limiter or multiband compressor on the master bus?

[thecity]

Hi!
What do you use on the master bus to get your track levels up? I have just mixed a track (excerpt: zSHARE - acidtrax_bus.wav ) and want to get it ready to be sent out to djs for promotion. Since the rms is around 10 and most club tracks have between 4 and 6 I need to compress or limit it, but I don't know what to use, simple compression, multiband compression or limiting. This isn't meant as the final mastering, but I want to be able to send out tracks and have it at equals levels as other tracks, so that djs can just play it.
How do you do it?

[Delta Heavy]

Originally Posted by wazun

Hi!
What do you use on the master bus to get your track levels up? I have just mixed a track (excerpt: zSHARE - acidtrax_bus.wav ) and want to get it ready to be sent out to djs for promotion. Since the rms is around 10 and most club tracks have between 4 and 6 I need to compress or limit it, but I don't know what to use, simple compression, multiband compression or limiting. This isn't meant as the final mastering, but I want to be able to send out tracks and have it at equals levels as other tracks, so that djs can just play it.
How do you do it?

rms of -4 ?

[Delta Heavy]

if you don't know what to use, you probably shouldn't be throwing stuff like multibands on

-10 rms is fairly squashed already, if you feel you need to go louder just use a limiter and don't do more than 2 db of gain reduction, more will sound like shit

and please use your ears, don't just try and visually match rms levels, its a recipe for disaster

[thecity]

Sorry, I meant -10, -6 and -4 rms. Would you say that the mix sounds squashed? I know that I can't get it to the levels of professionally mastered tracks, but I want to get it as loud as possible without sacrificing the sound quality. I tried it with a compressor with a threshold of -15, soft knee and a very low ratio, 1:1.3 , but somehow the end part sounded as loud as the previous part with bass and more sounds playing, so I think I've done something wrong. A friend told me,I had phase problems, but I couldn't find anything.

[Delta Heavy]

Originally Posted by wazun

Sorry, I meant -10, -6 and -4 rms. Would you say that the mix sounds squashed? I know that I can't get it to the levels of professionally mastered tracks, but I want to get it as loud as possible without sacrificing the sound quality. I tried it with a compressor with a threshold of -15, soft knee and a very low ratio, 1:1.3 , but somehow the end part sounded as loud as the previous part with bass and more sounds playing, so I think I've done something wrong. A friend told me,I had phase problems, but I couldn't find anything.

hi

yes i understood that you meant -4, that is ridiculous

i can't listen to the mix right now i'm afraid

quality is always going to be sacrificed with this quest for loudness, especially if you are aiming for -6 rms

[Mans]

-4 is ridiculous indeed. Most of the squashed tracks you hear on labels like mau5trap are around -9. You can use a limiter at the very end to boost the rms up 2 points or so.

[JCM]

Those levels you write about most be peak rms readings. If you want to compete with songs that are professionally mastered , get yours professionally mastered.

[Mans]

Originally Posted by JCM

Those levels you write about most be peak rms readings. If you want to compete with songs that are professionally mastered , get yours professionally mastered.

There's really no need for this. In contrary to what some here believe a lot of the club tunes are mastered itb by the artists themselves. I use the term 'mastered' here loosely because to them the processes mixing and mastering are not seperate. Deadmau5, laidback luke, angello, etc all do it this way. So if that's the sound you're after there's no need to get your mix mastered by a third party.

[thecity]

Originally Posted by JCM

Those levels you write about most be peak rms readings. If you want to compete with songs that are professionally mastered , get yours professionally mastered.

I know, my intention is to get prepare a mixdown, so that it can be played on a club soundsystem. I can't send every track I make to mastering, so having them played out somewhere helps me promote myself and generate interest in my tracks, so I can have those mastered that a label wants to put out.

[digital 1010]

Just for club testing try something - like
Ozone
MPL-1 Se
waves l3
etc
etc

First get a really good mix then load a ref track you want to match into itunes or whatever you use and turn it down till the level matches your daw track. Now try and get your mix to sound as punchy and fat as the ref track and work hard on this. If the ref track is still louder than yours turn it down more till they match and sort your mix. Even do this at a really low volume for a guide on whats jumping out

Then when you are happy with the mix turn your ref track up or just jump in with a limiter plugin
Set the ceiling limit at -0.3 db then slowly work threshold down checking the amount of Gain reduction and most importantly using your ears. You will find depending on the limiter it starts to break up and quality goes to pot and the punch and image start to go as you push it past -9 rms if you are hitting it with too much gain reduction say more than 4db you need to look at your mix first really(Im talking about home mastering for club testing here not for anything else).

