9 year old kid: what HW or SW to buy him to make music?

[Beermaster]

Originally Posted by Swami Digital

Not at all actually. It's not a toy at all, but the multiple modes of feedback (both visual and auditory) help children understand music a great deal. And most importantly, they find it more fun than traditional lessons, which means they keep at it. It even helps open up more interest in traditional lessons. (Which, while I agree are the best thing for a child, they don't often enjoy them.)

I agree it is a mesmerizing thing that is a whole lot of fun but so is a playstation or a PSP - It doesn't translate into the real world very easily but it does lock the beginner into thinking in loops of diatonic paterns - For fun, this is great - to actually advance very far is not going to be easy nor is transfering from a button matrix to a chromatic keyboard helpful.

Many Kids give up because they don't want to practice during the week - just as most kids don't want to do home work and dislike their school teachers - The parents need to excite and inspire the kids to learn and make them proud of their progress. It's the same with learning an instrument.

Originally Posted by Swami Digital

As an example, my aunt and uncle wanted their son to learn piano. He started and stopped lessons twice (once because he got a bad teacher and the other time because he just lost interest and didn't want to learn anymore). They were dismayed because he has a lot of interest in music, but just didn't seem interested in lessons. I brought him over to my studio a few times, and the first thing that caught his eye was the Tenori-on. I let him borrow it, and he played with it for hours creating songs. He learned a lot about structure and relationships of sounds in intervals from it. He also learned about how different sounds fit together in a song because of it.

Eventually, he started using it with Garage Band (with my help) and from there he got interested in piano lessons again. Sometimes, you really have to consider how to motivate and get a child interested rather than what would be the 'ideal' starting point. Once they are really motivated, then they are much more willing to dedicate themselves.

-D

I think that it's you as his teacher/mentor that have inspired him here more than the Tenori

[Transistor]

Originally Posted by msl

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Reason, I think it's a great, easy to learn starting point. All the patching and routing that you can do between synths and the mixer will give him a good idea for hardware and synthesis later. He can then step up to a full blown DAW easier.

Good call. I did just that with a ten year old last year, and he's progressing fast!

r,
j,

[submodern]

Beer has dismissed the Tenori-On before as just a "toy", which is fine, he's used one and didn't like it so he's entitled to his opinion. Obviously, he didn't click with it.

I've used a Tenori-On too, though, and I agree with those who are recommending it. The price is obviously a big, big drawback. It may simply be unrealistic to spend that much money for what you're trying to do, and there's no counter-argument if that's the case.

Other than the price, the Tenori-On is a lot of fun to use and can be very inspiring, even for an adult musician. I like it because I can set it down on a table outside of my studio and just randomly pick it up and play with it for 15 minutes at a time whenever inspiration strikes. Do this often enough and soon you will have a bunch of song ideas to work with. I like this much better than having to go into the studio and power everything up before being able to do anything, it's like being a writer and having a notebook beside your bed that you can scribble down your random late night thoughts into.

Above all though it is fun and simple to use, so the chances a kid will enjoy it enough to keep using it are pretty good.

It's also very easy to record the results and then make something more with them. I'm doing just that right now and it is going fast and is fun, in contrast to other projects I've worked on that were a lot more time consuming and stressful. Some of the early demos are up here Art Kerns on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos if you're interested in hearing what it sounds like. I will admit the Tenori has a rather limited sound palette, and more limited sampling ability than I'd like. Limitations can be a good thing though, especially when you're just starting out.

I also love the Electribe EMX-1 as an all in one sketchpad. If that was too complicated for him maybe you could still use it, but help by giving him basic patterns to start with, or pre-programming the synths for him, or something along those lines. Having him focus on only one function at a time (sequencing, synthesis, effects, etc) might make things easier.

Whatever you decide it's very cool that you are doing this! I wish I'd had similar encouragement, as it was I got piano lessons, quit them quickly, and then didn't start making music for fifteen years...

