What was the reason that the whole OASYS project failed??

[tapo200]

The Oasys keyboard is now discontiniued , that is fact. This is not
the first time , remember the old Oasys PCI card or Hartmans Neurons.

SO what are the reasons and what are you think about?

Reasons can be:

-to expensive (8000€) for the most people

-bad marketing, nobody in Europe knows what is an Oasys (that says all)

- no thirdparty support

- not well balanced because the Sequencer was from the beginning outdated and very limited.

- the hardware was from the beginning not up to date (p4 2,8GHz single core), because in the same year as the Oasys came out (2005) Microsoft
videogameconsole Xbox360 are also released with an 3 core CPU from IBM.
So why has a low price product like the Xbox a faster CPU then a high price product Oasys??

-useless for livegigs because the system are not stable, korgs bugfixing was not efficience enough

[Derp]

I think another major reason it failed was that it was buggy as all hell. There was one up for demo at Guitar Center, and anytime I tried the thing out, it would lock up.

[oldgearguy]

I guess the question of whether it failed or not can really only be answered by Korg. If they sold as many as they expected to, then it didn't fail.

Sometimes companies will release a product knowing it will only sell 1000 or 2000 total units. I don't believe Korg ever thought it would be as big a seller as the M1 or Triton or something.

[Beermaster]

For me it failed for several reasons.

One of the instant turn offs is the Cheesy you tube vids thats seem to focus on the OASYS being a bit of a preset pattern based home keyboard... "Hey Kids, Hold Down One Key and Hear the Synth play itself !....... Moronically tap the little pads to pretend that you're actually playing this shit yourself ! "

Gave the impression that the OASYS Is an 8K home keyboard.

[Stiff]

I wouldn't say nobody in Europe knows what it is (I do!) but heavily priced pieces like this can't be a hit, because there aren't enough rich people in the world.

Originally Posted by Beermaster

One of the instant turn offs is the Cheesy you tube vids thats seem to focus on the OASYS being a bit of a preset pattern based home keyboard... .

The power of Youtube
I've felt it myself. I've been on the verge of picking up either a Moog Voyager or start on a modular system. Of course I spend all morning youtubing after videos of them and almost all the videos of both turn me off incredibly. There never seems to be someone doing what I have in mind.

[crufty]

I hate to say it, but when I hear the OASYS I'm always reminded of Sea World / Disney / Theme park music you hear while waiting in line for a ride or an attraction. I know that is unfair.

What killed it for me was the price. But, I always thought if I had $8k to spend, I would want something with more then one midi out.

One thing Korg SHOULD do is sell the OASYS o/s so that people can build their own. THAT would be interesting.

[OurDarkness]

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Moreover, KORG has been making money from the OASYS platform since day one. They had the technology and they decided that they would give it little by little to the musicians so that they could milk the shit out of them. Several years ago, it would have been *sorta* revolutionary - today it's nothing but a workstation (although a good one).

Other than that, the mast majority of people uses computers, so I don't see why would anyone spend $8000 on the OASYS, when the same amount of money can buy some excellent gear that does a few things but does them extremely well.

I have already seen people selling them for less than $4000 and the interest is very low. I have a Triton Extreme (basically for KARMA and physical modeling) and I think I will never buy a KORG product again in my life.dfegad

[Electrocrisis]

The Oasis never impressed me much. It sounded like a Triton, had a big screen and recorded audio.

At that time I had the Triton studio and didn't really like it. I liked my Motif much better.

[shadowfac]

What makes you think it failed?

The development of the Oasys resulted in not only one product, but several, including Radias, R3, M3, M50, and microKorg XL.

I think that Korg's reasoning behind the Oasys could have been like this: let's develop one big ass do-it-all synth that'll become an object of desire... and then use that technology in all our new synths for the next 10 years.

Here's some snippets of the current Korg synths marketing babble:

Radias: The heart of RADIAS beats with Korg’s cutting-edge MMT (Multi Modeling Technology) synth engine, and borrows much of its modeling techniques from Korg’s flagship OASYS.

M3: The M3 features a number of innovations distilled from the flagship OASYS including the new EDS (Enhanced Definition Synthesis) sound generator derived from the HD-1 engine design.

M50: Just as the M3 borrowed elements from the legendary OASYS, the M50 captures all the sonic firepower of the M3, distilled into a performance instrument that is second to none.


And if that wasn't enough, Korg is still milking the Triton and Z1 engines in products like the microKorg, microX, and TR line.