I really woudlnt go past -9 or -8 if i was you because at the end of the day a dj has a gain knob on his mixer and id rather have a few db missing than a harsh blasted mix.

You WONT unless incredibly skilled or lucky match the ref track if its good doing this as that as above is what proper mastering is for, but it should put you in the ball park for testing in clubs. If it doesn't - go back to your mix and look at things like bottom end, dont just smack the limiter harder.

Of course if you want that justice type sound ignore everything i said and smash the living pants out of it and pump it like a pumpy thing

This purely a raw really rough and ready round the edges for testing in a club method only. If your mix is good you shouldnt have to do much anyway.

Ben

[digital 1010]

Now ill go hide under a stone for helping keep the loudness wars going

[JCM]

wazun I understand what you are saying. It's a catch 22 situation. Most labels these days only do promotion and distribution , so they are looking for a finished product , leaving the artist to front a production cost that may be reimbursed to them once a deal is signed. On the other hand , if you present your music un-mastered you'll be at a disadvantage with your competitors making it harder to promote and generate interest. It hardly seems fair , especially if the only difference between you and the competition is a difference in level.

If you want to do it yourself , be prepared as it takes a while to learn and become proficient at mastering.

If money is the issue , ask around , most mastering engineers have reasonable rates for unsigned artists. Then be present at the session and pay attention.

[tlennon]

Originally Posted by digital 1010

Now ill go hide under a stone for helping keep the loudness wars going

LOL Digital...... this is a good post Wazun. Very interesting.

[digital 1010]

Originally Posted by tlennon

LOL Digital...... this is a good post Wazun. Very interesting.

I'd probably get shot in the head for saying such things in the mastering section.Mastering is an art and maths qualification all in 1 if you ask me. I don't get half the stuff those guys discuss.

Like i said mine is the dirty DIY method for club testing,

Ben

[thecity]

Originally Posted by digital 1010

Just for club testing try something - like
Ozone
MPL-1 Se
waves l3
etc
etc

First get a really good mix then load a ref track you want to match into itunes or whatever you use and turn it down till the level matches your daw track. Now try and get your mix to sound as punchy and fat as the ref track and work hard on this. If the ref track is still louder than yours turn it down more till they match and sort your mix. Even do this at a really low volume for a guide on whats jumping out

Then when you are happy with the mix turn your ref track up or just jump in with a limiter plugin
Set the ceiling limit at -0.3 db then slowly work threshold down checking the amount of Gain reduction and most importantly using your ears. You will find depending on the limiter it starts to break up and quality goes to pot and the punch and image start to go as you push it past -9 rms if you are hitting it with too much gain reduction say more than 4db you need to look at your mix first really(Im talking about home mastering for club testing here not for anything else).

I really woudlnt go past -9 or -8 if i was you because at the end of the day a dj has a gain knob on his mixer and id rather have a few db missing than a harsh blasted mix.

You WONT unless incredibly skilled or lucky match the ref track if its good doing this as that as above is what proper mastering is for, but it should put you in the ball park for testing in clubs. If it doesn't - go back to your mix and look at things like bottom end, dont just smack the limiter harder.

Of course if you want that justice type sound ignore everything i said and smash the living pants out of it and pump it like a pumpy thing

This purely a raw really rough and ready round the edges for testing in a club method only. If your mix is good you shouldnt have to do much anyway.

Ben

Thanks for the tips, I'll try another run on my mix tonight.
The sample in my first post is actually from my final mixdown, any feedback is highly appreciated!

[SWAN808]

yeah this is not an unusual predicament for dance music producers - as you're not gonna want to pay for every track to be mastered - you may just want to try out a 'work in progress' on the floor or some bootleg etc...

I think in dance music the concept of 'mastering' needent be the same as say in other forms of music or if you are producing an album - as in the end with a dance track you can mix it how you want it to sound on the floor - as many do as said above....rather than giving the final control to a 3rd party...

I have been considering this aspect recently and I am going to try out this plugin:

Pro Audio DSP - Professional Audio Plugins for Audio Units and Pro Tools

It seems to be a fantastic solution for rough masters as you can even take a snapshot of

a reference track and apply that EQ and dynamic flava. Pretty cool. And its fairly easy to use - you can do a lot of damage if you dont know what youre doing with a Multiband compressor. Plus it contains a limiter. Rude to ask for much more than that from £200....

