Q: for synth guys about keyboards

[max cooper]

I'm truly a neophyte synth guy, but I'm having a good time with the few software synths I have. I'm using an embarrasingly bad keyboard now, an M-Audio 61 key thing.

A couple of the lower keys have been mashed too hard by a drummer who was playing some patterns on it and a quick dissasembly shows the business end of the thing to be similar to a computer keyboard (and non-repairable). Into the dustbin!

So I'm thinking that as long as I'm gonna buy a new keyboard to play the virtual synths, why not get something like a DX7 or a Korg Poly 800 (although I prefer the pitch bender on a DX7). Is there any reason this wouldn't be as good as a modern midi keyboard as far as accuracy, functionalilty, etc ? I think it would be fun to get an old synth in the deal, and I'm sure that a DX7 keyboard is gonna be a bit heartier than some of the cheap stuff out there today, seeing as how some of 'em still work.

Anything in particular to look for? Seems $225 DX7's are everywhere.

Thanks!

[radiospace]

I think the MIDI implementation on the DX7 is pretty rudimentary compared to what you get with a modern day controller keyboard. The Poly 800 isn't much better, most likely. (They were both released very shortly after the introduction of MIDI). If all you are using the keyboard for is playing notes on softsynths it might not be an issue, but I would research it a bit before making the plunge.

While owning a vintage synth is attractive in its own right, I'd recommend that you get a good, modern, new controller for controlling softsynths, then get a vintage synth additionally down the road.

I recently got a Korg Kontrol 49 and while I haven't really learned to program it yet, it's pretty helpful to be able to assign filter cutoff and resonance to faders on the keyboard and use it to program instead of clicking with a mouse.

Another good series of controllers are the Novation X-stations, which include a built-in Novation synthesizer in addition to gobs of knobs and faders for programming soft synths.

On the other hand if you're just dying to learn to program FM synthesis with membrane buttons ( ), go for that DX7!

[MissionDifficult]

If you're using the keyboard to just play notes and control any other parameters, the DX-7 will work fine. I think a better idea would be to get a newer controller, like the ones from Novation, then maybe later get a DX-7 if you want. In conclusion, I agree with radiospace.

[jchas]

Though the action on a DX7 is great - the MIDI is lacking. Unless it's been updated with Gray-Matter E! the MIDI velocity is only 1-100. Since it doesn't utilize the whole 1-127 available under MIDI specs, the devices you drive with it will either never reach full velocity or be limited in dynamics.
The DX7II corrected this problem but the keyboard action isn't quite as sweet.

I've got an original Roland S-50 sampling keyboard that has great keyboard action and can be used with certain older RBG monitors which make MIDI routing
unbelievably easy. You can pick one up used for around $75-100 and their are
still sample libraries available on the net. The S-50 is a 12-bit sampler which, in my
opinion is a great lead synth machine because of the gritty nature of the sound.

[genericperson]

the action on the DX-7 ruled, but:
1) they are getting rather old now
2) the synths were crazy heavy for their size
3) the midi parameters are limited
4) the key return kind of makes a "clunk" sound when you release it quickly. this may or may not drive you up a wall.

since you are new to synths, i don't think you will appreciate the action on the keyboard. so it won't be worth the sacrifice on the other aspects.

[jonnyclueless]

How about a Jp-8000? It's got a great feel and it's a true analog synth, so it can get a lot of those vinategy sounds you might be looking for, but with a more current MIDI implementation.

W/O hijacking this thread, if anyone knows where I can get a Roland A-70, PLEASE let me know!

[Kestral]

Got sick of these crappy modern controllers so I bought an old Roland JX-8P this past weekend. Inspiring analog synth sounds plus a keyboard I enjoy the feel of. Best of both worlds.

[blakbeltjonez]

Originally Posted by jonnyclueless

How about a Jp-8000? It's got a great feel and it's a true analog synth, so it can get a lot of those vinategy sounds you might be looking for, but with a more current MIDI implementation.

W/O hijacking this thread, if anyone knows where I can get a Roland A-70, PLEASE let me know!

JP_8000 is not an analog synth, still a good choice though, versatile and you can pick one up for $400-500

[Shan]

Originally Posted by Kestral

Got sick of these crappy modern controllers so I bought an old Roland JX-8P this past weekend. Inspiring analog synth sounds plus a keyboard I enjoy the feel of. Best of both worlds.