So, I really don't think Korg will lose any money from the Oasys R&D.

[Electrocrisis]

Originally Posted by shadowfac

What makes you think it failed?

The development of the Oasys resulted in not only one product, but several, including Radias, R3, M3, M50, and microKorg XL.

I think that Korg's reasoning behind the Oasys could have been like this: let's develop one big ass do-it-all synth that'll become an object of desire... and then use that technology in all our new synths for the next 10 years.

Here's some snippets of the current Korg synths marketing babble:

Radias: The heart of RADIAS beats with Korg’s cutting-edge MMT (Multi Modeling Technology) synth engine, and borrows much of its modeling techniques from Korg’s flagship OASYS.

M3: The M3 features a number of innovations distilled from the flagship OASYS including the new EDS (Enhanced Definition Synthesis) sound generator derived from the HD-1 engine design.

M50: Just as the M3 borrowed elements from the legendary OASYS, the M50 captures all the sonic firepower of the M3, distilled into a performance instrument that is second to none.


And if that wasn't enough, Korg is still milking the Triton and Z1 engines in products like the microKorg, microX, and TR line.

So, I really don't think Korg will lose any money from the Oasys R&D.

With all that and it still sounded like a Triton.

[shadowfac]

Originally Posted by Electrocrisis

With all that and it still sounded like a Triton.

Well, of course! Otherwise people who "upgraded" to the Oasys would complain it didn't sound like a Triton. tutt

We slutz are one tough crowd.

[ukm]

Originally Posted by OurDarkness

Jack of all trades, master of none.

That is exactly the point.
I stopped using workstations in 2000 - never had the feeling I needed a new one.

ukm

[James Meeker]

Not sure if I'd consider it a failure, but I can tell you why it didn't appeal to me as a viable product:

1.) Too pricey
2.) Outdated concept--just an extension of a 90's workstation
3.) "Closed system"
4.) You can accomplish the same thing or better with a DAW and softsynths of your choice... probably with better results.
5.) Reliability was suspect
6.) You knew that it wouldnt' be supported for very long--just like every wundersynth Korg has put out lately
7.) In 5 years it would be pointless because computing/software power would have increased 10 fold

[Dirty Halo]

This is an interesting thread because over a year ago, there was an EXTENSIVE hread on the Oasys and I was one of the ONLY people asking these exact questions.

Do you have ANY idea how much crap I got for saying ALL these same things?!!!

INCLUDING Korg who defended their product to the end (and understandbly), but even then, I pointed out that their stance is understandable, but the real value would be in the trickle down technology into others keys (as pointed out here).

Well, despite my stance, time has proven us correct.

Out of ALL the arguments I made, perhaps the most succinct is what someone else said here, "Jack of all trades, master of none," especially in an age where most people don't need a workstation DAW when they have Logic or Pro Tools, etc.

Wow... the crap I got! NOW look at it (and NO, id di NOT do what they hoped, despite what their PR spin machine says... and hey, I like many of Korg's products, btw)


-andrews

[andrewsc]

I don't know much about the Oasys workstation, but I'll say Oasys PCI can be an amazing and unique sound source if you really dig into it. It is an open system (you just need to sign an NDA and get synthkit) and 3rd party developers are still releasing compelling synths and fx here and there. The modulation capabilities and huge array of physical modelling and other algorithms are not found elsewhere, so you can get a vast range of interesting sounds out of it. It takes alot of work to sift through all the options and potential distractions, and not many people will be willing to put up with the older OS requirements, and some other quirks it has, but its a real dsp gem in the right hands.

[tapo200]

Originally Posted by Beermaster

For me it failed for several reasons.

One of the instant turn offs is the Cheesy you tube vids thats seem to focus on the OASYS being a bit of a preset pattern based home keyboard... "Hey Kids, Hold Down One Key and Hear the Synth play itself !....... Moronically tap the little pads to pretend that you're actually playing this shit yourself ! "

Gave the impression that the OASYS Is an 8K home keyboard.

I dont think that the sound was the problem Karma-Lab :: KL Media Player , the sound of the Oasys is crisp and punchy, it is nothing like the Triton, maybe some samples . Karo had create some cool samplespacks for the Oasys http://www.karo-sounds.com/web/mp3/Demo2ga.mp3
http://www.karo-sounds.com/web/mp3/Demo1dc.mp3

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

This is an interesting thread because over a year ago, there was an EXTENSIVE hread on the Oasys and I was one of the ONLY people asking these exact questions.

