26th August 2009
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#1 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Feb 2008 Location: New York
Posts: 265
Thread Starter  | Beatport is Discouraging the use of Lossless stems in their remix contests...
Hey All,
Well I recently contacted Beatport about their Black Eyed Peas remix contest - First of all they want you to pay $4.99 for the stems, which I found interesting, but after some thought decided why not... I have my checkout automatically set to WAV and was surprised to see a total of $26.99 when I was about to checkout. I contacted them and apparently they want you to use the MP3 stems and will charge you $22 in "WAV handling fees" if you want a better quality sound... Now personally I don't see why they don't give you the WAV files, but maybe they have their justifications. I just wanted to put my experience out there for everyone to know that this is going on. Here is my line of inquiry and response from Beatport:
Me:
I just received an e-mail about the Black Eyed Peas Remix contest which sounds quite cool and i'm interested in participating. I take my remixing serious enough to pay the $4.99 for the tracks, but it's giving me a WAV handling fee of $22. So while i would pay $4.99, i wouldn't pay $26.99. Is this how much it's supposed to cost to participate in the contest? Thank you for any clarification. Joseph
Beatport:
Hi there,
Thanks for getting in touch. So that everyone enters the competition on a level playing-field we only offer the bundle package for mp3. This is to make sure that no one's entry is unfairly discriminated against. If you check the rules of the competition you will find this in article 1.
I am afraid we can offer no discount for the WAV package. I apologise for any inconvenience.
Don't hesitate to give me a shout if you have any further questions.
All the best,
Jack
Me:
Jack,
Thank you for your speedy response. I can only say that I am quite perplexed why the contest is set up this way. If I am going to invest my time and energy into doing a remix, it must be done proper, and I find it completely insufficient to do a professional remix with MP3 stems...Now perhaps Beatport sees this differently, but to me paying $27 for the proper tools to do a Black Eyed Peas remix is unacceptable. Are you saying that "so that everyone enters the competition on a level playing-field" and "no one's entry is unfairly discriminated against" you are encouraging producers to use sub-quality, lossy source material? If anything all remixers should be provided with the original WAV stems for $4.99; most remix contests that i've seen out there do not even require you to purchase the stems, let alone pay such large WAV "handling fees". Besides, if anything it creates an unfair advantage to those who have enough money where $27 for higher quality stems is of no consequence. It favors those who are willing to pay that much for the WAV files...I hope you can have the contest organizers address this issue that I see as a flaw in the contest and an unprofessional approach to conducting business, especially in terms of artistic integrity; If you expect people to create a professional remix than they need access to the lossless files at a fair price. If this discussion is felt to be irrelevant for Beatport then I would feel obligated to take the discussion to the larger community of DJ's, Musicians and Producers in order to establish a dialogue on what constitutes a proper remix contest and whether charging $27 for the lossless WAV stems is the appropriate way to "level the playing field".
Beatport:
Dear Joseph,
I appreciate your concerns, however please bear in mind that this is a competition, not a commission from a label to produce a remix. We have run dozens of remix competitions to date and this has always been our policy, despite each time there surfacing a handful of protest similar to yours to the contrary. It is not at all that we expect people to pay large sums of money for the lossless files, rather that we actively discourage it (hence the lack of bundle discount).
There is absolutely no need to use compressed lossless parts to enter this contest. If your remix is chosen as winner, then you will of course be afforded the time and resources to produce it with lossless parts.
It is not a question of artist integrity, rather an invitation to be as musically creative as you can with the resources available.
Remember the maxim: a bad worksman always blames his tools!
All the best,
Jack
Me:
I do understand that this has been Beatport's policy for many contests, but I don't see why you don't offer the WAV files to everyone entering the contest instead; it looks more professional to you and is certainly worth it to the producers working hard on their remixes... So if they should win and be "afforded the time and resources to produce it with lossless parts" they have to put the whole remix back together again? This is a counter productive policy, and I would at least like to know why the MP3 stems are provided instead of WAV. Is it the higher hosting cost for the larger WAV files? And why are you "actively discourage" the use of better quality source material for your remix contests? Please consider having a "level playing field" by providing all with the proper tools to do a proper and better sounding remix, the WAV file bundle.
