small inexpensive mixer with direct outs - don't exist?

[jbuonacc]

according to the manual for my Soundcraft MFX12/2, the Inserts "can be used as an alternate pre-fade/pre-EQ direct output using a cable with the tip and ring shorted together so that the signal path is not interrupted".

[greenears]

I guess the question then becomes, if I use an insert as a direct out, how would I insert a comp?

[jbuonacc]

maybe i'm misunderstanding what you're looking to do, but would a patchbay work?

[dan p]

Originally Posted by jbuonacc

maybe i'm misunderstanding what you're looking to do, but would a patchbay work?

Paatchbay will do the trick but a higher quality mixer will yield better results overall

Dan P

[greenears]

I'm not familiar with patchbays and have never used one. Did some quick internet research and it seems that could work. Again, I'm just looking for routing capabilities not mixing.

gear > comp > RME

I just want to be able to switch comps without having to get all crazy. The comps are racked in a funklogic tray. So changing the chain sucks.

JB (or anyone) can you explain a bit how to use the patchbay in the manner I'm looking for? From what I gather, it happens like this...

All gear plugged into separate slots on the back. In on the top row. And out on the bottom row. So let's say the Mbase is on 1. RNC is on 10. RNLA on 11. MC2 on 12. If I want to use the RNC I would patch the front panel top row of 1 to the top row of 10 (top row of 10 goes into RNC)? Then patch the bottom row of 10 (coming back from RNC) to the bottom row of 1? (the output of 1 on the back bottom row going to my RME)

Is that right? What kind of latency does using a patchbay incur?

[Shim]

It seems like you have it figured out! thumbsup
Patch bays don't incur any latency, and they're a much better choice than using some shitty <300 dollar mixer. Just make sure you can solder ok?

[Ben F]

Originally Posted by jbuonacc

according to the manual for my Soundcraft MFX12/2, the Inserts "can be used as an alternate pre-fade/pre-EQ direct output using a cable with the tip and ring shorted together so that the signal path is not interrupted".

I have an MFX8 and the direct outs work ok.

[jbuonacc]

Originally Posted by Ben F

I have an MFX8 and the direct outs work ok.

?? the MFX don't have direct outs per channel like you would find on something like a Mackie 1604vlz, etc... or do you mean that you're using the Inserts like i described?

[chroma]

With inserts, you can use it as a direct out after insert, by setting it up so that the send goes into your compressor. The output of the compressor needs to be split; one side is your direct out, the other goes back to the return on the mixer. Some patchbays can be set up to do the splitting (half-normal can be used this way afaik, or dedicated 1:3 splitter), but it could just as well be done with the right cables too. Splitting an output to two inputs is safe; going the other way (connecting two outputs to the same input) generally is not.

[golden beers]

i use inserts as direct outs (even though my mixer has direct outs). i did this to basically save patch bay space and save money for cables.

only downside to useing inserts is that they are unbalanced.

soundcraft 200 delta has inserts and channel outs and is a damn fine mixer (if you go for one get DLX or delux channels as they have better EQ)

[idiotboy]

Patch bay is probably your best option.

They work essentially as you summarized, but you might read more about the different modes, (ie "normalled", "half-normalled", "isolated", "split"), as using the right mode for your particular application can save time and cables.

I like the Neutrik NYSSPPL.


FWIW, the most inexpensive mixer with direct outs (that I'm aware of) would be a used Soundcraft Spirit M8, for around $500-600. I had the M12 and used the direct outs to good advantage.

[RobJB06]

Originally Posted by idiotboy

I like the Neutrik NYSSPPL.

Yer, i have lots of those Neutrik patchbays- they are cheap and dont say behringer on the front yipeeeee
Have to say those Mackie Onyx look like pretty good little portable desks, pretty sure they have direct outs- i think thats what id go for if i was looking for something new (and compact)

[GYang]

Originally Posted by RobJB06

Have to say those Mackie Onyx look like pretty good little portable desks, pretty sure they have direct outs- i think thats what id go for if i was looking for something new (and compact)

Onyx is very good mixer for price with all functionality asked by OP.
I don't see any real competitior in this price segment (I have it as sub, sub mixer to some synth setups, thus not for real project mixdown, but I'm quite amazed how much they put for money and indeed with very acceptable sonic quality.

