Ableton's mix engine is widely regarded as being inferior to a most of the other DAWs. Stereo width, dynamic range and mix resolution are on a similar level to Reason; which is to say it produces a 'same-y' sound whatever gets mixed in it. Sounds less 'open' in the highs and sounds are more 'boxed-in' compared to a 64bit mix in, say, Sonar or Reaper.
Letting Logic or Cubase run pre-arranged tracks sure is more creative than a program that enables you to work in realtime and change things on the fly
BTW, Live IS 64Bit.
Yes I know. I guess I should have put a little behind it. I was being sarcastic..... Ableton is pretty awesome for live, if your using a computer.
However, with the advent of control surfaces and whatnot, any sort of DAW is now enjoying a great deal of options with regard to the live situation. Or, Just not take a computer out live!
Taking the computer out of the equation is definetely not a bad idea for stability, but even MPCs and other digital or CPU-based sequencers could crash. Best thing is to use only traditional instruments
Taking the computer out of the equation is definetely not a bad idea for stability, but even MPCs and other digital or CPU-based sequencers could crash. Best thing is to use only traditional instruments
I am guessing that most audiences have kinda moved past the 16-step grids of the x0xs and maybe expect a little more sequenced diversity. For live stuff, truly live, say 32+ tracks, how else could one playback without a laptop?
not to single you out, crufty. this just struck me as an 'in-the-box' view, if you'll bear with me.
to me, it's not the tools that matter so much, but the will and intent, and particularly the IMAGINATION of the artist that makes the music and performance what it is.
A novel concept in a place like Gearslutz, to be sure.
With regard to audience expectations. I don't think they(like 95% of em) ever cared if it was an xOx or a DAT, frankly. They want the energy of a live performance to affect them in some positive way, and have a good time. Whether they can perceive every nuance/minutae of our 'creation' pales next to any plain dumb enthusiasm they can feed off of. Jump up and down; it works.
Anyway, back to tools: it's how the gear serves your vision, not how you use the tools. If i'm running x0x patterns i sure as hell know that the audience won't take it like '88 all over again : "Ooooohhh Wooow - what's that weird 'y' bass sound that goes SPLAT!!??! "
So nowadays it pays to be more creative with looping, sync, layering, using FX and the like when using the x0x's. Pick up the right tool when you need it, put it down when you don't. The gear doesn't lead, ever...the imagination does.
I have to wonder... if you think you need 32 tracks then what are you prepared to do when some of those tracks (inevitably will) fail while playing live? Even a hardware setup has failures, too. Contingency and the ability to improvise successfully in the face of disaster is a much more important skill for future success than making gear-buying money-saving decisions, imho.
That said, if anyone can run a reliable laptop system, AND entertain the hell out of people, and remain creatively satisfied, more power to them.
Until THAT prospect outweighs the sheer thrill of having multiple analog & digital hardware all grooving together in sync....well then consider me thoroughly out-of-the-box.
i'm not sure what the inference of you're conclusion is.
perhaps if i made music exclusively with sine waves...?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DISCERN
Huh?
This thread seems to be suffering a case of failing vision. It is time to see the forest through the trees. Does anyone actually talk about music anymore?
What kind of comparison are you trying to make?
PS. If you can't get a great sounding mix out of Ableton, it is your own doing. Perhaps it is time to jump of internet forums and just get on with making music.
of course the music is what matters. there are always going to be performers that sound the same, in any era.
the comparison was between mix engines in DAWs, that's all . Differences in 32-bit vs 64-bit performance is subtle if unnoticeable unless headroom is pushed, you use long VST chains or mix&match samplerates, among other things. This is Google-able.
In all humility I've managed to squeeze nice fat mixes out of Live (and back in the day w/ ACID version 1) using a Layla20 for A/D and Mackie pres(!), but it was a chore.
....i don't miss those days....
sluts want to see maschines on stage.
live is a software so its ****ed in the "experts"-forums over and over again from any angle, like paris hilton.
for me, a good system no matter if we talk about live music, running a business, martial arts or just organizing a day ... a good system is simple and flexible and has its richness in its flexibility and is shining at how the system is beeing able to react on different circumstances which can change within a second.
so the beautiness is within the construction and concept from inside and not how it may look like from outside. The same goes for marketing of new maschines and software, hardware. There is so much nice looking gear out there but ask yourself how much of it realy would fit to your style of work. For an example, i understand the importance of MPC back in the days but today it is realy overhyped, because the role of an MPC can easily be exchanged by modern software/controllers. The helpless try to joint venture with ableton to marketing the new controller with this blinking lights just prooves the fact.