[Delta Heavy]

Originally Posted by SWAN808

I have been considering this aspect recently and I am going to try out this plugin:

Pro Audio DSP - Professional Audio Plugins for Audio Units and Pro Tools

It seems to be a fantastic solution for rough masters as you can even take a snapshot of

a reference track and apply that EQ and dynamic flava. Pretty cool. And its fairly easy to use - you can do a lot of damage if you dont know what youre doing with a Multiband compressor. Plus it contains a limiter. Rude to ask for much more than that from £200....

its a very cool plugin...just don't expect any magic tricks

[Eric J]

I just recently had a sort of epiphany with this exact subject. For years, I had always heard never to have anything on the master bus. Then, a few months ago, there was a similar discussion to this one on another forum and a lot of the producers on that forum cited examples of EDM producers who started out with compressors and limiters on the master bus.

I then tried this myself and it made a huge difference for my workflow. For such a long time I would spend X amount of time writing and arranging without anything on the master. After that part was finished, I would usually spend just as much time trying to re-mixdown the track after adding plugins to the master buss because they changed the sound SO dramatically. It basically threw my whole mix out of balance. Needless to say, it was a MAJOR PITA.

Now I start my tracks with a specific mastering chain already in place, so that way when i finish writing the track, it is done. In the course of doing this, I discovered a LOT of other EDM producers doing this as well.

Now obviously if you ARE planning on sending your music off to a professional to be mastered you do NOT want to do this. Mastering professionals need to have room to work their magic, as has been discussed on this forum ad nauseum. In addition, this method of "home mastering" is not going to do the same quality job that a professional mastering engineer would do. However, considering the disposable nature of EDM as well as the fact that most producers do not have the time or money to get every track professionally mastered, this is a good way to get a "finished" sound. This seems to be a philosophy that applies mostly to EDM, as anyone making non-EDM stuff will tell you it is a bad idea, but i think for EDM it is an acceptable approach. The original point of mastering was to make sure all tracks across an entire album had a balanced sound with each other, a concept which does not normally apply to EDM, since most of it is released as "singles".

Now, the trick for me, is to have several different types of processing on the master buss. You do NOT want to squeeze the life out of the track! What I do is I have a couple of different compressors on the master buss, but each compressor is applying very subtle compression,on the order of 1-2 db MAX. The point is that each compressor is adding a little bit of it's particular "color" to the final product.

My chain goes something like this: UAD Cambridge > UAD Pultec Pro > Sonalksis SV315 > UAD Neve 88RS > PSP VintageWarmer > Waves Ultramaximizer.

With this chain I get a very good "clean" compressed sound. The track still has its dynamics intact, but it retains that "compressed" sound that is so important to EDM, without sounding squeezed to death. The Ultramaximizer rarely compresses more that 1db and is there just to catch any short, random overs.

So anyway, try experimenting with two or more subtle compressors on the master, along with some slight limiting. The point here is to be GENTLE to avoid giving it that "squeezed to death" sound. You'll be surprised at what a positive difference it can make, not just because it is louder, but because it sounds like what the finished product will sound like, and that is a huge help.

[digital 1010]

Originally Posted by Eric J

I just recently had a sort of epiphany with this exact subject. For years, I had always heard never to have anything on the master bus. Then, a few months ago, there was a similar discussion to this one on another forum and a lot of the producers on that forum cited examples of EDM producers who started out with compressors and limiters on the master bus.

I then tried this myself and it made a huge difference for my workflow. For such a long time I would spend X amount of time writing and arranging without anything on the master. After that part was finished, I would usually spend just as much time trying to re-mixdown the track after adding plugins to the master buss because they changed the sound SO dramatically. It basically threw my whole mix out of balance. Needless to say, it was a MAJOR PITA.

Now I start my tracks with a specific mastering chain already in place, so that way when i finish writing the track, it is done. In the course of doing this, I discovered a LOT of other EDM producers doing this as well.