[chrisrnps]

There's no sense in running all your signals through the input section of a $300 compact mixer if you don't need to, IMHO, unless you're really determined to...



If all you want to do is be able to more conveniently patch in your different compressors, and you don't want to alter or "mix" the sound, that's exactly what a patchbay is designed for - you can get one of the cheapy Behringer ones for probably $30-40 bucks (they're still rugged metal construction, decent thick traces, etc. - I'd only spring for the higher-end $200 kind of patchbay if it's going to be constantly patched and repatched in a 24/7 commercial facility and needs to be really 'heavy duty').

Try to find one that can be configured for "normalled" or "half-normalled" operation - that way, you can plug your stuff in to the back (usually "from the outputs of your gear" on the top row and "to the inputs of your gear" on the bottom row) so that when you don't have any patch cables connected to the front, you have your most-used "default" (aka "normal") signal routings, and then if you plug patch cables into the front, it overrides the "normal" routings if you want to, say, try patching in a different compressor, or try cascading one compressor into another.

[greenears]

There's no sense in running all your signals through the input section of a $300 compact mixer if you don't need to, IMHO, unless you're really determined to...

No, if anything I'd like to avoid a mixer to save desk space. Thanks for the replies. Looks like I’ll be getting a patchbay. Aside from the stigma, any real difference between the Neutrik patchbay and the Behringer? The Behr does have switches on top of the panel to flip between normalled and non-normalled. Doesn’t look like the Neutrik has that.

Originally Posted by Shim

Just make sure you can solder ok?

Shim, can you explain this?

Also, I’ve read somewhere that by running unbalanced gear into a balanced patchbay it will unbalance the entire patchbay. Is this correct? Or are all the connections separate from each other? My gear and the FMR comps are unbalanced.

[chrisrnps]

Originally Posted by greenears

Aside from the stigma, any real difference between the Neutrik patchbay and the Behringer? The Behr does have switches on top of the panel to flip between normalled and non-normalled.

Functionally, no. There are some things where you don't really get "more" for spending more money, and IMHO this is one of them. The Behr ones are still all-metal, solid-feeling jacks, etc., and for regular home/project studio use should be plenty hardy enough. The switches are kinda cool; normally you have to take the patchbay apart and either cut traces or flip 24 circuit boards over to do that. Although you do have to be careful not to accidentally flick a bunch of the switches when you put it back in the rack.

Shim, can you explain this?

On hardcore, real-actual-big-studio good-old-days patchbays, cables are "hardwired" by soldering to the rear panel. On the "home and project studio" ones you'd be looking at, though, they just have a bunch of 1/4" jacks on back, just like on the front.

Also, I’ve read somewhere that by running unbalanced gear into a balanced patchbay it will unbalance the entire patchbay. Is this correct? Or are all the connections separate from each other? My gear and the FMR comps are unbalanced.

It'll only "unbalance" the connections in whatever particular signal path is connected to an unbalanced device, not the whole patchbay. In the same way that if you plug something into your RNC, it's an unbalanced connection, whether you use a TRS cable or a TS cable. In a "normalled" or "half normalled" patchbay, each vertical "column" (jacks directly above/below each other, front and back) is separate unless you connect them to each other with patch cables yourself - i.e., connecting the output of an unbalanced gizmo to channel 1 on the patchbay won't "unbalance" channel 2 on the patchbay unless you connect a patch cable between a channel 1 jack to a channel 2 jack.

[Shim]

Originally Posted by chrisrnps

On hardcore, real-actual-big-studio good-old-days patchbays, cables are "hardwired" by soldering to the rear panel. On the "home and project studio" ones you'd be looking at, though, they just have a bunch of 1/4" jacks on back, just like on the front.

Already explained^^^thumbsup
However, if you're going to have this setup for a while, a hardwired patchbay will save you money on 1/4" connectors and provide a more stable connection. I've never worked with one that is 1/4" connectors all round, but I'm sure they'll be fine in your situation as well. Horses for courses, or whatever they say...