Anyway we take one ableton live on stage which is a sampler and midisequencer in one instance and shows great flexibilty. We even consider producing with it in the future. We take 2 hardware synthesizer too. Every patch will beeing screwed to infinite randomness and spontanous results we also do not know before which is a great adventure for us too. So we have very small setup from the hardware point of view (3 maschines, 1 controller) but have an infinite range of what we do with it. This wouldnt be possible without ableton. thats a fact.
Give me some arguments I can handle as facts and not blind slutty love for some museum-gear which is allready outdated.
__________________
"...when everything is loud then realy, nothing is loud" B.Katz
i'm not sure what the inference of you're conclusion is.
perhaps if i made music exclusively with sine waves...?
It was a test to prove that the summing algos of different DAWs work exactly the same way.
Sine waves, drumloops or recording of my farts, it doesn't make any difference...
DISCERN, you seem to be baiting me, and I'm not interested, and now it's derailing us. If you're truly sincere, please remember the thread title... see the caps?
You come off as a naysayer, and your random references to snake-oil et al do not speak well of your intent up to now, whatever this may be. I hope things improve, as Live's mix engine has in recent versions. I used Live 1 thru 4 for some years. Still MIDI dump occasionally from it, too
cheers,
Shaft
anyone have some links to the finest Rogue Element, Aphex, TD, Schultze etc live videos?
I have to wonder... if you think you need 32 tracks then what are you prepared to do when some of those tracks (inevitably will) fail while playing live? Even a hardware setup has failures, too. Contingency and the ability to improvise successfully in the face of disaster is a much more important skill for future success than making gear-buying money-saving decisions, imho.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying! An artist is more responsible for a given sound then the sound itself, I think anyway.
My point is that most otb sequencers kinda suck, to be honest. The majority are one midi out / 16 tracks. Sysex / nrpn support is spotty at best. I used an mc808 to sequence exclusively for 2-3 yrs before moving to logic. Logic is leagues better for me, it really is hard for me to imagine going back otb. There is the genoqs stuff, and thats about it.
I agree hw fails. In the studio, my stuff regularly goes down for the count. Nice thing about analogs w/no patch memory though. off/on, and WHAM, back in business, no o/s boot up time (on some).
I at some point would like to do open mic at the local coffee shop. this was my plan: have 2 ableton laptops tucked under desk, invisible to audience. laptops are joined via usb switcher, which connects to motu midi. Control exclusively via midi controllers on desk. use a usb switcher between laptops for laptop->midi out->synth control, and a midi router for midi controller->midi in->laptop.
setup:
laptop 1 -> usb1 -> usb switcher 1
laptop 2 -> usb1 -> usb switcher 1
usb switcher 1 -> motu midi interfaces
motu midi interfaces - > synths
midi router setup to send inputs on input 1 to outputs 1 and 3
midi router setup to send inputs on input 2 to outputs 2 and 4
on the live setup part, have an ipod shuffle with explosions and laser sounds queued up on repeat/random playlist. Put that on track 1 of the live board, muted
then if laptop 1 goes down for the count, unmute track 1, hit the usb switch, wait for the midi interface to reconnect, remute track 1 and back in business. since all controller activity is duplicated across both laptops, both should be in the same playback state.
A clever scheme. Best of luck with the dual setup...you're a brave man Crufty!
I'm not sure what an OTB sequencer is, it seems like they all live in boxes to me...
I assume you mean the ITB sequencer to be PC/Mac/Linux OS, eh?
I can see why you might dislike some OTB sequencers, but it begs the question - which ones have you used?
RS7000? P3? Oasys? or is Oasys ITB since it's Linux? Neko? bluuurrr
I currently use (friends)RS7000 + EMX & ESX and a couple synths w/ guitar and FX, and it's opened things up a lot for me recently. Previously I used a workstation(T3)+MMT-8 combo w/ a Waldorf Pulse MIDI/CV'ing a TB303. I've no interest in going in-the-box live, until the mini-book Atom/notebook thingies get a bit better.
I guess the fundamental issue - is if your personal style is suited to linear, pattern and/or analog CV sequencing.
No machine that I'm aware of has everything, and is limited by it's own particular interface, so it's often most flexible and musical to integrate multiple approaches wherever necessary.
Personally, I'm weary of past experiences with missed Program Changes, CC chokes and garbled Sysex strings. So I relegate MIDI to sync and rackmount duty. And that's about as far as I get 'involved' with machines telling others what to do. I just want them to work in sync is all. My goal is to have a live sound that is just a slightly less-polished sister to my recordings, with the supreme spontenaity that playing live enables.