[yikesboy]

Yikesboy says that the choice made now will likely be a determining factor for any future interest in musical production, so choose well!
Mac or PC is not really an issue with product from Digidesign (Pro Tools) or Steinberg (Cubase) as they ship with both flavors on the installers. However, if you're like me, I can't devote a computer solely to recording and find that the Mac is worth every penny as a stable platform that allows me to do other things in my life without worrying about performance and security issues. In other words, life is too short for Windows (so far anyway even though Windows 7 does look promising...) and I'd recommend that don't consider Sonar and other Window-only DAWs.
My personal choice is Cubase as not only does it sound noticeably better than it's competitors but it also is a very full featured and relatively easy program to use that doesn't force you to buy proprietary hardware!

Yikesboy's 2 cents for your consideration.

[cynic]

wait till 2010 and get him one of these things >

Teenage Engineering

Create Digital Music » Teenage Engineering OP-1: Insanely Slick, Pocketable Controller + Synth

[kraku]

Lots of excellent points here which make me look at this issue from many different new angles.

Many of you have suggested Tenori-On which I've also considered but decided against it because of it's price :( It could have been really inspiring and educational gadget for my nephew.

Maybe I'll wait till he visits me next time and I'll show him different instruments in my home studio. I already have:
- bunch of synths
- a groovebox
- HW sequencer
- computer + Logic + Live + soft synths
- an electric guitar
- an electric bass
- an electric drum kit
- three harmonicas

If he can try them out on his own time and pace, maybe I'll get more important info on this issue.

[Swami Digital]

Originally Posted by Beermaster

I think that it's you as his teacher/mentor that have inspired him here more than the Tenori

It is a valid point that unless a child has a mentor that knows how to motivate/guide them, then it's all moot. I think part of that, however, is showing them ways in which music can be 'cool' and fun. This sometimes means starting them off with something other than traditional music lessons. It's also of utmost importance to select the type of teachers that understand this as well.

I also think that some of you underestimate how quickly children pick things up. Some of the suggestions may seem a bit complex, but with the right kind of help, they pick it right up. I guess I agree with Beermaster in that it's more the mentors and teachers involved, than the tools themselves.

-D

[Swami Digital]

Originally Posted by kraku

Maybe I'll wait till he visits me next time and I'll show him different instruments in my home studio. I already have:
- bunch of synths
- a groovebox
- HW sequencer
- computer + Logic + Live + soft synths
- an electric guitar
- an electric bass
- an electric drum kit
- three harmonicas

If he can try them out on his own time and pace, maybe I'll get more important info on this issue.

Definitely the way to go.

[Swami Digital]

Edited: Doh, double post.

[crufty]

Might want to add guitar hero: metallica on to that list, at least.

don't laugh until you try it...

though the acid key sounds are a little weak, i was impressed for what $50-$60 gets you.

a 4yr old could 'compose' with it.

[MrWally]

Get Fl Studio

[djreality]

I started with reason 2.0 when i was 12 years old and now i'm 16 !!!. Buy him a second hand mac, and reason little or something like that

[dz81]

as for hardware i' go for the yamaha rm1x over the roland mc303
(i used to own both) in my opinion the rm1x is much more versatile
& easier to use.

i've also lent them to friends kids in the past (though a bit older than yours),
& they got on better with the rm1x mainly because of the decent sized screen plus midi implementation is vastly superior (for maybe later connecting
to a computer with a basic version of cubase/logic etc.)

regards

dz81

[badmark]

+ 1 on the Korg DS 10! It really is very good, and the new DS should make the sound quality even better.

[Beermaster]

Originally Posted by crufty

Might want to add guitar hero: metallica on to that list, at least.

don't laugh until you try it...

though the acid key sounds are a little weak, i was impressed for what $50-$60 gets you.

a 4yr old could 'compose' with it.

Haa ha - Good one Crufty !

[crufty]

Originally Posted by Beermaster

Haa ha - Good one Crufty !

Seriously...my 4 yr old was jamming out. You can dial in an auto-bass and auto-drum . Put the 2 yr old on rhythm guitar and the 5 yr old cousin on mic. It was funny.

YouTube - E3 2008: Guitar Hero World tour Creating songs - Part 2

It's crazy deep and simple. I was floored.

