New song in need of Mastering advice

[The Architecture]

This has been a song that I have seriously debated getting professionally mastered, as my setup isnt cutting it. The issues im having is when I mix it in the DAW (AL Live 6), Everything will sound just the way I want it. When I listen to the mix down, it sounds totally different. I have gotten around this by bumping up the sampling rate at the mixing stage, which opened up EVERYTHING so much that I had to cut back the trebble big time.

I have debated about getting professional mastering plugins, but know that they wont exactly replace a real professional mastering job.

This is the song that im fighting with right now. It kills me because it sounds just right on in my studio, but everywhere else theres a bit of a variation.

http://trancelanticrecords.com/trx/Aneurysm.mp3

Any advice would be appreciated. Specifically EQing.

[The Architecture]

I also just submitted the track to Thirtheenth Planet Records, im curious to hear anything back.

[living sounds]

This track is already so obviously overcompressed, a mastering engineer won't be able to do much with it.
I also think there are mixing issues to be adressed first. What kind of monitoring do you have, do you work in a well-treated room?

[golden beers]

good job! another great track from you.thumbsup
i would say that the mix is good but not quite there yet. so mastering it may not give it the fix you need.

my advice would be: lock it away for 2 weeks, don't think about it, don't listen to it and then mix it down again with fresh ears. and then have it pro mastered.

[The Architecture]

I have the most acoustically untreated room i can get. I have a vent that comes in and make huge amounts of noise. But not quite the Vince Clark dome acoustics either. Event Alp 5's on speaker foam and AKG 601's for mix checking. the downmix is always what kills my sound. It sounds PERFECT in the daw, but never translates to stereo.

I agree golden bears, I always find something later when I leave it alone.

[living sounds]

You mean it sounds perfect on your monitoring system but nowhere else? Or does it somehow suffer from rendering?

The monitoring seems to be the problem here. No amount of mastering can correct that, I'm afraid.

[The Architecture]

it sounds fine in the daw, but the mix down, aka rendering the file changes the way the entire mix sounds, i loose the highs, and the mids distort, I even a/b them in the daw, and the downmix has much less clarity. Things sound totally different and its always a guess how its going to sound in the end. I even just resampled the master into the daw and it sounds even worse. the track stays in the green for the most part, rarely hitting red, maybe 1 or 2 times in the entire mix.

down mixing at 88.2 helped it alot though.

[living sounds]

You could simply record the output of the DAW (via another audio software or a dedicated tool). This might also be solved by tweaking some settings in Live.

I think I had similar problems with this DAW when I tried it out a few years ago. Now I do everything in Reaper, where you can even record the output in realtime.

[The Architecture]

maybe what I can do is just extract the multi track stems out and mix then down in another daw. Reaper seems promising in that reguard. People do complain how muddy Live can make things.

I also only used Ableton FX's in the mixing process as well, which might be a culprit. I have Tracks EQ, but ive just been using the stock efxs.

[golden beers]

dude, sounds like youre mixing too hot read this man! http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-...log-mixes.html

[The Architecture]

Originally Posted by golden beers

dude, sounds like youre mixing too hot read this man! http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-...log-mixes.html

Great article Golden Bears. Now I need to find a trim plugin.

Heres my workflow

Main track is composed on a Akai MPC2000XL, which is a master for Ableton as well.

all synths and drum machines into Yamaha MG16/6FX. All 6 outputs are utilitzed on the mixer. Each part has its own channel.

ie

Channel 1: 909 Kick
Channel 2, 909 Snare
Channel 3: 909 hihat
Channel 4: Andromdea A6
Channel 5: JD990
Channel 6: Moog LP

than i plug other synths into the line/mic inputs on my Emu 1820M soundcard

chan 1: Dot Com

Then everything else is done via manual overdub.

NOW what i did notice is that before the master compression, im hitting the cieling before the compressor kicks in, which could be another source. I guess I was also trying to acheive a bit more loudness in the mix, but clearly that could be my biggest culprit right there.

So if i understand the article right, each channel needs to be below -20db?

The funny thing is the only part that got record a bit hot was the vocals. I think leaving the track to sit for a bit might be best before i try to tackle it again.

[lain2097]

True.

Aim to get -18, -14 dBfs. Mostly cheaper AD converters sound like crap pressed even a little bit. I learned this only recently after years of falsely applying "hot without clipping".

I hope that file was your "mastered" version

Think analogue: 0dBu (@+4 1.23v RMS) = -14 dBfs, 0dBv (.775v RMS) = -18 dBfs.

[The Architecture]

from what i have been told the Emu 1820M's have protool HD converters in them, but then again they might have not been the best A/D converters either.

So thats why most professional tracks you see the peaks at around -18db.

I actually recorded the synths at a relatively low level, arond -10 or so, i will have to check the mix again. But nothing ever really clipped, but i did boost things digitally in the daw.