You remind me, I should get backups of a few key pieces...if these flaky promoters would just follow through on some dates already...
I'm not sure what an OTB sequencer is, it seems like they all live in boxes to me...
I assume you mean the ITB sequencer to be PC/Mac/Linux OS, eh?
Yes! An otb sequencer to me is onboard x0x (tribe, mc x0x, actual x0x, etc), interrupt driven (cyclus, yamaha rs, alesis, etc) or analog. An itb sequencer to me is either PC or Mac (linux too I guess) feeding a separate midi interface. to me, an itb sequencer is infinitely more usable (outside of the outstanding genoqs stuff) typically because of superb detail, editing, routing and flexibility. I feel hamstrung on x0x stuff (unless I'm jamming out for mindless fun) and I should add this is probably more of a reflection of my own limitations then those who have found and continue to find success with otb sequencers.
I hear you on the midi choking.
I have used an MC808, cyclus 3, tribe mx1 extensively for sequencing rack synths. I wish I could add a genoqs octopus but alas, it is destined to be forever on the slut gas list. I have used somewhat an RS7k and understand its appeal, but it simply would not fit in for me right now. I looked at a P3, never used one. Have touched an oasys in the store, looked at an M3 too, but had more slut lust for other things.
I will also add I am quite lazy, and I find it a lot more convienent to have a DAW store the entire midi setup then trying to craft songs via lined paper and synth song memory.
Final thought, is x0x programming can get very interesting when loop points are supported, and one starts stringing together patterns that are not multiples of 4, especially blank patterns. I agree imagination and experimentation is very important and am not claiming what I do is by any stretch the end all be all. And for those who can play multiple keyboards live, my hat is off to you! I am no good past 30bpm versions of chopsticks sadly.
sluts want to see maschines on stage.
live is a software so its ****ed in the "experts"-forums over and over again from any angle, like paris hilton.
for me, a good system no matter if we talk about live music, running a business, martial arts or just organizing a day ... a good system is simple and flexible and has its richness in its flexibility and is shining at how the system is beeing able to react on different circumstances which can change within a second.
so the beautiness is within the construction and concept from inside and not how it may look like from outside. The same goes for marketing of new maschines and software, hardware. There is so much nice looking gear out there but ask yourself how much of it realy would fit to your style of work. For an example, i understand the importance of MPC back in the days but today it is realy overhyped, because the role of an MPC can easily be exchanged by modern software/controllers. The helpless try to joint venture with ableton to marketing the new controller with this blinking lights just prooves the fact.
Anyway we take one ableton live on stage which is a sampler and midisequencer in one instance and shows great flexibilty. We even consider producing with it in the future. We take 2 hardware synthesizer too. Every patch will beeing screwed to infinite randomness and spontanous results we also do not know before which is a great adventure for us too. So we have very small setup from the hardware point of view (3 maschines, 1 controller) but have an infinite range of what we do with it. This wouldnt be possible without ableton. thats a fact.
Give me some arguments I can handle as facts and not blind slutty love for some museum-gear which is allready outdated.
I'll bite on that one:
My laptop with Ableton and Reason is incredibly powerful. A studio within itself. The stuff dreams are made of.. Back when I was trying to get an Amiga500 with Bars and Pipes to talk correctly with my CZ-1000 I never would have imagined this stuff would one day exist. It's beautiful.
But a computer could never replace my combo of my MPC-1000 and my Blofeld. Sure I could buy a pad controller, nice dual MIDI interface, an expensive interface with 6 outputs and 2 inputs and hook it all up to a laptop. But then it's not just a laptop, it's a freakin mess of wires.
I can pack my MPC and my Blofeld in a laptop bag. I travel with it. I know it inside and out. My fingers know where to go to accomplish what I want. And my creativity is framed within a solid, unchanging framework which becomes it's own very simple instrument.
I'm sure your computerized Ableton setup is perfect for what you do. My travelling setup is perfect for what I do. It simply could not be replaced with a laptop and interfaces without taking up a much larger space and making it much more complicated.
still a work in progress, but right now heres the live setup..
MPC1000 -> Novation SL
Novation out 1 -> (partners signal chain into Roland SH-201) he also works vox and a percussion station and live bass.
Novation out 2 -> Mopho -> virus B - Korg EMX
The MPC is the master brain obviously, and we have numerous 8-16 bar patterns programmed into sequences that represent a song. Since we tend to jump around from instrument to instrument, we will play parts live and then the MPC will take over so we can switch it up. The mopho is dedicaded for basslines and the EMX is basically percussion. I've got the virus B in multi mode so I can cover several sounds across the keyboard with one patch.