I empathize. I got beat up for making the same observations when it came out on another site. I really got beat up by a guy I know who works for Korg and worked on the OASYS.

Oh well.

[Beermaster]

Originally Posted by tapo200

I dont think that the sound was the problem Karma-Lab :: KL Media Player , the sound of the Oasys is crisp and punchy, it is nothing like the Triton, maybe some samples . Karo had create some cool samplespacks for the Oasys http://www.karo-sounds.com/web/mp3/Demo2ga.mp3
http://www.karo-sounds.com/web/mp3/Demo1dc.mp3

I wasn't talking about individual sound and sample quality but the moronic idea of creating a high end all bells and whistles synth that has these riffs and amateur auto-accompaniment style pre-programmed sequences which I personally think turns the thing into a toy. Why pay all the dough for a toy.

[Dubreak]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet:


Michael Lauer - Freelancer / Korg Oasys

The Original Oasys project..? The one that gave rise to the development of the Z1, Prophecy, MS2000, MicroKorg, Electribe machines et all..?

I'm sure we'll see another Oasys, (Oasis? Oasos? Oasus? Oases?) the next time public opinion screams about the lack of new inventions coming from Korgs RD department.

Is the clue not obvious enough in it's naming convention..?

[OurDarkness]

LOL,

what do you mean when you say KORG RD department?

They bought physical modeling from Yamaha, they bought vector synthesis from Yamaha who bought it from Sequential, they bought the KARMA technology...

[Dubreak]

I heard that they throw all the boffins into a small room with a load of pencils/paper and don't let them out until some invention including the letters O, A & S appears. Now whether that room is sealed off from the outside world is a different story...

btw don't let Stephen Kay hear you bad-mouth his 'invention', haha! He has an army of wedding cover-bands at his beck and call. Eek!

[tapo200]

Originally Posted by Beermaster

I wasn't talking about individual sound and sample quality but the moronic idea of creating a high end all bells and whistles synth that has these riffs and amateur auto-accompaniment style pre-programmed sequences which I personally think turns the thing into a toy. Why pay all the dough for a toy.

The Oasys was made for liveperformance, that was the idea and for that
the Karmafunction make sense. It is not a simple auto-accompaniment , you can create Modsequences( automation of programm and effectparameters) , changing Drumgrooves in realtime or you can play Guitarriffs on a keyboard etc.

With the external Karmasoftware you can create your own Karmagrooves with 400 parameters and 32 scenes like the new Karmasoftware in the Open Laps Workstation.

Karma-Lab :: KARMA Oasys Software




"

• Complete access to the 400+ parameters making up a KARMA GE (Generated Effect). These parameters are mostly hidden in the OASYS with a maximum of 32 being available (per GE), but you can view and edit all of them using the software, along with the Performance parameters associated with each KARMA Module.
• Graphical editing and creation of Drum Patterns, Rhythm Patterns, Duration Patterns, Index Patterns, Cluster Patterns, Velocity Patterns, CC Patterns, Wave-Sequence Patterns, Envelopes, Note Maps, and more!
• Create new GEs, and edit existing GEs into new configurations. Download the GEs to the OASYS via MIDI SysEx Dump, or via export to a .KGE file.
• One-step MIDI (SysEx) upload/download of Programs and Combis.
• Import phrases and drum grooves from the OASYS's internal sequencer, or from any .MID source (such as external sequencers) and transform them into KARMA GEs. Automatically assign GE Parameters and RTC Models and instantly begin varying your phrase in the amazingly interactive KARMA manner.

It is more than a "Band in a Box"
Karma-Lab :: What Is KARMA?

• to make it easy to achieve some of the effects that are traditionally difficult for keyboard players to emulate, such as:

• convincing harp glissandos
• convincing guitar strumming and finger-picking
• convincing electric guitar hammer-ons and two-handed techniques (i.e. Van Halen and other famous guitarists)
• convincing ethnic bending and playing techniques
• convincing classical and technique-intensive piano effects and cadenzas

• to create new effects for dance and other current styles of music, such as:

• infinitely variable arpeggios, wildly panning about
• radical and diverse real-time tonal control of sound parameters
• “gating of a track with a hi-hat” type effects going far beyond the current range
• automatic pitch-bending techniques which allow notes and clusters of notes to bend and glide

• to realize sound design through MIDI, such as turning a single key press on a keyboard into a wild flurry of randomly pitched bells which bend and twist as they sustain.
• to generate drum, bass, and accompaniment grooves which can be randomly varied and produce more human, less mechanical performances.

