Help Needed Simplifying My Studio

[musicman73]

Hello All,

This is my very first post! This forum seems to be a great resource of very knowledgeable folks. I look forward to contributing what I learn with others in the future.

My problem I am trying to solve once in for all is that given the time I have to devote to my music these day's I have found my system to be overly complicated.

First, some background may be in order to best understand where I am coming from. During most of the last half of the 90's I took a break from music to start my family. I am mainly a keyboard player and I enjoy making multi-track recordings. I was mistaken in thinking that the earlier part of this decade would yield any more time for my passion and went crazy at the music store. I was also very resistive at this point to using a computer as my center piece. The result was a great setup that I seldom had the time to use and when I did, I found myself relearning lots of stuff before I could even play my first note. At that time I used the Yamaha AW4416 as my systems center piece.

Fast forward to about 2 years ago and I decided it is time to finally embrace the idea of having a computer as my centerpiece. I sold off a lot of my extra gear in an effort to simplify my studio. More recently, I tried selling off my entire setup so I could simply start over. While I sold several pieces, many of my key pieces didn't sell and secretly I really didn't want to part with them.

Here is my current setup of what's left:

Argosy Dual 15K Keyboard Workstation
Yamaha MSP10 Powered Monitors
iMac 24", 2.8 gHz, 4 GB Ram
Apple Logic 8
Kurzweil PC3X
Kurzweil K2600XS
Korg Z1 (Expanded)
NI Komplete 3
NI Core 2 Controller

Misc stuff I definitely won't use in the future:

Yamaha A4000
Roland S770 Samplers (qty 2)
Korg DSS1
Art Pro Channel

My original thought was to sell my Korg, Kurzweil's and misc stuff to streamline my system to something more manageable that I can actually use. I thought I could replace my boards with a single Yamaha S90xs or S90es or even a simple controller like a Kawai MP9000 or MP9500 if I could find one and use the computer only as my sound source.

Now that many of my key pieces failed to sell, I am thinking the solution to my problem may be in the way the instruments interact with the computer and perhaps a control surface of some type like the Mackie Control is in order to make interacting with the software easier? Should I upgrade Logic to Logic Studio or should I look at another option all together?

To keep things simple, reliable and sounding great, I was thinking of getting a Apogee Duet firewire audio interface. If I go this route, what is the best way to connect my keyboards? Sound quality is of extreme importance to me.

Or do I need something like the Yamaha N12 which appears to be a digital mixer, control surface and firewire audio interface in one box?

One more note to consider, my K2600xs has an optical digital output, PC3X has a digital coaxial output and the Korg has a digital option. Not sure if I can locate the option board. Is there a way to keep it all digital going into the computer that will also keep it simple?

Ideally, I would love to get my setup to the point that I can simply sit down and start playing and recording as easily as possible while interacting with the software as easily as possible.

The way it always has been in the past is that I would spend most of my block of available time fiddling trying to get things to work. By the time I got it all going my inspiration or available time expired.

The good news, is now all of my kids are in High School since there priorities are friends and not parents I have more available time to devote to my passions.

Any help you all could lend would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you all in advanced for your help.

[Oli]

Hi,

I don't think there is any need to change your Mac or Logic, particularly if you are now reasonably comfortable with that.

What kind of music are you doing?

I think you have some great kit. I don't think it's all quick and easy, hands on, instant success gear, though. Not that these are necessary criteria, but if you are having issues with time, and getting into things quickly, then having something you can jam with can be really handy, imo. I like knobs on analogue for this, as well as something with a simple hardware sequencer, like an Elektribe etc, which you can just have on your lap with some headphones. Something powerful and fun, to bring a smile to your face can really work for me, when I don't feel like producing, or studying manuals, troubleshooting technicalities, etc.

I can't comment on the rest of your queries, sorry.

Anyway, hope you enjoy it. Maybe your kids will want to spend time with you in your home studio too.

Cheers,

Oli

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by musicman73

Ideally, I would love to get my setup to the point that I can simply sit down and start playing and recording as easily as possible while interacting with the software as easily as possible.