Beatport:
We always appreciate hearing feedback from our customers as we constantly strive to improve the site and make it a more comfortable shopping experience for you, and accordingly your comments have been logged and will be taken into consideration by our design team.
All the best,
Jack
I know it's quite the lengthy bit, but I found this exchange interesting. He wouldn't give me a reason why the will provide only the MP3 files (is the hosting cost really that much more to provide access to the WAVs? Maybe it is...?) And I do agree that this is a contest and not a licensed remix gig, so you have to play by their rules. But I guess i'm just interested to see how people feel about the situation. It is an especially relevant issue for me since I have recently switched to all lossless files as sample sources and really hear the difference, it's quite fantastic actually. In any case, interested to hear peoples opinions. - Joseph
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26th August 2009
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#2 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Mar 2007 Location: NYC
Posts: 678
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Personally I take these kind of competitions, where you have to Pay to "work" on a remix completely a waste of time.
I see it just as another way of selling you their music, it's a complete greedy marketing move.
I dont see the reason whatsoever of why you would have to pay to enter in a competition where at the end, you are the one who should be paid for in the first place.
I understand the game of remixing has changed and it keeps changing, and these days were everyone can throw in some loops in garageband, Live or iphones somehow this market has to be exploded to make a profit .
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26th August 2009
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#3 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Sep 2008 Location: The Lagrange point between Jupiter and Io
Posts: 1,657
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I wont comment on the rest of the discussion, but the cost of giving away WAV vs MP3 is higher in terms of bandwidth. Keep in mind that a WAV file is generally about 4 times larger than an MP3, so that means it requires 4 times as much bandwidth to transfer it. That costs Beatport 4 times as much in bandwidth charges as the same file in mp3. I can guarantee you that hosting and bandwidth charges are a major part of the money going out, and it is in their best interest the keep those charges under control.
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26th August 2009
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#4 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,268
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If you aren't commissioned to remix something, MP3s should be more than fine. Remix contests tend to bring out millions of people who would never have a chance of anything getting released and if you're distributing WAVs, bandwidth will skyrocket.
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26th August 2009
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#5 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Aug 2004 Location: Germany
Posts: 3,420
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They want you to PAY for remix files? Screw them.
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26th August 2009
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#6 | | Lives for gear
Joined: May 2009 Location: yurp
Posts: 9,565
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian!  and if you're distributing WAVs, bandwidth will skyrocket. | Do you know how much one gigabyte of bandwidth costs you when you're buying the amounts Beatport buys every month just because they're selling their regular stuff on the side? I'm fairly sure those 5 bucks would cover that - several times, actually.
Cost is not much of an argument in this case and I agree with you that mp3s will do the job if you're not hired. Especially for the material in this case  .
That they're asking you to pay 5 bucks for it is a bit silly, though.
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27th August 2009
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#7 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Nov 2007 Location: Berlin
Posts: 4,380
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Hardly discouraging, its totally understandable. Marketing pure and simple, spreading their costs and revenue streams. Don't think it has anything to with bandwidth, beatport have a LOT of bandwith, I don't think a few thousand downloads means much in the grand scheme of things for them. If I was mr big name lable/dj I might do the same, why not, sales are down anyway. You take what you can get these days.
What's not understandable is why you would want to remix Black Eyed Peas. 
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27th August 2009
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#8 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Sep 2008 Location: The Lagrange point between Jupiter and Io
Posts: 1,657
| Quote:
Originally Posted by msl
What's not understandable is why you would want to remix Black Eyes Peas.
. | +1 on that. Talk about awful music. Makes Tiesto sound good.  | |
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27th August 2009
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#9 | | Banned
Joined: Apr 2009 Location: SPACE!!!
Posts: 2,915
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Originally Posted by Eric J +1 on that. Talk about awful music. Makes Tiesto sound good. | But not as good as Justice.  | |
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27th August 2009
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#10 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,268
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer Do you know how much one gigabyte of bandwidth costs you when you're buying the amounts Beatport buys every month just because they're selling their regular stuff on the side? I'm fairly sure those 5 bucks would cover that - several times, actually. | I'm quite sure Beatport picks up bandwidth cheap however, like any business, they will do things to cut costs no matter how insignificant they may be.