[golden beers]

i guess -10 would be fine for most tracks.
the -20 was given as optimal because that equates to the input voltage that outboard gear likes to see.
if you're ITB all that the -20 vs -10 really means is head room. although apparently plug ins like it at -20 too.
i was at -10 to -6 before. after reading that thread i'm going down to -20! (with TRIM not fader)!

[living sounds]

Originally Posted by The Architecture

from what i have been told the Emu 1820M's have protool HD converters in them, but then again they might have not been the best A/D converters either.

They use the same converter chip. But that's it. The more important stuff (analog frontend, clock, PSU etc.) all is very different.

[The Architecture]

not to mention my other problem is my computer starts to choke up on me when i work on this song.

Makes me wish I had an 2 inch Studer multitrack machine instead of messing with all of this digital garbage.

[living sounds]

Originally Posted by The Architecture

not to mention my other problem is my computer starts to choke up on me when i work on this song.

Makes me wish I had an 2 inch Studer multitrack machine instead of messing with all of this digital garbage.

The upkeep is a nightmare, not to mention the costs. A Radar would be the solution. :-)

No, seriously, take a look at Reaper, most efficient DAW out there (aside from Sawstudio maybe, which is pricy and needs very much getting used to IMO).

[lain2097]

Originally Posted by The Architecture

from what i have been told the Emu 1820M's have protool HD converters in them, but then again they might have not been the best A/D converters either.

So thats why most professional tracks you see the peaks at around -18db.

I actually recorded the synths at a relatively low level, arond -10 or so, i will have to check the mix again. But nothing ever really clipped, but i did boost things digitally in the daw.

Yikes -10 dBfs is hot (like putting your mixer into the yellow so to speak).

Converters don't have to clip to sound bad. Some gear do not sound so nice pushing that hard (eg. compressors). Also it doesn't mean your EMU is crap just could be working it a bit.

From personal experience adding gain digitally is not like analogue. Better to have it almost there and only subtract later.

As a test, output your tracks (at unity) using the 8 outs, set your mixers' inputs at unity, plug them all in, now run it. Now the mixer will have eight loud tracks coming to it

Hope this makes sense.

[The Architecture]

Originally Posted by lain2097

Yikes -10 dBfs is hot (like putting your mixer into the yellow so to speak).

Converters don't have to clip to sound bad. Some gear do not sound so nice pushing that hard (eg. compressors). Also it doesn't mean your EMU is crap just could be pushing it a bit hard.

From personal experience adding gain digitally is not like analogue. Better to have it almost there and only subtract later.

As a test, output your tracks (at unity) using the 8 outs, set your mixers' inputs at unity, plug them all in, now run it. Now the mixer will have eight loud tracks coming to it

Hope this makes sense.

I'll give it a try. in about 2 weeks when im not burnt out on the track, lol. I actually most of what i did record was already around -18 to -15. I was told that with digital you try to push as much signal in because of loosing quality if you record too quietly. That was something i read a few years ago. Like instead of being 24 bit that -18 signal might be 21bit. something to that effect.

But I would probably have to redo the vocals not becuase of tuning issues so much but how hot they were recorded. Some of the vocals clipped.

Ironically this is probably the cleanest sound I have ever had. Back 2 years ago i used to DISTORT everything, 2-3 times over with Scream 4 Plugins when I used Reason. I have come along way since that.

I can see the benefit of a complete ITB setup, you wouldnt have to wrestle with recorded audio so much, just tweak, tweak, tweak till you get it right.

[living sounds]

BTW, nice tune! Also thought your live performances (youtube videos) are dope.

Noticed the 909 works great with them, luckily got one on its way to me myself. :-)

[diogo_c]

I'd get back to mixing - IMO vocals could bet more upfront, HHs could be lowered in volume, and I'd add more low-end on that bassline...etc. IMO it's not ready for mastering.

Nice song though, good writing!

Feel free to PM if you're interested in a mix or master.

[The Architecture]

Originally Posted by diogo_c

I'd get back to mixing - IMO vocals could bet more upfront, HHs could be lowered in volume, and I'd add more low-end on that bassline...etc. IMO it's not ready for mastering.

Nice song though, good writing!

Feel free to PM if you're interested in a mix or master.

funny, someone told me the hh's werent loud enough. but that guy is a trebble fanatic. Which I dont understand.

I wanted the kick to be defined and i didnt want the bass to muffle the definition of it.

It would be nice if i could get the song MIXED and MASTERED, instead of trying to figure it out on my half broken setup.

[kazper]

From my perspective some of the sounds are muffled together and competing for space, and need to be curved out for there space in the track with careful EQ settings. I sometimes decide where I want the instrument on the track to sit in the mix. Boost where I want it to stick out and subtract from where I want to allow another sound to shine.

Skip the inexpensive Mixer unless your distorting the input channels, like the 90's Mackie craze.

With the MPC you could solo the tracks and stripe them one at a time, or as many channels as limited by your DAW input capabilities. This could allow you some more freedom on what is on each track and or how to separate them out and tweak them as you find necessary. It would also allow for some great pre treatment with any outboard gear you have.