When I first started many moons ago it was with trackers. This is way easier and a lot less discouraging. You can setup an electro beat, pick out a bass line and setup your guitar fx and start laying down tracks. It's pretty nuts.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by crufty

guitar hero IV

[kraku]

Alrighty! Here's an update how things are going after a few months. This is what happened:

I decided to borrow my Korg EMX-1 groovebox to my nephew. The logic behind it was that he already seemed to be interested in it and it has lots of interesting flashing buttons and knobs to tweak. It's very hands-on so he can pretty easily create his own drum beats with it. My sister says that the kid has been making beats with it quite often and has also developed an interest in his home keyboard which he previously didn't like at all!

That's a good sign! :)

I haven't heard what kind of noise he's currently making, so that's something I have to figure out soon. I don't believe he has learned how to create melodies/basslines yet. That's something I want to teach him by linking the groovebox to his home keyboard and showing him how to sequence external gear :) After he learns that, I'll teach him the basics of Garageband. Hopefully I get that far before he gets bored with the thing...

[spol]

Fruityloops
Novation X-Station
Behringer Truth Monitors

[vyedmic]

Sorry but when he's nine I would get him the most complicated thing without breaking the bank = Nord Micro Modular.

[Beermaster]

Originally Posted by kraku

Alrighty! Here's an update how things are going after a few months. This is what happened:

I haven't heard what kind of noise he's currently making, so that's something I have to figure out soon. I don't believe he has learned how to create melodies/basslines yet. That's something I want to teach him by linking the groovebox to his home keyboard and showing him how to sequence external gear :) After he learns that, I'll teach him the basics of Garageband. Hopefully I get that far before he gets bored with the thing...

Oh dear,

I'm sure he'll have a few hours fun trying to make melodies with a keyboard and absolutely no idea why or how.

He's young enough to learn properly and he has enough years ahead of him to really become an accomplished musician with the talent to be able to make great music way ahead of the average dumb stuff that most people churn out. Give him a chance by spending that money on some proper lessons. Learning how to hook equipment up and use plugins and patches and other production techniques before learning even the basics of music theory and how to play is totally pointless and the wrong way round.

Its easy to learn to use the gear but it takes real time and dedication to learn about music. Don't put him off by making it seem like he's learning the important stuff by focussing on the gear when the hard thing is learning about the music.

One way is a dead end with short term results but long term confusion the other is a lifetime of learning but always with better and better results and understanding and ultimately a future talent worth talking about !

[networkacid]

Yeah, now that he has a taste for it, and especially since he's now showing interest in the keyboard it's probably the right time to think about lessons.

[shaft9000]

Originally Posted by Beermaster

Its easy to learn to use the gear but it takes real time and dedication to learn about music. Don't put him off by making it seem like he's learning the important stuff by focussing on the gear when the hard thing is learning about the music.

agreed 100%
Consistent practice of the FUNDAMENTALS are the key to success in any endeavor.
I had 5+ yrs of piano first, and have since been able to learn at least a dozen more instruments with relative ease.
It enabled me to teach myself guitar and develop a signature style. Vocals became cake after a few yrs of study. horns, percussion, bass guitar, synths etc all come naturally to me now, because I can apply fundamental knowledge to whatever i pick up, usually.

So who knows...perhaps another week of frustration trying to 'make melodies/harmonies' [or not] alongside the EMX-1 might pique his interest in some fundamental knowledge.

[Mantik]

give him a synthesizer with a keyboard and some knobs to screw.

he will get addicted or not.

[Beermaster]

Originally Posted by Mantik

give him a synthesizer with a keyboard and some knobs to screw.

he will get addicted or not.

Well I guess that will be a not then.

This is exactly the sort of mistake so many parents make with their children. It's like giving an illiterate kid some magazines and paperbacks and expecting him to work out how to read ...

Education is the only answer. Learn to speak the language of music.

If not the kid will either get bored straight away or he'll have a spark of interest but no way of improving to any great degree.

So many people out there have never really learned anything about the language of music so they get stuck with using three letter words in sentences that don't make sense.

Let him learn the language ! ! !

Beer

[schnerg]

i'll chime in with the piano and piano lessons.

if he really wants something 'electronic' get a keyboard with a sequencer and let that be a part of lessons, but make sure that theory and piano are in there.

the younger you can get basic piano theory the better, it may be something they hate now but in ten years when they want to be in a band and can pick up any instruments, or understand composition and theory and can apply to the styles of music they like, it will pay off in spades