Spend a week on doing exactly that, instead of trying to get it to run to record something.

What you list doesn't seem to warrant a big mixer, so I'd get a good set of converters and a nice multi-input audio interface. The Kurzweils play nice with digital formats too so you could consider an ADAT board or box; no analog mixing required.

Get something that maps to your record/play/rew/ffwd buttons. You'll ask yourself how you could live without it. Saves remembering shortcut keys and it's much more obvious to just hit something.

[harness]

I think you should ditch one of the Kurzweils. Its a slightly moot point having both. If you don't use the sampling that much on the 2600XS, just sample ITB. The PC3 sounds better, more expansive VAST, it has 4X the KDFX power of the 2600, and a very capable VA-1 engine. If you do sample on the 2600, ditch the PC3 and max out the 2600 on expansion ROMs.

[sameal]

definitely don't change your d.a.w. "if it ain't broke don't fix it." going into another d.a.w. right now might put you into a couple of month's worth of relearning how to work it. there all pretty similar, but all have there quirks you have to learn. so if you have something your comfortable with thats running great without problems, why change a good thing?

if you can't ditch the keys, keep them, get a small mixer or similar product and a furman or similar product and have them all patched in. having the keys and the mixers power to the furman, with a flip of a switch or two your ready to rock, no hassle.

if you get a small control unit like a faderport or a nanokontrol, you could have that close to your setup and be able to punch in recordings from your key setup.(you could go as big as you want with all this im just tossing examples out there)

if you can find a small digital mixer, you could substitute that for the small keys mixer and control unit and spend even less and have the same flexibility.

positive workflow. make it the least amount of work possible to get something down on disc. computer on, furman on done. ready to rock.

[musicman73]

Originally Posted by harness

I think you should ditch one of the Kurzweils. Its a slightly moot point having both. If you don't use the sampling that much on the 2600XS, just sample ITB. The PC3 sounds better, more expansive VAST, it has 4X the KDFX power of the 2600, and a very capable VA-1 engine. If you do sample on the 2600, ditch the PC3 and max out the 2600 on expansion ROMs.

Originally, I bought the PC3X to replace the 2600XS thinking that it's more up-to-date connectivity and storage would serve me better. Additionally, it has editing software that I was hoping to master so I could get the most out of the PC3X. On paper, the PC3X is supposed to sound better but having them side by side I can tell you that the K2600xs blows the PC3X away sonically. The 2600xs is much fuller and fatter sounding. While the PC3X sounds excellent as well, it sounds thin in comparison to the K2600XS. My K2600xs is fully upgraded with exception to the electric piano ROM which I plan on obtaining if I decide to keep it. I think I need to focus on the connectivity of the keyboards to the computer. From that point forward seems to be the most difficult. I want to keep it as simple as possible but also easy to use with sound quality being a top priority. Once I solve that I can figure our the final fate of my keys.

[Oli]

What's your budget for audio interface? There are often some good deals in the classifieds section of this board, when some pro users upgrade etc. It's worth keeping an eye on that section, and just reading up on whatever is on offer there. If you're not too sure about what a particular product is like, you could probably ask around here for more specific advice.

By the way, are you using the VA engine on the PC3X? I'm just curious about what it's like. It was first promised by Kurz a long time ago, for a stand alone synth, but didn't make it for release until the PC3.

[musicman73]

Originally Posted by Oli

What's your budget for audio interface? There are often some good deals in the classifieds section of this board, when some pro users upgrade etc. It's worth keeping an eye on that section, and just reading up on whatever is on offer there. If you're not too sure about what a particular product is like, you could probably ask around here for more specific advice.

By the way, are you using the VA engine on the PC3X? I'm just curious about what it's like. It was first promised by Kurz a long time ago, for a stand alone synth, but didn't make it for release until the PC3.

I just sold an RME FireFace 800. It was a great sounding unit but too complicated for me to use. Because of it's extensive I/O, there were lot's of routing options which made it difficult for me to get it to play nice with Logic.