I'll never part with my JX-8P. Semi-weighted. Look on the underside of the keys and you'll see a strip of metal(or something like it) under each key.

Max, you might want to go to your local dealer and check out the Keystation Pro 88. Real nice feel to it. It should work well with your Moog Madular V And I really dont understand how they can sell this unit for so cheap. $499.99 at Sweetwater. I might grab one myself for the studio.

Ahh....the Korg Poly 800. My first love. The first synth I ever purchased when I was a kid. Thousands of hours spent programming sounds. I regret selling it though.

Shane

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by jonnyclueless

How about a Jp-8000? It's got a great feel and it's a true analog synth, !

um... no it isn't.
It is a great sounding synth- we have one here, but it is most certainly a modelling synth, hence digital.
Don't let that put you off- it is killer- go the supersaw.

JR

[jonnyclueless]

Originally Posted by richmondjames

um... no it isn't.
It is a great sounding synth- we have one here, but it is most certainly a modelling synth, hence digital.
Don't let that put you off- it is killer- go the supersaw.

JR

I am more so talking about the sound than the guts. Most of the older guys I know that can't afford to bring the original synths on tour use this thing instead. Hell, Edgar Winter is using it as a replacement for the ARP 2600, and not missing the old dinasaur of a keyboard at all.

[max cooper]

Thanks for all the info. The keyboard I'm replacing is a Keystation 61. I was surprised by how easily the contacts could be damaged, and that there's no way in heck to fix 'em (well, that wasn't so surprising.) What happens if they get mashed too much is that the key will still work, but with no velocity info. So you'll be playing along and then BINGG!! you'll hit the bad key. I'm assuming the Keystation Pro 88 is heavier duty than the one I have (which is, I guess, the amateur version).

But it'd be nice to know for sure. It's a drag to have to toss a controller out because of a couple of keys.

[timtoonz]

Just to add a small note you might be aware of...

The big questions when looking for a controller (at least for me) are:

1) piano style keys or 'synth' style keys, or somewhere in between?

2) how many octaves? Is 61 keys enough? (sounds like it is)

3) do you care about controllers -- mod wheel vs. Roland thingy vs. Korg joystick etc.

If you're the only one using the thing, then it sounds like you don't care about piano action... Me, I play a bit of piano and I love the Kurz K2500 coz it's 'sorta' piano-ish, but squishy enough to do synth clav and drum parts.

Same for octaves - if you don't care what 'real piano players' think, then you can probably get by with 61 or 76 notes

Lastly, controllers are a matter of taste. You might not use'em now, but the more you get into synths and noise-makers, having extra wheels and data sliders can be pretty handy for all sorts of sound mangling tasks. The M-Audio stuff, while cheap, is pretty good for that kinda' stuff, and many of the older vintage synths (JX8p's etc) don't have as much to offer because of their more primitive MIDI spec.

What was that slider-crazy controller filled Roland just after the JX8P? The JD800? That always seemed like a cool controller to me. Probably pretty cheap now...

And as a DX7 owner, I'll second what the others have said. It's HEAVY, but has great action. That's why I kept it (with the E! mod).

T

[Albert]

I have a DX7 with the E! mod, and it is working fine after all these years. I still use it on gigs from time to time, depending on what I need. The case is made of metal, not plastic, which is no doubt one reason why they are so durable.

However, I would really not recommend it as your main keyboard. The midi is rudementary to say the least, velocity is limited to 1-100, and you can't use a volume pedal with it. The pedal sends something like controller #2 not controller #7.

Much better would be a DX7II if you are really married to the idea of an early Yamaha.

Other synths that make excellent controllers are the Korg Wavestation and Korg O1/W. They have some nice controller features built into their operating systems. The O1/W is also a nice sounding synth in its own right, and you could probably still find some great sounds on it. I also still use my Wavestation EX from time to time on gigs.

A Roland JV-80 or JV-90 would also be a pretty good choice. The JV-90 is the 76 note semi-weighted version.

My main gigging ax is a Roland A-70, a 76 note controller keyboard. I use it to control modules.

[jonnyclueless]

Originally Posted by Albert

My main gigging ax is a Roland A-70, a 76 note controller keyboard. I use it to control modules.