Now obviously if you ARE planning on sending your music off to a professional to be mastered you do NOT want to do this. Mastering professionals need to have room to work their magic, as has been discussed on this forum ad nauseum. In addition, this method of "home mastering" is not going to do the same quality job that a professional mastering engineer would do. However, considering the disposable nature of EDM as well as the fact that most producers do not have the time or money to get every track professionally mastered, this is a good way to get a "finished" sound. This seems to be a philosophy that applies mostly to EDM, as anyone making non-EDM stuff will tell you it is a bad idea, but i think for EDM it is an acceptable approach. The original point of mastering was to make sure all tracks across an entire album had a balanced sound with each other, a concept which does not normally apply to EDM, since most of it is released as "singles".

Now, the trick for me, is to have several different types of processing on the master buss. You do NOT want to squeeze the life out of the track! What I do is I have a couple of different compressors on the master buss, but each compressor is applying very subtle compression,on the order of 1-2 db MAX. The point is that each compressor is adding a little bit of it's particular "color" to the final product.

My chain goes something like this: UAD Cambridge > UAD Pultec Pro > Sonalksis SV315 > UAD Neve 88RS > PSP VintageWarmer > Waves Ultramaximizer.

With this chain I get a very good "clean" compressed sound. The track still has its dynamics intact, but it retains that "compressed" sound that is so important to EDM, without sounding squeezed to death. The Ultramaximizer rarely compresses more that 1db and is there just to catch any short, random overs.

So anyway, try experimenting with two or more subtle compressors on the master, along with some slight limiting. The point here is to be GENTLE to avoid giving it that "squeezed to death" sound. You'll be surprised at what a positive difference it can make, not just because it is louder, but because it sounds like what the finished product will sound like, and that is a huge help.

I work a bit like this as well
My master chain is :-
The new cytomix Glue was sonaksis 315(sometimes the stillwell rocket on downtempo stuff)
tl audio eq 2
mpl -1 se

Id love to make the compressor section an api 2500 that my next quest

Ben

[Acid Hazard]

If you want to make your tracks louder w/o banging the peaks into the red, use Sonnox Oxford's Inflator. I run my mixes through this in Sound Forge as the very last stage.

[iangomes]

I still haven't moved over to a set master chain because I don't know what settings I should set. Should I try to master one of my tracks, then use that same master chain on my new track from the very beginning?

[digital 1010]

With a master chain i tend to leave settings pretty much the same if its the same style like house etc and then mix to them as i go,,obviously needs some tweaking as nothing is 100% the same but i do keep em close,like the buss compressor is set to 4-1 ratio for house where as more down tempo ill only do 2-1 ratio so is gentler etc. Eq i don't really touch much and hardly use the eq,i just like the sound of sending the mix through the unit quite driven and also to add a bit of top end sparkle to the mix or a tad more bottom etc.

[TacosWhenTwisted]

Originally Posted by Mans

There's really no need for this. In contrary to what some here believe a lot of the club tunes are mastered itb by the artists themselves. I use the term 'mastered' here loosely because to them the processes mixing and mastering are not seperate. Deadmau5, laidback luke, angello, etc all do it this way. So if that's the sound you're after there's no need to get your mix mastered by a third party.

Its funny you use what i've said in a quote, yet say something as stupid as what you have just said. A track that is not mastered properly cannot be played in a club next to tunes that have been mastered properly. And Laidback luke, Deadmaust, Angello tunes are well mastered to the last ounce of mastering.

[TacosWhenTwisted]

THe OP hardly makes sense, I cant even make out what hes saying. Someone want to translate into english?

[digital 1010]

Originally Posted by TacosWhenTwisted

THe OP hardly makes sense, I cant even make out what hes saying. Someone want to translate into english?

Don't ruin the thread mate

[Introspective]

Wazun, the bottom line is if you're sending stuff out to DJs for promotion, it HAS to be mastered. No doubt about it if you care about what you do.

If you're after some simple limiting to test it out on a system, or just to send to your mates, then use something like the Event Horizon: Event Horizon | Stillwell Audio - It's About The Sound
It's cheap and VERY transparent. PSP Xenon is also good.

I've listened to your track and I'd say one of the main things that sticks out is the amount of energy in the lows - I'd try rolling off everything below 40Hz as a starting point...cool little groove going though

Hope that helps a bit thumbsup

[dietrich10]

This reply comes from someone producing dance music as well as mastering it for other people(I do not like to master my own music).

1-Yes if you are sending mp3s around to DJs and you do not master them at all(meaning the overall volume is obviously much lower than the average file) they will not even try to play it out unless its that good and they do a quick master fix themselves.

2-If you do master the file yourself keep a copy of the pre-master as well. This way if it gets signed etc it can be mastered properly.