My initial thoughts were to pair everything down and get an Apogee Duet thinking it's sound quality is supposed to be up to snuff and it's limited I/O would make it easier to use for me. It is also my understanding that Apogee plays real nice with Logic. Is there another solution I should be looking at that will still be easy to use? Could I use a Patch Bay to route each respective keyboard into the inputs of a duet?

Once I get the interface easy and reliable I need to figure out a way to make Logic simple to use? Do most of you use one of those special template keyboards? Which control surface should I look at getting that is reliable and works? Is the Mackie Universal Control a nice unit? Or should I look at something else?

I just want it easy, reliable and to sound great. It seems like the more features you add the more complicated things become.

Regarding the PC3X, the VA engine does sound pretty sweet. I particularly like the Van Halen JUMP sound. While it sounds clean, the K2600xs sounds more analog sounding. It has a fatter, thicker, warmer sound. Another odd note, compared with all my other keyboards, the PC3X has a much lower gain output which I found odd.

[golden beers]

dude, you're bloated with workstations. it's easy to develop a fetish for these things!
you have to get rid of at least 2 of them.
i know its hard to, i still mourn the selling of my SY99 back in the 90s!.
it's going to hurt..

Originally Posted by musicman73

many of my key pieces didn't sell and secretly I really didn't want to part with them.

.

most likely you were asking too much for them.!

my preference would be to keep the K2600X and sell the others. in your case use that money towards some more software and a small mixer.

i would say the A & H ZED-R 16 would be a good mixer for you as it already has converters and ADAT i/o built in so you can put your K2600X straight into that.
this would give you the option for more outboard and dare i say it, an analogue synth or two for the future without the need for separate converters. as far as the sound quality for the A&H goes, from what i've heard it's the sweetest mixer and converter for the price.

so in short id'e say:
keep your favourite workstation, bite the bullet and sell the other two.
get the A&H ZED-R 16 and some nice software.

[steveman]

Just a quick reply to say don't assume using the digital output of boads will make things simpler. Don't know if there are any low cost digital mixers that have multiple digital ins, nothing much wrong with an a/d conversion with todays converters.
Using the Duet and having to replug a patchbay anytime you wanted to record something strikes me as a bit of a workflow killer.
As you don't seem to be bothered about using a mixer for actual mixing how about a stereo simple line mixer? the Speck XSum is probably more than you need but it does have the usefulness (for recording) of a 2nd stereo (Mix-B) bus, send that bus to the Duet, so when you want to record just switch the source to Mix-B and you're there. It ain't cheap but then neither's your gear...

[golden beers]

Originally Posted by steveman

Just a quick reply to say don't assume using the digital output of boads will make things simpler. Don't know if there are any low cost digital mixers that have multiple digital ins,

the A&H ZED-R 16 has 16 fire wire i/o and 16 ADAT i/o so for example the ADAT output of the K2600X will work no problems

[Oli]

For me, most affordable analogue desks are too limited with options for routing of effects, and audio inputs to synths. Just something to be aware of. Keeping channels separate until recording mix down has some advantages, or at least having more than a few send/return busses available helps.

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by musicman73

I just sold an RME FireFace 800. It was a great sounding unit but too complicated for me to use. Because of it's extensive I/O, there were lot's of routing options which made it difficult for me to get it to play nice with Logic.

I sold my Onyx 1620 and got a Fireface because the routing was too simplistic

It allows you to route anything to anything, but you don't have to. The mixer screen and matrix are IMHO really clear - far better than PatchMix DSP or the like. Just disable or hide anything you don't need.

[fooloof]

High school is when your kids need your time the most.

[steelyfan]

I would buy an older mixer with some preamps that have a sound to them and isn't crystal clear and plug all my keys up to that. Then record to a simple 8-16 digital recorder or 8 track cassette. Something simple that sound great. You could keep all you external pre's/keyboards/ mics patched up and everything ready to record, so when inspiration hits, you can get right to it!