[shadowfac]

Originally Posted by Dubreak

The Original Oasys project..? The one that gave rise to the development of the Z1, Prophecy, MS2000, MicroKorg, Electribe machines et all..?

That's what I was talking about. It's actually not a bad business model when you think about it: do a shitload of R&D for a product that may not sell well, but will spawn a whole new generation of products that will appeal different people.

Just imagine if, for example, John Bowen decided to do a similar thing with the Solaris. There would be the full-fledged Solaris for those who can afford it, but also a series of cheaper synths that borrow some of its guts from the solaris and add a few bits here and there. Not only they will appeal a broader market, but also they will serve as a taste of the full thing and people may eventually feel the need to upgrade.

[Dubreak]

Originally Posted by tapo200

Karma-Lab :: KARMA Oasys Software

Nice idea, but it still needs an $8000 dongle.

[tapo200]

Originally Posted by Dubreak

Nice idea, but it still needs an $8000 dongle.

[plaid_emu]

Originally Posted by tapo200

The Oasys was made for liveperformance, that was the idea and for that the Karmafunction make sense.

Live performance!?!?!? It's as big as an aircraft carrier and probably weighs almost as much. Just the thought of having to haul that thing from gig to gig is making me tired.

Of course compared to the rigs some of you lunatics haul around, an Oasys might be a lighter, more compact option!

[Popbott]

Originally Posted by tapo200

SO what are the reasons and what are you think about?

- not well balanced because the Sequencer was from the beginning outdated and very limited.

The sequecner is the one thing I like about the Oasys. I have been using the Triton sequencer for years begining with my O1W-FD and I don't find it limiting at all. There are many different ways to automate anything from loudness, panning to portamento effects.

On the Oasys DSP power, I was REALLY surprised that when going into sequencer mode or multi-mode (where you have 16 multi-timbral parts at your finger-tips), the effects routing was nice, but still VERY limited like on a Triton. For $8K this was a serious let down when my Virus TI does full effects retaining programs on each of it's 16 channels out of the box. On the Oasys/Triton/O1W-FD you can copy effects from a single program into multi-mode, but it ends up eating all of your most buses and limiting the amount of effects you are able to use.

[Dirty Halo]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

I empathize. I got beat up for making the same observations when it came out on another site. I really got beat up by a guy I know who works for Korg and worked on the OASYS.

Oh well.

yep, exactly. I believe his name is dan Phillips... you would not believe how angry and defensive that crowd got... guess I pissed off the "wedding singer" crowd by pointing out the ugly truth about their over-priced sing-along machine.

I simply pointed out why I felt it wasn't a good design and product idea, but they would not hear it... now time tells the truth.

It was discontinued.
It did not sell well.
Don't exactly hear people talking about it as a "classic"


-andrews

[Dan Phillips]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

yep, exactly. I believe his name is dan Phillips... you would not believe how angry and defensive that crowd got... guess I pissed off the "wedding singer" crowd by pointing out the ugly truth about their over-priced sing-along machine.

For some different perspectives, see:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/4058829-post192.html
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/3924710-post186.html

- Dan

Edit: the whole thread is worth a read:
IS the Oasis worth it?

[Dan Phillips]

Originally Posted by OurDarkness

LOL,

what do you mean when you say KORG RD department?

Probably Korg R&D in California - the group I work with.

Originally Posted by OurDarkness

They bought physical modeling from Yamaha,

Stanford's CCRMA holds patents for aspects of waveguide synthesis
technology. Korg R&D started working with waveguides around 1990, creating our own models, used in released instruments as below. The Stanford patents are licensed by a company named Staccato; Korg holds a sublicense under Yamaha's Sondius-XG. (Confusing, huh?)

The patents in question apply specifically to some basic mechanisms of the
waveguide synthesis method. Korg's proprietary physical models of wind, brass, vocal, and plucked string instruments (as in the Trinity/Triton MOSS, OASYS PCI, and the new STR-1 plucked string model for the OASYS) use these mechanisms as *parts* of these algorithms, so we need to license the associated patents.

Originally Posted by OurDarkness

they bought vector synthesis from Yamaha who bought it from Sequential,

The Sequential team became Yamaha DSD, which then became...Korg R&D.

Re success or failure of the OASYS itself: the instrument was announced in Jan 2005, and sold for four years with almost no change in MAP pricing (76-key went from $8k to $7.5k). Make of that what you will, but not many synths do the same.

- Dan