The A-70 that you have been meaning to get rid of and sell to me right?

[the_nihilist]

I recommend taking a look at some of the Edirol controllers. They don't have the "cheap" feel that most midi controllers seem to have, and the keys feel much nicer than most other offerings.

But, as always, try before buy.

[r0ck1r0ck2]

4AM

Rule #1
don't let a goddamn drummer touch your synths....that's just asking for broken keys/fingers
they communicate using Sticks for ChristSake!!
thats what monkeys do!!

what softsynths are you using??
some will really want real time controllers(read nobs) besides the mod/pitchbend wheel
these controllers can be set up to control various aspects of the synth...filter Q ADSR...that sort of thing
these can be a giant pain in the a$$ to set up and are iffy at best...but make the soft synth more musical
like an EQ nob on a console vs. EQ adjustment in ProTools....one is more visceral(sp?)
... the jp-8000=virtual analog= ....but it has TONS of Knobs...this = good news...
has way more real time fun than most modern silver/grey controllers...
listen to it...sounds dated after 3 years...

the DX-7 has stoopid membrane buttons that are tedious and SLOW
you really want nobs....they are the main interface of a synth....the keys are second....
look at a Modular....49 keys....hundereds of nobs

if you just wanna set up a sound on the soft synth and play....buy the DX-series
it' will be fine+sound great by itself

if you wanna get synth geeky/nob wankey.... look elsewhere...like the jp-8000...or the korg ms..lotta knob synth....
....just know that they sound like early 00's fake retro/techno synth

4am

[TheTruffleKing]

Originally Posted by r0ck1r0ck2

4AM

Rule #1
don't let a goddamn drummer touch your synths....that's just asking for broken keys/fingers
they communicate using Sticks for ChristSake!!
thats what monkeys do!!

[r0ck1r0ck2]

of course if you use a casio or yamaha consumer keyboard for a controller.....
well even a vicious dog can't destroy those buggers
they're made for children.....which of course are much worse than monkeys dogs + drummers combined...

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by r0ck1r0ck2

of course if you use a casio or yamaha consumer keyboard for a controller.....
well even a vicious dog can't destroy those buggers
they're made for children.....which of course are much worse than monkeys dogs + drummers combined...

OK, so this is what I'm looking for. Pop one of the keys off of your computer keyboard. See that little rubber-lookin'-doodad? That's what's under the keys in this here M-Audio Keystation 61. And they're affixed in a wholesale manner to a board about which nothing is modular. There are little plastic blocks glued to the bottoms of the keys which make them 'semi-weighted'tutt and what makes the keys spring back into place? Rubber bands. Like the ones that come in a box of 1000 for 69¢ at Office Max.

So, does anyone know how much you gotta pay to get better, and possibly repairable mechanisms? I know they're not gonna let me go into Guitar Center and start pulling keys off of stuff to see how they work.

Now, admittedly, the busted keys are C3, D3 and F#3, which sound a lot like General Midi Kick, Snare and HiHat. Of course, I told the drummer that we had a Midi Kat that he could use, but anyway...

Oh, by the way, I'm using this with Arturia Modular, Scarbee Wurlitzer and I just ordered the Arturia Arp 2600. I'll probably get either Synthogy Ivory or something like it.

As far as having knobs I have one of those B B Behringer (hard to say it) MIDI controllers, so I'll probably configure that if I can.

I must admit that I'm still a bit intrigued by the E! mod on a DX7 II. I'll never gig with the thing, so weight doesn't bother me, and besides, I hate how this M-audio controller bounces all over the "Ultimate Support" stand because it doesn't weigh enough.

So what's with the E! mod? Will I find DX7's with the mod, do I have to add it, or how does it work? I'm probably gonna do this... Besides, I remember a couple of DX7 patches I think I wanna have anyway.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by max cooper

... A couple of the lower keys have been mashed too hard by a drummer who was playing some patterns on it and ...

This happened to one of my boards -- and it was a decent, semi-weighted board (Alesis).

Similarly, it was a guitarist creating a drum part. And he did the damage in just an hour or two of pounding on the kick drum (first C note on my 'board).

You can totally feel the difference in the action, now -- it's like a good fraction of an inch lower. And you have to hit the poor thing even harder just to get the same sound.