I can't stand looking at a computer screen when making music, and having a simple recorder with faders will give you a more hands on feel to your work flow. Computers are editing machines, just don't make any mistakes.

Steelyfan

[musicman73]

Originally Posted by golden beers

the A&H ZED-R 16 has 16 fire wire i/o and 16 ADAT i/o so for example the ADAT output of the K2600X will work no problems

Thank you for your input. Can the A&H double as a controller for Logic as well? I will have to look into this option. Thank you for the suggestion.

[musicman73]

What is everyones thoughts on the Mackie Universal Control? Will this make life with Logic easiest?

Also, what if I took a line mixer to connect my 3 remaining boards, then ran the output of that into a Apogee Duet? Would this make my setup the easiest or is there a better way?

Assuming I eventually pair things down to one keyboard, what would you do then to make the setup as efficient as possible?

I am looking for some specifics. I just don't want to repeat my past mistakes as I am very inexperienced with the idea of computers and music together. Remember, I came from the old school days of onboard sequencers and multi-track tape decks.

Thanks again for all of your input! It really helps.

[musicman73]

I totally agree! I think I've got some nice stuff, but if I can't take advantage of their respective capabilities due to my lack of time that doesn't help either.

I can totally share you pain in reference to the SY99, I was one of the very first to own that board when it came out. I pre-ordered mine immediately after the Yamaha rep did a demo. To this day it is one of my all-time favorites. For me it was very intuitive to use in terms of its sequencing capabilities.

I would like to get back to that kind of simplicity in my most current system. If that means using a different DAW, so be it. It that means reconfiguring other things, so be it. I just want to be able to records my tracks instead of trying to figure out complex routings or other settings just to hear a single note through my monitors. At the same time, I want the power to tweak as I want and as I need.

With today's technology, it doesn't seem like it should be too much to ask. Perhaps it is the endless possibilities computers can provide that detract from the core task of laying down tracks.

Any help is greatly appreciated. If you could, please tell me what you would do if you were in my very shoes. That perspective may in fact be the most helpful.

Thank you so much. You guy's have all been great here.

Originally Posted by golden beers

dude, you're bloated with workstations. it's easy to develop a fetish for these things!
you have to get rid of at least 2 of them.
i know its hard to, i still mourn the selling of my SY99 back in the 90s!.
it's going to hurt..


most likely you were asking too much for them.!

my preference would be to keep the K2600X and sell the others. in your case use that money towards some more software and a small mixer.

i would say the A & H ZED-R 16 would be a good mixer for you as it already has converters and ADAT i/o built in so you can put your K2600X straight into that.
this would give you the option for more outboard and dare i say it, an analogue synth or two for the future without the need for separate converters. as far as the sound quality for the A&H goes, from what i've heard it's the sweetest mixer and converter for the price.

so in short id'e say:
keep your favourite workstation, bite the bullet and sell the other two.
get the A&H ZED-R 16 and some nice software.

I

[musicman73]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

I sold my Onyx 1620 and got a Fireface because the routing was too simplistic

It allows you to route anything to anything, but you don't have to. The mixer screen and matrix are IMHO really clear - far better than PatchMix DSP or the like. Just disable or hide anything you don't need.

Just for curiosity, did you get the Fireface 800 or different RME unit?

I agree with you that the matrix seemed really clear, but for me it did not react as it should with Logic. Perhaps I was doing something wrong. I found it to be very inconsistent in my case which frustrated me greatly.

[crufty]

workstations or logic is what i would suggest

workstations and logic is going to be a headache for a while. logic likes to be the master, workstation keyboards seem like a waste as slave so...

steely fan is right though. if time is of the essence, grab a mixer, a recorder (or use logic as the recorder), get a midi thru box (repeats one midi in to 8 out), setup one workstation as master, setup other workstations as slaves, get jamming! get a foot power switch, when you go into your room, step on the power button and within 30 seconds just start jamming out.

you will miss eq later on but who cares for now!

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by musicman73

Just for curiosity, did you get the Fireface 800 or different RME unit?

The 800.