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27th August 2009
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#11 | | Gear interested
Joined: Aug 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 13
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric J but the cost of giving away WAV vs MP3 is higher in terms of bandwidth. | True, but no excuse for beatport. They charge an extra fee, called a WAV handling fee, when you choose WAV for the format, rather than MP3.
So they actually make more money from offering WAV stems. Can't see why they don't want to.
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27th August 2009
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#12 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Feb 2008 Location: New York
Posts: 265
Thread Starter |
hmm, well so much for the bandwith justification...
and lol @ "who would want to remix blackeyedpeas anyways" comments,
i know that was coming  | |
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27th August 2009
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#13 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,577
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I'm against any company that makes 'handling fees' and thus boycott certain companies including a few banks that charge extra handling.
It's ridiculous! Here's to Beatport: dfegadBP
__________________ THE MPCIST
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27th August 2009
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#14 | | Lives for acid
Joined: Dec 2008 Location: Me!bourne, Australia
Posts: 1,921
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Just about any competition on earth, be it the lotto or playing bingo or entering a remix competition or a body building competition requires a competition entry fee. It's a perfectly normal thing.
In the case of a poker tournament, you can pay a higher entry fee to get a seat at a higher level of the competition, bypassing the bottom rung.
__________________ Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Parsons I've always been a believer in musical repetition to draw in the listener and make the music hypnotic.
Another thing I believe in is repetition. | | |
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27th August 2009
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#15 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Nov 2007 Location: Niagara
Posts: 3,884
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Originally Posted by networkacid Just about any competition on earth, be it the lotto or playing bingo or entering a remix competition or a body building competition requires a competition entry fee. It's a perfectly normal thing.
In the case of a poker tournament, you can pay a higher entry fee to get a seat at a higher level of the competition, bypassing the bottom rung. | Or you can be commissioned to do it, because the artist knows you actually have talent and a rig larger than FL studio and a Yamaha PSR 36 "midi synthesizer". You will get paid good money. and they get exposure in a market they couldnt touch on their own. and its a win win situation...
Unlike this, which is a huge, epic fail.
alexP
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27th August 2009
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#16 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Apr 2008 Location: Germany
Posts: 285
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Beatport uses remix-contests for different reasons:
- Self promotion, branding
- Selling the stems (obviously including a margin)
- Promotion for the Companies which spend the Winner-Prices
Its pretty smart. But they are not alone. Some "labels" do remix contests in the hope of catching some good talents and release their remix giving zero royalities to the winning artists. Besides of that the label gets some attention. A lot of this business - especially gear and software - is about screwing out the last money out of some home-studio-producers which think its their way up the stairs.
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"...when everything is loud then realy, nothing is loud" B.Katz
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27th August 2009
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#17 | | Gear nut
Joined: Jun 2007 Location: Hampshire
Posts: 103
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I wonder if the wav's are just decoded mp3 files. Would explain the 'handling fee'.... | |
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27th August 2009
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#18 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 161
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Originally Posted by Derp But not as good as Justice. | laffo  | |
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27th August 2009
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#19 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Oct 2005 Location: Peoria IL USA
Posts: 192
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why would you pay money to enter a remix contest?
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27th August 2009
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#20 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 518
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Am I expected to keep track of my many thousands of edits when I recieve the wav files later on when I´ve won?
dfegadBeatport
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27th August 2009
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#21 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Aug 2009 Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 504
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A - I'm suprised you even received a response from Beatport not to mention several responses.
B - If I wanted to really remix a song and had to purchase the stems from Beatport or some other service then I would get the wav files, regardless of price. That's just me. But like I said, it would have to be a song I really always wanted to remix.
C - I think beatport saying they or the label will allow time to re-do the song if you won is an assumption and wouldn't hold them to it. That could be a tedious process depending on all the edits made but otherwise it shouldn't be more then another mixdown session. I tend to use less parts from the original anyways so it really would only be a matter of getting one or two elements to fit into the rest of my mix. By that time I would be excited that I won that this would no longer be tedious or annoying.
D- Beatport does have to make some money and I understand the additional costs with transferring wav over mp3. So if this is their scapegoat then let them have it.
E - I concur - BEP  tutt
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27th August 2009
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#22 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jan 2008 Location: Brazil
Posts: 1,948
| Quote:
Originally Posted by living sounds They want you to PAY for remix files? Screw them. | +1  beatport!