We're not really trying to be a jammy type electronic band, we're more into writing songs, and then arranging them in sequence so the music still has a continuous feel. We're doing slower BPM stuff anywhere between 105-125 BPM...
I havent got a problem with live computer setups but something rubs me up the wrong way about using computers coming from a live performance background. I never play with a lappy and doubt i ever will and im sticking to my guns..i HATE looking at a screen when im playing and using software traps me in terms of speeds dynamics and more. I like how things speed up and change naturally, thats where the funk is...thats what its all about for me..live performance using synths real instruments and players only..
JD- I really dig your tunes, if you read this and it is available- hook me up with info on purchasing that 'Bonobo days' track. Id been checking it for a while on myspace and recently noticed the song wasn't up anymore. Good stuff
Our first gig isn't until July, and we just let the (v)drummer go due to things not working out.. but currently we're playing electronic music with no computers at the moment; Myself playing synth bass with a bass guitar +pedalboards (filters/octavers/fuzz/moogerfoogers+mp201/modulation etc), and a guitar/keys player with a yamaha keyboard, microkorg, guitar and pedalboard. I'm currently programming beats and loading them into his rc-50 with everything midi synced to the rc50. Due to the recent loss of the drummer, Ive started programming some beats and sourcing them from a friend, and am working on integrating the computer+ableton to control and manipulate the beats with a padkontrol while playing bass. Currently we're loading the beats into the rc50 (3 individual loop footswitches) in 3 parts and the keyboardist is controlling them while looping mainly keys/synth. The rc50 loopstation is getting us by but the level of control offered by ableton and a controller or two (have an fcb1010 as well but I already have too much stuff at my feet) is very appealing. It's also a relatively light load on the computer since its not processing any live sound or doing any synth work..
We're just starting to work on a few songs and somewhat still in the jamming stage. I helped him find a good deal on the microkorg ($200 mint) and plan on selling that and upgrading to something like an ION as soon as we can find one in the right price range.
Here's two clips from day one with the microkorg and rc50. The second clip we're just jamming to a cheesy loopstation beat for an hour, and I cut out 2min from the beginning, middle and end so you can hear the changes (and the song slowly evolve) at the 2 and 4 minute marks. The first clip is an 8 bar loop from a beat made by a friend and loaded in the rc50, and is a couple minutes from the beggining and end of the jam cut together.
http ://soundclick.com/share?songid=7474692
http ://soundclick.com/share?songid=7474684
Don't mind the note searching and knob fiddling (and preset switching-first day with the mkorg!) here and there, we're just jamming!
who really cares what people think of the equipment you are using on stage? i'm a jazz musician, and i love live improvised performance, but if you're playing sequenced music live, it's sequenced.. i mean come on.. it's computerized, it's not being played by a human.... the audience cares about the vibe and the music, if it's grooving, if the club is happening.. they don't give a shit about what gear is onstage, except the other music geeks of course
who really cares what people think of the equipment you are using on stage? i'm a jazz musician, and i love live improvised performance, but if you're playing sequenced music live, it's sequenced.. i mean come on.. it's computerized, it's not being played by a human.... the audience cares about the vibe and the music, if it's grooving, if the club is happening.. they don't give a shit about what gear is onstage, except the other music geeks of course
I wrote a paper on the advantages and disadvantages of the performance of electronic music for a University about 2 years ago.
There are lots of factors that need to be taken into account before blaming someone for using a laptop in a live performance and it's not always about reliability.
Anyway, personally speaking, I think that a live performance where everything is sequenced and the musician reads his email or plays minesweeper is not an honest performance. Of course you might get away with it and the audience that goes to see an EM concert knows what to expect more or less. Problem is that 95% don't have a clue about what instrument makes what sound - hell that even goes without saying in a "rock" band. You can say that's a sick bassline and no-one knows who the bass player is, let alone what everybody is doing on stage.
So, you might tickle a sequencer and the audience doesn't know that you might be controlling 50 parameters at once, you might play a MIDI guitar and the audience hears drums or violins, and of course they will think that the performance is fake. The reason they believe that is that
a.) they fail to make an association between what they hear and what you do
b.) they are mis-informed about the complexitities and nature of EM
So perhaps the single most important factor - from the audience perspective - is: MOVEMENT. As I mentioned, you might be adjusting parameters on a synth, but this is not visible to the audience. Even if it is, no-one knows what you might be controlling and of course no-one gets excited about your micro-movements in direct contrast to a banging drummer...
Damn, does anyone want to read my paper? Because I can go on mentioning problems forever..
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behind it. I was being sarcastic..... 
y' bass sound that goes SPLAT!!??! 
" 
instruments and players only..