[Resonant Serpent]

I use the behringer unbalanced patch bays, and I've never had a problem. I like the switches on top, but rarely ever use them. I just use the 'straight through' method of connecting all my equipment to the back of the patch bay. The outputs go on top and and inputs go on bottom, and I never have to actually touch the back of the gear which saves on wear and tear.

I was initially hesitant to use behringer for anything, but I figured if it was good enough for Autechre then it should work. And it does without any problem. I've bought them off ebay for as low as 25.00 new.

[greenears]

Thanks guys!

[golden beers]

just a note to say:
my friend got a berhinger patchbay and it's not great. the sockets flex after a very short while, so he was always round the back, jiggling

i use hard-wired moses and mitchell bantam patch bays, got them second hand, £60 each.

[Speeddemon]

It's no longer made, but they're available used quite often;

the Soundcraft Spirit Folio SX



12 mic preamps, each with a direct out and the direct outs are globally pre or post switchable (left next to the ch. 1 fader)

Otherwise indeed the Spirit M4 and M8 are the smallest ones.

[greenears]

So I grabbed the Behringer patchbay. I'm pretty sure the answer is "no" but just in case...

Can I use the patchbay with an "insert" feature? The FMR comps are unbalanced but can use TRS plugs on a mixer as inserts for I/O with one cable. Doesn't seem to work with the patchbay in this manner. But maybe I'm doing it wrong.

Looking at the signal flow of half-normalled operation makes it seem like it could be used like an insert.

[chroma]

that's exactly what you use it for. Plug into the bottom, it's like a direct out (because half-normalling doesn't break the normalling there); plug into the top and bottom, it's a send/return pair.

[RobJB06]

Originally Posted by greenears

So I grabbed the Behringer patchbay.

[robd]

Looks like I showed up too late, but I was gonna recommend the DBX patchbay. Cheaper than the neutrik and not a Beh.

You can also set up each channel's normalling individually without soldering anything.

[greenears]

I checked out the DBX but chose the Behringer due to it’s apparent ease of use (switches on top for three modes). So far I have not noticed any signal degradation or abnormal latency. Having the switches on top seemed like a no brainer for me considering I’m a novice with patchbays.

So let me explain the routing.

Mbase unbalanced out into 1A rear with TS cable. 1A front via TRS to 2A front. 2A rear via TRS to FMR RNC left input channel.

1B rear via TRS to balanced input on RME card.

Technically this should work right? Channel 1 on the patchbay is half-normalled. Channel 2 is thru.

[chroma]

(assuming you just left it out) You also need the output of the RNC left output to 2B back, and then a patch cable from 2B to 1B. Then, that's exactly how it should work.

Oh yeah, if you have a TS (unbalanced) anywhere in the signal path, the whole path is unbalanced. Thought the RNC was unbalanced; if the mixer's unbalanced, and the RNC is unbalanced, there's really no reason to spend the extra money for TRS cables, unless you're planning for later, because everything will run unbalanced anyways.

[supernova777]

the mackie 1220 (non-i version) has direct outs for all 12 tracks!!!!!
1-4 on a db25 connection.
and 5-12 on a 2nd db25 connection.

not sure what the snake would look like to get at those but im sure u can get it from mackie?

says the direct out is "POST GAIN, PRE INSERT"

i see one for sale for 300$ on ebay.. thats gotta be a decent price for a multitracking setup
but thats 4 mono, 4 stereo...

same as a m8 really
but i think the 1220 onyx is smaller

[Iamblichus]

Originally Posted by Shim

Already explained^^^thumbsup
However, if you're going to have this setup for a while, a hardwired patchbay will save you money on 1/4" connectors and provide a more stable connection. I've never worked with one that is 1/4" connectors all round, but I'm sure they'll be fine in your situation as well. Horses for courses, or whatever they say...

I wouldn't advise hard-wiring a patch bay for a project studio. I can't count the number of times I have changed my patch bay config over the past years.

FWIW I've been using Bheringer patch bays for years without a problem