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27th August 2009
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#23 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jan 2007 Location: Home Enthusiasm
Posts: 4,478
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pull the tune from youtube, chop it up into renoize and go Venitian snares on it. post back to you tube, send beatport the link for your submission. F the man!
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27th August 2009
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#24 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Oct 2007 Location: N.Y.C.
Posts: 2,887
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Originally Posted by detritusdave I wonder if the wav's are just decoded mp3 files. Would explain the 'handling fee'.... | I bet they are!!! | |
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27th August 2009
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#25 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,493
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I remember a remix contest, either at Beatport or elsewhere, although I'm pretty sure it was BP, for Starecase's "Vapour Trails" some years ago. I recall the stems were free.
Someone saw the moneymaking potential, and here we are.
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Needs more "silver"...
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28th August 2009
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#26 | | Geariophile
Joined: Oct 2006 Location: london
Posts: 9,632
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So, if one were top be as......erhmmm, keen..... as to enter this type of lark, would the Black eyed vocals already be autotuned, or are you expected to do that I wonder? 
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have confidence in your ability to rise above the foam - crufty
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28th August 2009
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#27 | | Lives for gear
Joined: May 2009 Location: yurp
Posts: 9,565
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Originally Posted by Karloff70 So, if one were top be as......erhmmm, keen..... as to enter this type of lark, would the Black eyed vocals already be autotuned, or are you expected to do that I wonder? | Non-autotuned BEP vocals would probably be like unretouched pictures for fashion magazines - so I don't imagine you'll ever be allowed to hear those.
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28th August 2009
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#28 | | Geariophile
Joined: Oct 2006 Location: london
Posts: 9,632
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Originally Posted by Yoozer Non-autotuned BEP vocals would probably be like unretouched pictures for fashion magazines - so I don't imagine you'll ever be allowed to hear those. | Of course not! LOL No, just jesting....if non-autotuned recordings of Fergie were to slip out surely some heads would have to roll....... | |
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28th August 2009
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#29 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 6,697
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That is amature to have to use mp3s - but it should tell you where you are playing.
These 'competitions' are just marketing ploys - and give very little to the artist. If people fancy their hand and love the artist to be remixed - why not. However it is a mistake to think anything constructive might come out of it even if you win.
I stay away from remix contests now. I entered one once with Rennassance Records, UDG (record bags) and DJDownload.com to remix James Zabiela - an artist I liked at the time a few years ago.
I got the parts (.wav) for free. Did the remix and at the time was pleased as it was my first House track (coming from Breakbeats) - I was picked as one of 4 winners.
However after that communication dried up whilst Renaissance sold our remixes on DJ Download - I could not get hold of them, the secretaries refused to give me sales figuers, and we saw no sign of the £100 UDG Producer bag.
After 5 months of nothing I kicked up a fuss including the other artists in a group email to DjDownload. UDG and Rennaissance - and sent it from Universal Music where I was interning at the time CCing my Bosses who knew some of the concerned parties (to make them ashamed of such hack practice) - complaining about shoddy treatment.
Sure enough things kicked into action with various excuses and we finally got our shitty prize.
It was about the principal - Me, Greg Kobe, Rob Mooney and Justin Brody were used in a marketing move and then ignored whilst Renaissance and DJdownload made money out of our efforts. Perhaps Im too sensitive about this - I knew what I signed up for - but a lack of courtesey and respect made the whole experience a bad one. However Im sure not all label managers aren't as rude as Marcus James at Renassance.
If you want to do a remix - canvas some labels and get some remixes 'on spec'. That was if they do use your work - then you at least get paid.
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28th August 2009
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#30 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Nov 2007 Location: Berlin
Posts: 4,380
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No your not too sensitive, that was shit and all too common these days, especially with dance labels. I never do these kind of remixes either, basically its them getting something for nothing, sometimes they are stuck and don't like the remixes they had commissioned. The only value I see in these BP things is if your just starting out and need the practice. There are so so many (smaller) labels out there at the moment, all of whom need remixes, all you have to do is talk to them. I only do remixes if I really like the original, they are mates of mine or its a well known label/dj that I know will get attention. Cause at the end of the day in indy dance land you get f*ck all for your effort and time. And pay to play? No way.
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