Analog audio signal through digital device - Any sense?

mojito · 20th August 2009

Hi,

just got a Vermona DRM1 MKIII and I will sequence it by MIDI through Logic, so the audio signal will travel from the Vermona to the A/D conversors of my USB soundcard and then to Logic. The audio signal will turn to digital so my 2 questions are:

1) Will the analog sound of Vermona lose its "richness" once it's converted to digital? And if so, will it still be "better" (warmer, more frequencies, bla bla bla) than any other sound generated by a digital source (i.e. a softsynth)?

2) What should I do (equipment to look for...) to work with analog sound from the beginning to the end of a track creation process?

Thanks in advance!

Derp · 20th August 2009

I wouldn't worry too much about this kind of stuff. If you continue thinking that hard about how 'analog' your sound is, you'll just end up in a position one day where you've become an analog elitist snob that has 100% analog synths, hates MIDI, and has a tape deck to record to, but you never record anything because you're too concerned with making sure that nothing that could possibly have ones and zero's comes anywhere near your coveted musicamajig.

mojito · 20th August 2009

hahaha, yeah, i know that and i dont want to sound like i am an analog snob but, you know, i've been producing with logic, softsynths, vst fx, etc. for so many years and now i'm buying my first analog gear. So i want to know the answers to those questions just because i want to be careful with my sound, that's all.

thanks!

thehuman · 20th August 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojito

Hi,

just got a Vermona DRM1 MKIII and I will sequence it by MIDI through Logic, so the audio signal will travel from the Vermona to the A/D conversors of my USB soundcard and then to Logic. The audio signal will turn to digital so my 2 questions are:

1) Will the analog sound of Vermona lose its "richness" once it's converted to digital? And if so, will it still be "better" (warmer, more frequencies, bla bla bla) than any other sound generated by a digital source (i.e. a softsynth)?

2) What should I do (equipment to look for...) to work with analog sound from the beginning to the end of a track creation process?

Thanks in advance!

Have your ever heard an analog synth on a CD/mp3? Did it sound less good?

Brian! · 20th August 2009

Regardless of whether you're using analog or digital instruments, you should strive to capture the best quality signal prior to it entering the DAW.

mojito · 20th August 2009

are you pointing to good audio cables, good A/D conversors, mixer, etc.?

mojito · 20th August 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehuman

Have your ever heard an analog synth on a CD/mp3? Did it sound less good?

not on the CD (at least my ears are not that precise) but definitely on a MP3, not just the synth but the whole song. but i understand this is due to compression of the format.

~Zenshin Suru~ · 20th August 2009

Aside from sequencing your synth with software and recording it onto an analog tape machine, just concentrate on using the best signal path you can. If you don't have the money to get a nice 2 channel D.I. and super nice convertors, I recommend getting something like a Fireface800, which will work for a nice analog input and nice conversion. It's great to print to tape if you can, if not, just use the best analog front end and convertors that you can.

peglegjoe857 · 20th August 2009

A good pre-amp always helps keep things sounding good. some of what is said above is absolutely right though. the word "analog" doesn't really mean anything special.

I have to admit. I use a Tascam MSR-16, an analog Ramsa mixer, analog synthesizers and drum modules... etc... In fact I don't use a "computer" at all for my music production. But I definitely use digital things. I have vintage samplers that are digital. I have vintage digital reverbs and effects of sorts. I have synths that have digital control and DCO's. So my setup is pretty close to what you are talking about, even though it involves digital machines. My digital machines, though, all have a character that analog COULD NOT produce. 12-bit samplers... gritty reverbs.. that sort of thing. Digital is nothing to be afraid of, it's just how you use it.

To stay all analog you probably wouldn't even be able to do vinyl because chances are you would have to give the company that cuts the vinyl a CD.

But what happens with analog machines is that... like acoustic instruments... there are many more variables that effect the sound. Temp., the power of your house, the age of the unit and how components have broken down over time. They are instruments that you can often interact with more so, because digital machines tend to use buttons and whatnot. Also the frequencies in analog machines interact a lot more because of their imperfect/wavering voltages. It's small.. but the human ear is very sensitive to these kinds of things. Digital is often precise, and that is the problem. All of the frequencies are in perfect relation to one another so there is no humanistic qualities whatsoever. For some machines, this can be good! But then there are digital machines that are 12-bit and are not so perfect. Or 8-bit machines. I tell you, I have an ensoniq mirage and you can sample the exact same thing a million times and it will never come out the same! Digital can make mistakes too!