It was really gruesome. The guy's a friend. (Well, the husband of a friend. It's kind of the same thing. Sort of.) And he was working practically for free, probably not even paying for electricity. (It wasn't supposed to be, but that's how it worked out. It was one of the reasons that made me 'close my doors'... that and the fact that other people's music drives me nuts after a few listens. Hell, even some of my own stuff does...)

It still ticks me off to think of it. (It doesn't help that the last time we talked -- he was hyping one of his upcoming shows with his country rock band [he doesn't like country but there's no market for his brand or hard rock] and he managed to slip in a nice insult to my guitar playing. I mean, I'm no great shakes but I can certainly play a lot better than he can. But I guess he doesn't think so. And I'll bet he can't figure out why I don't come to his lame ass shows. What a jerk. I hope he reads this. )

[jchas]

Originally Posted by max cooper

So what's with the E! mod? Will I find DX7's with the mod, do I have to add it, or how does it work? I'm probably gonna do this... Besides, I remember a couple of DX7 patches I think I wanna have anyway.

I would venture to say 1/2 of the DX7II's have the E-chip installed, either from the factory or added later when it became known how much horse-power it gave you.
Besides giving the DX a cheesy sequencer it allows for building some great patches. The Octal mode lets you combine 8 sounds at once. It opens the MIDI specs up a bit too - by giving you more assign options. Another plus is the micro-tuning - not for everybody, but a very neat addition. Heres a user review from HC


Ease of Use: 7
The E! board for the series II came out in 1989.
It came with a pretty decent manual, but it took me a while to find my way around the engine. I first had the board installed in a DX7 IID, but soon enough found that a Disk Drive was essential, so with a good trade-in quickly acquired the FD model.
This way I could also load the included sounds and demo songs that came with the board.




Features: 10
Features
The E! board gives the DX an enormous amount of extra features, in addition to the already great standard features.
Mostly it turns the DX into an 8-part multitimbral synthesizer, with a 16-track pattern based Sequencer. Hardly any restrictions there in terms of sequencing and programming.
Here’s a synopsis of its specs, excerpted from the original Grey Matter brochure.


Octal Mode
*16 note polyphony with 8 polytimbres
*Dynamic Voice Allocation
*Separate Volume for each timre
*Octal Stereo Pan with
*Octal random Pan
*Note shift for each timbre
*Each timbre can be assigned its own Midi channel
*Separate Velocity Processing for each timbre


SE!quencer
*16-tracks/16 midi channels
*Each Track assignable to any of 8 internal timbres
*Tracks also assignable to external Midi Instruments
*10 Songs/32 Patters
*220,000 events internal disk storage
*22,000 events internal RAM storage
*Real-time record and Step record
*Step editing
*Post-quantisation (auto-correct to 1/32 note triplets)
*Record Tempo
*Real time song record
*Midi Delay via Track Offset
*Live Mixdown via LCD
*Midi Internal/External Sync
*Assignable Lead-in
*Internal Metronome
*Visual Lead-in and metronome via LED display
*LCD Help screen for all modes


Engine
*16 Track DX/Midi event processor
*16 Track Midi channel mapping
*16 Track Patch mapping
*Transmits and receives on all 16 Midi channels simultaneously
*Separate Velocity Processing on each track
*Enhanced Midi velocity levels
*Separate transpose on each Track
*Auto-accompaniment modes – Player and Chords
*Controller data can be assigned to separate Tracks
Expanded Memory
*256 internal single voices
*128 internal Performances
*Performances include:
-original Yamaha Performance data
-Octal mode setup
*SE!quencer Songs
-16-Track Patch map
-All Engine settings


Voyeur the MIDI monitor
*Visual display of incoming Midi stream via LCD
*Monitor individual Midi channel or all 16 simultaneously
*Midi filter allows display of specific Midi data
*Displays in hexidecimal


Twelve Tone Microtuning compiler
*Compiler creates scale globally
*Internal storage for up to 32 additional Twelve Tone scales


Only disadvantage of the E-board, is that it makes the DX rather slow when using the sequencer or multi mode. Other than that, the expansion board was worth every single penny.




Expressiveness/Sounds: 10
Heaps of sounds - good and bad, but at least nothing similar to the boring sounds on todays synths.

Reliability: 10
Rock Solid

Customer Support: N/A
Because of the above, never had to deal with Yamaha.

