Well, that's why plugins have knobs. You're supposed to do something with that, you know

also how do you modualte samples in logic to build whole keyboards of one sample?

You don't. The word "modulate" means something different; it means changing something during time. This can happen only once after hitting the keys - that's what an envelope does - or it can happen continuously - which is what an LFO does. The "something" that is changed is the modulation target; what causes the change is the modulation source.

Anyway, back to sampling. Imagine a sampler's setup as a rectangular graph. From left to right, you go from the lowest note to the highest note. From bottom to top, you go from the lowest velocity to the highest velocity. Velocity is the speed you hit your keys with; the reason it's called velocity is because the harder you hit the key the faster the key moves down, and the sensor can only register speed, not force.

See http://www.tweakheadz.com/images/exs-editor.jpg

When you drag or open a sample into EXS24, you can set it up that it stretches the entire keyboard. This is shown in the column Keyrange (Lo/Hi). If you pick Zone #1 and load up your sound, just set Lo to C-1 (minus one) and Hi to C6 or something.

However, what you then get is an (often undesired) side-effect, called the munchkin effect (try doing this with a vocal sample; higher pitches sound like munchkins).

If your sample was that of a single note on a piano, the lowest notes will sound dull, and the highest notes will sound far too bright - plus they'll quit playing. A sampler is nothing but a digital tape recorder, and playing back tape faster means you run out of it faster, too.

If you want to sample realistic instruments, you have to sample them at several pitches so you can mask or eliminate (by sampling each note separately) the munchkin effect. Because the notes were laid out horizontally, it means putting several samples next to eachother, each with their own small key zone.

If we take the piano as an example again, another thing that changes is the character; hit a key on a real piano harder (or a snare drum on a drum kit) and the sound changes; it becomes brighter, more pronounced. So, volume is not the only thing that changes. The solution for this is similar to that of the munchkin effect, only in the vertical direction; you stack samples on top of eachother, telling one to play back only when the velocity of the key is in its range. That's denoted by the Vel. Range in the screenshot above.

If you'd sample a real snare drum, you'd have to sample it several times; even though the actual note is just a single note (keyzone from D2 to D2 for instance) you have multiple velocities to add realism.

The above is classical sampling theory and it's been used to build libraries of realistic instruments. Study the included presets in EXS24 to get an idea.

However, the way Justice uses samples is different again.

As a demo, I've taken a fragment of George Duke's "Love You More" which you may know as "that one track Daft Punk used for Digital Love".

http://www.teartcore.com/music/pogo.mp3

I have chopped this in smaller parts, all the same size. I have removed every second part, and simply copied the first; that gives you the "stu ttering" effect. Justice's technique does not differ a lot from this - just listen to YouTube - The original version of Justice-Phantom. The sample. - it's a beat, bassline and fragments of the original track. The art is in picking the right (obscure) track and revamping it.

The way to do this in EXS is to simply cut down the fragment you want to use, and assign each fragment to a single key. That's by far the easiest way.

edit: argh, stupid smilies ruining things

[timmah]

there's SO much to learn just within logic, don't worry about anything else until you have mastered logic and then you will know what direction you want to go with.

learn the EXS inside and out, and the es1 and es2 synths.
learn how to use eq and compression, and the rest of the fx including distortion.

that should keep you busy for a LONG time.

have fun.

[Oli]

Hi,

I think the advice here is really good (good for me too), but don't forget to have fun. Hands on controllers really help in this way. Doesn't have to be for hardware synths. I grew up on vintage analogue, which are great in that way. Soft synths have definitely come a long way though, and for features and value for money, they're great.

What hardware controllers are you using?

Good sound reproduction (and maybe room treatment at some stage) are critical too. No good listening on rubbish speakers, as you won't be able to hear what you're doing, and won't get the pleasure out of it that it should be yielding.

I think focusing on composition is really worthwhile, but understanding audio production is a part of composing. As Eno said, the studio is the instrument of the modern age. Orchestral composers understand audio production in a similar manner, just with different technology and medium. However, I wouldn't let a focus on production keep you from both playing and composing music.

[SovietSpaceChild]

In regards to getting NES sounds, you can always get one of these:

.:wayfar:.

[Tarkovsky]

There is one INVALUABLE peace of advice I can give you.

Get a track you like. Lay it out in the sequencer and work out it's structure. Try making your own track in that structure with your own sounds.

instant +1000xp

[SWAN808]

I echo the recommendations of analogue synths. For this type of music any digital synths like Virus will not be right.

For the OP - it might help to understand that there are broadly 2 types of hardware synth. One creates its sound from analogue components, and the other from a computer chip running a digital code.

The type you want is made from analogue components. Typically these are older synths you buy from ebay.

Examples of what would suit you and are not extremely expensive might be:

Oberheim Matrix 1000
Roland Juno 60
Roland JX3p

These plus a synth plugin that uses samples (of analogue synths) like Spectrasonics Trilogy.

Most of the artists you quoted use distortion or overdrive on their sounds - so look at something like iZotope Trash as a good plugin distortion.

Worry about your sound sources first - and making music. As you get better then start working on your mix tools...

[kasprouch]

Originally Posted by Tarkovsky

There is one INVALUABLE peace of advice I can give you.

Get a track you like. Lay it out in the sequencer and work out it's structure. Try making your own track in that structure with your own sounds.

instant +1000xp

+1... learn from those you admire the most and apply to your own stuff. listen to music critically, and then listen some more. once you're tired of listening, change music styles, but never stop listening

and remember your ears are the most valuable asset you have - make sure to protect them. plenty of people go deaf in this game so be wise and start thinking about it now.

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by SWAN808

For the OP - it might help to understand that there are broadly 2 types of hardware synth.

There are broadly 2 kinds of people; those who insist on some arbitrary binary separation and those who don't.

Have you seen the setups the artists mentioned use?

Worry about your sound sources first - and making music. As you get better then start working on your mix tools...

No, worry about music first. You can buy better sound sources, but you can't buy talent and the 10,000 hours you put into it.

Instead of DCO polysynths, rather pick a good mono - SE ATC or SEM would both do. Far more versatile, better in bringing the bass, and a far more important fundamental piece of gear than some DCO poly.

[msl]

Originally Posted by SovietSpaceChild

In regards to getting NES sounds, you can always get one of these:

.:wayfar:.

Another good choice is nanoloop



.

[Tarkovsky]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

There are broadly 2 kinds of people; those who insist on some arbitrary binary separation and those who don't.

For the sake of explaining something simply. Why the hell not?

[Yoozer]

Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.

[the_man361]

im 22 now, been doing recording and synthesis since i was about 15 or 16 and as yourself i am still learning stuff..

but i found it a very educational process to try to replicate the sound of songs that i was into. i'd hear a song that really grabbed me and i felt compelled to try and reproduce it to see what kind of job i could do.

it was a pretty much 100% self taught process, but i think that is a good way to learn with this kind of thing... since then ive been taught stuff at university about synthesis and mixing/mastering/processing, but i had it pretty much down due to this previous 'research'.

i think this is a good way to learn to navigate a daw and learn some synthesis/mixing techniques, because you can look back and think... what doesnt sound the same (or similar) to the original recording, and why? and then go and improve it.

maybe set yourself an attainable target to match a song you know inside out and see how it goes.. you'll probably learn something on the way.