I am ranting... forgive me.

I remember when I heard about the zeroscillator. An analog oscillator that is stable enough to handle doing the kinds of FM modulations that VCO's could NEVER do. I thought... well that's pretty cool... but why would they do that when digital oscillators have always done FM so well... since the rev. 1 DX7? A VCO that has become SO perfect that it can do FM no longer has any of the venerable qualities of an Analog VCO and is now no better than a digital synthesizer.

I guess what I am getting at is that YES you shouldn't worry about this "analog" "digital" crap. Worry about finding a way of writing music that is inspiring to you. Worry about writing good songs. That is all that's important. If you find that Softs sound so shitty to you that you aren't inspired when writing with them... then ok, get some analog gear. Either way if you write good songs ... who cares what you use.

Odey · 23rd August 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojito

hahaha, yeah, i know that and i dont want to sound like i am an analog snob but, you know, i've been producing with logic, softsynths, vst fx, etc. for so many years and now i'm buying my first analog gear. So i want to know the answers to those questions just because i want to be careful with my sound, that's all.

thanks!

I think you are right to be concerned. You can't go back and re record hours/weeks/months of playing later when you work out that your sound card is a POS.

My advice is to have a high end preamp with a DI which will generally add more warmth to your signal and get converters that you are 100% happy with.

The difference between bad convertors in a crappy sound card and a dedicated 2 channel high end converter is HUGE... I have owned many bad sound cards over the years and they generally smear your recording with grit, slime and general nastiness.

Compared to a good converter which will make your recording sound crisp, open.. with a wide dynamic range... and just more true to how you intended it to sound.

Despite what people say here.. that it doesn't really matter.. Because IT DOES matter.

If you can't get the high end stuff then at least look into the affordable but quality options and research the other forums as these products get debated about alot.

As was mentioned in an earlier thread.. the fireface products are a good affordable option. If you want really great conversion look at LYNK and APOGEE If you want the best around then look at UA2192 or HEDD or PRISM But once you start getting into this price bracket.. the differences are subtle and they will all sound really good.

To sum up. Its absolutely fine to capture your sound to computer but you need a good preamp and convertor. You can always chuck it out to tape later to get that tape sound.

Also bear in mind that its what you do with your recordings from there that counts.. Digital mixing is a whole other kettle of fish!

Yoozer · 23rd August 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odey

I think you are right to be concerned. You can't go back and re record hours/weeks/months of playing later when you work out that your sound card is a POS.

But aren't you supposed to find out directly that it sounds like a POS if your soundcard is a POS? I mean, it's not like after weeks of recording suddenly one day you find out - "good god, this sounds like utter crap!".

Odey · 23rd August 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoozer

But aren't you supposed to find out directly that it sounds like a POS if your soundcard is a POS? I mean, it's not like after weeks of recording suddenly one day you find out - "good god, this sounds like utter crap!".

Why not? Its only when you compare how it could sound that you have a night and day moment.

Unless you hire in a load of converters and test them out.. how are you going to know what you are missing?

As soon as I upgraded my conversion.. I was pretty blown away. Slowly I have gone about re recording alot of parts tracked with my old setup.

If I could have avoided that.. it would have been better.

cl516 · 23rd August 2009

i think some richness will always be lost.
"how much" depends on the recording chain, and also the type of music - perhaps certain situations permit more 'analog richness loss' than others.

me, i don't get too stressed out about sending an analog synth into the DAW. i mean, i gotta record it somehow right? however, i'd really have to love the end result before i run any analog into something like a Virus TI2 for its effects.