Overall Rating: 10
If you own a DX7 II fd with the E! board, you can say you’ve got a pretty unique and rare instrument. Probably the most powerful DX ever made and it’s a pity Yamaha changed course and chose to commercialise their line of synths by producing the SY-series.
Yamaha were designing an even more powerful FM synth after the DX7II, which was suppose to become the V-80. They did make a low budget version, theV-50, which flopped, so the V-80 was further designed and became the SY-77.
The SY77 did have improved FM syntesis, but I never regarded the SY77 as a worthy follow up to the successful DX line of synths. The SY’s were family to a new breed called “Workstations”, who were incomplete in every way.
The DX7II with E! is really an SY77 without the crappy PCM waveforms and horrible effects.
I still think Yamaha should have made a DX7 III with 256-voices, so when using it in Unison mode you won’t run out of voices.


Only one DX is more unique than the series II with E!, that’s if you own a DX7II Centennial. Yamaha only produced a 100 of them, as they were celebrating their 100th anniversary in 1987.
The Centennial is completely silver and gold painted.


I’ve had almost all the big FM synths made by Yamaha and the DX7II is by far my favourite. I’ve kept the TX7 as well, just for the old and dusty FM sounds.
A good alternative for the DX series II with E!, is the TX-802, but for sound storage it’s very limited and one has to compromise when assigning voices to parts.
Having had the DX for 12-years now, I still haven’t come across a synth that plays, sounds and looks as good as the DX7II.


When the DX7II came out in 1987, it had a ridiculous price tag on it, just like any other Yamaha product that hits the market. Its price soon dropped and two years later, in 1989 when the SY-77 came out, the DX became more affordable.
These days second hand DX7II’s are not as easy available as the old DX7, but they’re not hard to get for a really low price. A DX7IIfd with E! might take you a while to find, as not many E-boards were sold to DX7II owners, due to the strong position the Korg M1 had late 80’s.
For its time, you’ll be surprised how much the DX7II E! is capable of .
Why should one consider buying a DX7II, with or without the E-board? It’s the only one in its kind, its sounds are big, it’s compact, has great programming features, nice keys, great looks, it’s the best DX ever made. There’s the DX-1 and the DX-5, which are rare buggers, but they’re only interesting for the fact that they’re rare.


Just like any other synth, the DX has good and bad sounds. With the huge number of sounds available for the DX and fairly easy programming, you can create some pretty powerful, rich and expressive sounds. That is if you’re looking for something that adds a new dimension to all those boring sample based and virtual analog synths.


Next to the DX7IIfd E! I own: JX-10, JD990, TR-Rack, D550, MPC-60, TX-7, Prophet-600, SDS-7, MKS-70, S4+, Emax IIR, Linndrum, P330, MSQ-700.

[max cooper]

Wow! Great info.

So I check on Ebay and there's a DX7II with E! mod for 499.00 and the seller is local (hands off you guys! Like you're all foaming at the mouth to pay $500 for a DX7 ). It's pricey, but it looks like a super cherry example.

So I dunno, 61 keys is enough for me, and if I'm gonna pay $300+ for a controller, I'd rather have a DX7, since I've been wanting one anyway. If it doesn't work out as a controller, I've still got the synth.

Should I buy this? Is it stupid to mention something you're thinking of buying on Ebay? Or will someone save me from this?

Thanks, everyone.

[max cooper]

Turns out I found one of these here Fatar 90's for $200. It's doing the job quite nicely! Thanks for all the help etc!!!

[Shan]

Great choice Max.

Straight forward. Simple. Portable. And full 88 weighted keys.

Now we just need to teach you some Emerson licks so you can get rockin with that Moog Modular V of yours.

Shane

[max cooper]

I dig it. I still wanna get a more 'synthy' keyboard, but since I just got Synthogy Ivory, I figured this was a must-have, especially at $200 (doesn't have pitch bend, for example.)

Hey, here's a question. I bought Scarbee Wurlitzer software to work on a project a few months back since they guys were running the Scarbee Rhodes and I wanted to use Wurlie instead. Is there a way to run the Scarbee stuff in PTLE? I think it's pretty much a VSTi deal, and I have that fxpansion wrapper, but there's no way to track a virtual instrument with that much latency.

I know I should s.o.g.o.t.p. about SX3 like I've been saying.