I agree with you that the matrix seemed really clear, but for me it did not react as it should with Logic.

I don't know about Logic, but I've got Live. It simply presents a dumb list of all the possible inputs and outputs.

What were you trying to achieve, or did it sort 'm in the wrong order, or...?

[golden beers]

@ musicman73
no the ZED-R 16 cannot be used as a control surface. it's the best value mixer/converter combo out there which is why i mention it. you could go all digital mixer control surface and good AD converters if you have the budget, for me, i'de want to spend else ware.

yea i got to the stage with the SY99 where i was programming it as fast as i could think.. landed a record contract with a Demo EP 100% SY99... but you know what, then i tried cubase on the Atari, got into analogue synths and i never looked back.

yes you could try some other sequencers but to be honest i think you should invest some serious study time in logic. it is SO powerful. learn it!

i think if you were starting from scratch then you should do things differently, ie hardware sequencer. but you've got the awesome work desk and the MAC and Logic already so go that way. once you've got your set up together and you've learnt logic it will become intuitive and immediate in the end but you have to put the effort and time in.

[code 10]

By the looks of it you already have everything you need to make some great music, if you were looking at getting an audio interface it might be worth thinking about how many INS and OUTS you may need for future outboarb purchases, if you are happy with what you have and are not going to buy anything else then the Duet is a sound buy.

The only thing that could be a pain is just the two INS and OUTS of the Duet, it may be a good idea to buy a patchbay of some kind, other than that your good to go.

[musicman73]

Anyone have any thoughts on the Alesis Master Control as a solution? This piece seems enticing because it appears on paper at least to do everything I need in one box. My worry is with the sound quality department. Reviews I have read state that it sounds great. Anyone have any experience with this piece?

[musicman73]

First, thank you all for all of your input in helping me figure out a powerful, reliable yet simple setup that I can actually use.

Based on all of your input and research I have conducted on my own I am thinking of re-working my system to the following setup:

1) Argosy Dual 15k Keyboard Workstation
2) Argosy MPX Shelf (on order)
3) 24" iMac 2.8 Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo w/ 4 GB of RAM, 500 GB HD
4) Dual Glyph GT 050Q 500 GB Hard Drives w/rack kit (1 for Samples, 1 for Recording both via Firewire 800)
5) Alesis Master Control (Audio Interface, Mixer, Control Surface)
6) Kurzweil PC3X (Master Keyboard) via Digital Coaxial Cable
7) Kurzweil K2600XS (Slave) via ADAT Lightpipe
8) Yamaha MSP10 Monitors
9) ART Pro Channel for Mic Preamplifier (to supplement the weaker Alesis Preamp's)
10) Analysis Plus Balanced 1/4" --> XLR Cables from Alesis Master Control --> MSP10 Monitors
11) Sennheiser HD380 PRO headphones

What do you guy's think? Do you think this will keep it simple like I am wanting? My biggest concern is the Alesis Master Control. I have read a ton of professional reviews and user reviews; they all seem to conclude that it works well as a control surface and sounds excellent. The weakness of the unit appears to be with the two mic pre's, but I figure my ART Pro Channel can make up for that. It seems like a hard deal to pass up for what it offers assuming it works as advertised. Anyone have any experience with these or care to comment? Am I cutting a corner here?

My thought is using one unit like the Master Control could really simplify the setup so I can concentrate on the music.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again to all who have helped me.

[musicman73]

Oh, I forgot to mention. I already own everything with exception to the Alesis Master Control, Hard Drives, Cables and Headphones. I am getting ready to pull the trigger on these items.

Originally, I was trying to sell most all of my gear so I could simplify the entire setup. A lot of it sold and many of my boards did not. That's okay because in the end I really like my Kurzweil's, both for different reasons.

My biggest beef with the K2600xs is the noisy cooling fan. Anyone else been driven crazy by it? If so, did you find a solution to killing it?

I forgot to also ask everyones thoughts on the headphones as I just learned this past weekend that my dog ate my last set (MB Quarts) while I was out of town (YOUCH!!).

Thanks again!