3-Most DJs just want it loud and the bass to pump. the wrong compressor or limiter settings can mess up the attack of the low end. I used to get many files sent to me
pushed thru the PSP Vintage Warmer -a plugin that gives instant results -however it is hard to master after the VW has been maximized on a file.


D

[XAXAU]

Originally Posted by Eric J

My chain goes something like this: UAD Cambridge > UAD Pultec Pro > Sonalksis SV315 > UAD Neve 88RS > PSP VintageWarmer > Waves Ultramaximizer.

And mine recently went something like this:

Algorithmix Red EQ - Highpass at 40Hz

>

UAD Precision Buss Compressor - 30ms attack, 100ms release, 500Hz SC filter engaged, 2:1 ratio, 2-4dB GR

>

UAD LA2A - 10ms attack, 60ms (50% release), compress mode, 1dB GR

>

UAD VCA VU - 2:1 ratio, 1dB GR

>

UAD Fairchild 670 - Time constant 1 (0,2ms attack, 300ms release), lat/vert mode unlinked, low input, deep knee, 1dB GR

>

UAD SPL Transient Designer - Max attack, minimum sustain, used in parallel to the compressor chain and mixed in before the limiter

>

UAD Precision Limiter - Release 25ms, 1-3dB GR on short peaks

[Mans]

Originally Posted by TacosWhenTwisted

Its funny you use what i've said in a quote, yet say something as stupid as what you have just said. A track that is not mastered properly cannot be played in a club next to tunes that have been mastered properly. And Laidback luke, Deadmaust, Angello tunes are well mastered to the last ounce of mastering.

Why don't you go to Laidback luke's board and ask him himself how and by whom his tracks are mastered? He's very open about it. But oh no wait he'll probably just lie to you anyway huh?

[huima]

Originally Posted by Eric J

I just recently had a sort of epiphany with this exact subject. For years, I had always heard never to have anything on the master bus. Then, a few months ago, there was a similar discussion to this one on another forum and a lot of the producers on that forum cited examples of EDM producers who started out with compressors and limiters on the master bus.

I then tried this myself and it made a huge difference for my workflow. For such a long time I would spend X amount of time writing and arranging without anything on the master. After that part was finished, I would usually spend just as much time trying to re-mixdown the track after adding plugins to the master buss because they changed the sound SO dramatically. It basically threw my whole mix out of balance. Needless to say, it was a MAJOR PITA.

Now I start my tracks with a specific mastering chain already in place, so that way when i finish writing the track, it is done. In the course of doing this, I discovered a LOT of other EDM producers doing this as well.

Now obviously if you ARE planning on sending your music off to a professional to be mastered you do NOT want to do this. Mastering professionals need to have room to work their magic, as has been discussed on this forum ad nauseum. In addition, this method of "home mastering" is not going to do the same quality job that a professional mastering engineer would do. However, considering the disposable nature of EDM as well as the fact that most producers do not have the time or money to get every track professionally mastered, this is a good way to get a "finished" sound. This seems to be a philosophy that applies mostly to EDM, as anyone making non-EDM stuff will tell you it is a bad idea, but i think for EDM it is an acceptable approach. The original point of mastering was to make sure all tracks across an entire album had a balanced sound with each other, a concept which does not normally apply to EDM, since most of it is released as "singles".

Now, the trick for me, is to have several different types of processing on the master buss. You do NOT want to squeeze the life out of the track! What I do is I have a couple of different compressors on the master buss, but each compressor is applying very subtle compression,on the order of 1-2 db MAX. The point is that each compressor is adding a little bit of it's particular "color" to the final product.

My chain goes something like this: UAD Cambridge > UAD Pultec Pro > Sonalksis SV315 > UAD Neve 88RS > PSP VintageWarmer > Waves Ultramaximizer.

With this chain I get a very good "clean" compressed sound. The track still has its dynamics intact, but it retains that "compressed" sound that is so important to EDM, without sounding squeezed to death. The Ultramaximizer rarely compresses more that 1db and is there just to catch any short, random overs.

So anyway, try experimenting with two or more subtle compressors on the master, along with some slight limiting. The point here is to be GENTLE to avoid giving it that "squeezed to death" sound. You'll be surprised at what a positive difference it can make, not just because it is louder, but because it sounds like what the finished product will sound like, and that is a huge help.

What kind of setting you use with Vintage Warmer?