From a production standpoint, it's fairly good for a music I don't normally listen to.
I don't like how instantly the pad/Choir comes in the beginning, a careful fade in goes a long way .
Some adjustment on the drums when vocals are on, rather side chain them to some of the other predominate tracks to allow them room in the mix. Cut back on the verb on the vox tracks . Use the delay to have a less presence (quicker release) and you may try to mute except on strong points or right before breaks, but that may be the sound your going for. Lead Vox are over compressed but that could be your style, but your squashing the feeling out of the song.

If I was producing this song with you and the direction of the split personalities Screaming background vox.... and main vocals I'd ask you what the person singing lead's mood is... are they worried, spooked... about loosing there mind. I don't get a feel on that... which could make this song's performance much better if it was brought out. But since I'm not there and not working on the song and just going on what I hear when listening to it, this even could be slightly suggestive to your songs meaning.

Best and don't be afraid to ask for more clarification if needed. It's a excellent job and you were asking for comments. These are only here to help take it to the next level.

BTW what software is munging up the bounce, sounds like something we should run away from...

Kaz

[kazper]

I just looked at you equipment list.

Looks like all hardware synths, and software to record.

Get a half decent DI and run some of those synths through some Mic preamps.

For a bottom of the barrel product the Behrenger Di4000 uses transformers on the outlet, and honestly isn't half bad for the $100 price range for 4 channels. It would buy you some time till you can afford the $$$ DI's and preamps.


The 500 series equipment is very attractive for cost and there is some DIY options to get some great stuff down in the entry level market and it sounds very good. If your willing to solder a few components there is a few preamp designs that cover the API sound quite well which will defiantly open up some of the synths you have and add some extra balls to the 909, you would be very happy.

If you don't want to do the 500 series yet, the Golden Age Pre 73, is turning some heads as a fairly excellent starter unit for a Neve type clone preamp/DI. it looks like it took some pointers from past chinese Neve clones and corrected some of the major flaws. You could optionally put in the carnhill transformers at a later date, but the chinese iron could be good enough for you.

EQ and compression are hard to come by cheap unless they sound like crap, look up UREI and Orban on ebay. Orban made excellent broadcasting gear in the 80's and 90's it's no Neve 1081, but decent for the money. I have a Orban EQ, compressor and stereo spring verb in the studio. The EQ sounds fantastic for the $300 I paid for it.


I say all this just to say it helps to tweak the stuff going in as much as you can. The classic vox channel of a LA2A and 1176 inline with your mic and mic preamp makes million dollar records.. so a little outboard with all your outboard synths will go a long way.

Kaz

[The Architecture]

Originally Posted by kazper

I just looked at you equipment list.

Looks like all hardware synths, and software to record.

Get a half decent DI and run some of those synths through some Mic preamps.

For a bottom of the barrel product the Behrenger Di4000 uses transformers on the outlet, and honestly isn't half bad for the $100 price range for 4 channels. It would buy you some time till you can afford the $$$ DI's and preamps.


The 500 series equipment is very attractive for cost and there is some DIY options to get some great stuff down in the entry level market and it sounds very good. If your willing to solder a few components there is a few preamp designs that cover the API sound quite well which will defiantly open up some of the synths you have and add some extra balls to the 909, you would be very happy.

If you don't want to do the 500 series yet, the Golden Age Pre 73, is turning some heads as a fairly excellent starter unit for a Neve type clone preamp/DI. it looks like it took some pointers from past chinese Neve clones and corrected some of the major flaws. You could optionally put in the carnhill transformers at a later date, but the chinese iron could be good enough for you.

EQ and compression are hard to come by cheap unless they sound like crap, look up UREI and Orban on ebay. Orban made excellent broadcasting gear in the 80's and 90's it's no Neve 1081, but decent for the money. I have a Orban EQ, compressor and stereo spring verb in the studio. The EQ sounds fantastic for the $300 I paid for it.


I say all this just to say it helps to tweak the stuff going in as much as you can. The classic vox channel of a LA2A and 1176 inline with your mic and mic preamp makes million dollar records.. so a little outboard with all your outboard synths will go a long way.

Kaz

I got a Scully 280, does that cut it? I wanted clarity to the vocals, so I used my Focusrite Trax Master preamp. Sure it sounds cold, but I wanted coldness to the vocals.

Im debating about getting an ATB Toft 24 Channel mixer, thinking this would solve most of my mixing issues. Because I honestly do believe the Yammy mixer is whats killing me here. Makes everything sound like 1995.

But then many good albums have been made on crap like that, Mackies that is.

Since you asked what DAW im using, Ableton Live 6. Mastering was done exclusively with Ableton FX's and processors.

I also dont want SUPER clean sound. Thats seems to be a direction most people want me to go. I want to maintain a gritty dirty sound, but somewhat clear, like NIN's Downward Spiral.

[subsonix]

great track.

as mentioned by others, it's a bit over-compressed and that seems to make it sound kind of pinched.

nothing wrong with heavy compression on this style but with a bit less it would open out a bit and sound much bigger...