20th August 2009	#1
mojito Gear Head Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 51 Thread Starter	Analog audio signal through digital device - Any sense? Hi, just got a Vermona DRM1 MKIII and I will sequence it by MIDI through Logic, so the audio signal will travel from the Vermona to the A/D conversors of my USB soundcard and then to Logic. The audio signal will turn to digital so my 2 questions are: 1) Will the analog sound of Vermona lose its "richness" once it's converted to digital? And if so, will it still be "better" (warmer, more frequencies, bla bla bla) than any other sound generated by a digital source (i.e. a softsynth)? 2) What should I do (equipment to look for...) to work with analog sound from the beginning to the end of a track creation process? Thanks in advance!

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20th August 2009	#2
Derp Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: SPACE!!! Posts: 2,757	I wouldn't worry too much about this kind of stuff. If you continue thinking that hard about how 'analog' your sound is, you'll just end up in a position one day where you've become an analog elitist snob that has 100% analog synths, hates MIDI, and has a tape deck to record to, but you never record anything because you're too concerned with making sure that nothing that could possibly have ones and zero's comes anywhere near your coveted musicamajig.

20th August 2009	#5
Brian! Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 2,092	Regardless of whether you're using analog or digital instruments, you should strive to capture the best quality signal prior to it entering the DAW.

20th August 2009	#8
~Zenshin Suru~ Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sebastopol, Ca Posts: 221	Aside from sequencing your synth with software and recording it onto an analog tape machine, just concentrate on using the best signal path you can. If you don't have the money to get a nice 2 channel D.I. and super nice convertors, I recommend getting something like a Fireface800, which will work for a nice analog input and nice conversion. It's great to print to tape if you can, if not, just use the best analog front end and convertors that you can.

20th August 2009	#9
peglegjoe857 Gear addict Join Date: May 2009 Location: San Antonio TX Posts: 371	A good pre-amp always helps keep things sounding good. some of what is said above is absolutely right though. the word "analog" doesn't really mean anything special. I have to admit. I use a Tascam MSR-16, an analog Ramsa mixer, analog synthesizers and drum modules... etc... In fact I don't use a "computer" at all for my music production. But I definitely use digital things. I have vintage samplers that are digital. I have vintage digital reverbs and effects of sorts. I have synths that have digital control and DCO's. So my setup is pretty close to what you are talking about, even though it involves digital machines. My digital machines, though, all have a character that analog COULD NOT produce. 12-bit samplers... gritty reverbs.. that sort of thing. Digital is nothing to be afraid of, it's just how you use it. To stay all analog you probably wouldn't even be able to do vinyl because chances are you would have to give the company that cuts the vinyl a CD. But what happens with analog machines is that... like acoustic instruments... there are many more variables that effect the sound. Temp., the power of your house, the age of the unit and how components have broken down over time. They are instruments that you can often interact with more so, because digital machines tend to use buttons and whatnot. Also the frequencies in analog machines interact a lot more because of their imperfect/wavering voltages. It's small.. but the human ear is very sensitive to these kinds of things. Digital is often precise, and that is the problem. All of the frequencies are in perfect relation to one another so there is no humanistic qualities whatsoever. For some machines, this can be good! But then there are digital machines that are 12-bit and are not so perfect. Or 8-bit machines. I tell you, I have an ensoniq mirage and you can sample the exact same thing a million times and it will never come out the same! Digital can make mistakes too! I am ranting... forgive me. I remember when I heard about the zeroscillator. An analog oscillator that is stable enough to handle doing the kinds of FM modulations that VCO's could NEVER do. I thought... well that's pretty cool... but why would they do that when digital oscillators have always done FM so well... since the rev. 1 DX7? A VCO that has become SO perfect that it can do FM no longer has any of the venerable qualities of an Analog VCO and is now no better than a digital synthesizer. I guess what I am getting at is that YES you shouldn't worry about this "analog" "digital" crap. Worry about finding a way of writing music that is inspiring to you. Worry about writing good songs. That is all that's important. If you find that Softs sound so shitty to you that you aren't inspired when writing with them... then ok, get some analog gear. Either way if you write good songs ... who cares what you use.

23rd August 2009	#13
cl516 Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,218	i think some richness will always be lost. "how much" depends on the recording chain, and also the type of music - perhaps certain situations permit more 'analog richness loss' than others. me, i don't get too stressed out about sending an analog synth into the DAW. i mean, i gotta record it somehow right? however, i'd really have to love the end result before i run any analog into something like a Virus TI2 for its effects.