Electronic music is not just dance music

[drosophila]

I keep seeing it, time and time again, and every time I do, I want to puke.

The term "dance music" being used to describe electronic music in general.

Don't get me wrong, I'm aware that a lot of electronic music is intended or oriented towards the dancefloor, but all of it? Every time I see it used, I immediately think of the most superficial, formulaic crap out there. At worst, it evokes things like Disco, Paula Abdul, and C&C Music Factory. At best, I think of watered-down, mainstream offerings that dominated in the late 90's.

It also strikes me as a derisive term used by people who don't like or understand electronic music...or at least, that was always my perception based on comments that a lot of people seeking advice received before we had a dedicated forum.

Anyone else think the term really marginalizes electronic music, or are you content with having it applied to what you do?

[Jazzpunk]

I actually like to dance so I don't think of the term 'dance music' as being derogatory. That said, most of the 'electronic' artists I listen to these days aren't really dance oriented so I kind of understand where you're coming from.

[Reptil]

warning pet pieve rant coming up. please skip if not needed

the term "dance" originated when the mainstream part of the music industry tried to coin the previously unfathomable electronic dance music. and subsequently replacing it with a toned down "commercial" variant. the end of the nineties, with the advent of ID&T, Tiësto's rise to fame, Armin van Buuren being hyped as the best thing since ehm peanutbutter etc.
I don't mind about that, since I'm not a hater, but the two have little in common, when you look at the ideas behind it.
electronic music and underground dance music thrive on a constant evolution, the need for reïnvention and experimentation.
plus, a disregard for anything that resembles "a rule" - the electronic dance variant having built in the stuff that makes you dance. (a groove?!)
while this might be a little too much of a romantic representation of a very practical situation (excuse me for this ), it is nonetheless true.
It was dumbed down to bitesize regurgitated junk, and almost destroyed everything. it DID destroy a healty electronic dance music culture in my country. or maybe the people just got mtv-ed.
the moment this happened, strangely coïncided with MTV buying out other music tv stations, and stopping doing music alltogether. and a heavy gov. crackdown on any party, festival etc. if not heavily commercialised or subsidised...
they couldn't control it and so they wanted to kill it. and replace with consumer corp. crap. like "the real world". which they partially succeeded in.
it made promotors dependent on bar owners, and those have no love for music very often. or understand it.
now the roles are reversed. bar and club owners are going the way of the dodo, and subsedised (meaning fitting in a BS government culture plan) means unfunded right now. HAH
and yes, it does make me want to puke

especially so called cultural experts throwing the word around while having no idea about what who where when or how
aah fukk it
it's ok, I just hate fakers
hope that doesn't make me a hater LOL
rant end

[SWAN808]

I agree that it may seem that electronic music is looked at as purely dance music sometimes. I think however - at least in Europe - dance music does make up the lions share of electronic music. Tho of course there is also many other forms of electronic music. The dance music scene tho is big - the electronic music scene is relatively small.

It seems like you have a very particular and negative view of dance music. Judging by your examples and descriptions-which are of course completely out of date and in fairness-not that well informed. Although they were to make a point. Maybe people in the US regard dance music differently (I think the word techno is used almost generically..?) and in a more negative light due to the heavy HipHop/Rap/RnB scene and Rock scenes...

However there is some quality dance music being produced these days, just as there is some shite stuff as well.

Sounds to me like you dont like your electronic music being referred to by some (probably slightly ignorant listeners) as dance music due to your own negative judgmental attitude about dance music - rather than for the actual distinctions sake of difference between the music. In this case - you're actually quite similar to the person calling your electronic music 'dance music'...IMHO...

[drosophila]

Originally Posted by SWAN808

I agree that it may seem that electronic music is looked at as purely dance music sometimes. I think however - at least in Europe - dance music does make up the lions share of electronic music. Tho of course there is also many other forms of electronic music. The dance music scene tho is big - the electronic music scene is relatively small.

It seems like you have a very particular and negative view of dance music. Judging by your examples and descriptions-which are of course completely out of date and in fairness-not that well informed. Although they were to make a point. Maybe people in the US regard dance music differently (I think the word techno is used almost generically..?) and in a more negative light due to the heavy HipHop/Rap/RnB scene and Rock scenes...

However there is some quality dance music being produced these days, just as there is some shite stuff as well.

Sounds to me like you dont like your electronic music being referred to by some (probably slightly ignorant listeners) as dance music due to your own negative judgmental attitude about dance music - rather than for the actual distinctions sake of difference between the music. In this case - you're actually quite similar to the person calling your electronic music 'dance music'...IMHO...

Let me clarify, I have no problem with dance music in general (though I certainly have my preferences), and spent several years as a club DJ. The examples I used were intended to be colorful, and an example of the connotation that comes to mind when I see people use the term so broadly, because I tend to think of things in somewhat more specific terms.

My problem is with dance music being used as a blanket term for everything from Throbbing Gristle to Venetian Snares to Aphex Twin to Tangerine Dream to Prodigy to Merzbow, etc, when usually, people are really just referring to very specific subgenres. You made the distinction between "dance music" and "electronic music" yourself.

It's akin to saying "pop/rock" to describe everything in the mainstream top 40. I use it dismissively because I could give a crap about that stuff. I suspect some guy doing acoustic singer-songwriter music with would probably not want to be lumped under it, while a Christina Aguilera wannabe would be perfectly fine with the association.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by SWAN808

I agree that it may seem that electronic music is looked at as purely dance music sometimes. I think however - at least in Europe - dance music does make up the lions share of electronic music. Tho of course there is also many other forms of electronic music. The dance music scene tho is big - the electronic music scene is relatively small.

It seems like you have a very particular and negative view of dance music. Judging by your examples and descriptions-which are of course completely out of date and in fairness-not that well informed. Although they were to make a point. Maybe people in the US regard dance music differently (I think the word techno is used almost generically..?) and in a more negative light due to the heavy HipHop/Rap/RnB scene and Rock scenes...

However there is some quality dance music being produced these days, just as there is some shite stuff as well.

Sounds to me like you dont like your electronic music being referred to by some (probably slightly ignorant listeners) as dance music due to your own negative judgmental attitude about dance music - rather than for the actual distinctions sake of difference between the music. In this case - you're actually quite similar to the person calling your electronic music 'dance music'...IMHO...

yep. less of a distictive line between electronic, and electronic dance music. often the same artist doing both.
examples

[msl]

Yes it's not just dance. Thats just people that don't know much about music. They probably wouldn't know the difference between reggae and dub, or punk and hard rock either. My girlfriend has friends like this, its all the same to them, they never developed a passion for music, and they'll never learn because of the places and media they buy and listen to music from.

Originally Posted by Reptil

and a heavy gov. crackdown on any party, festival etc. if not heavily commercialised or subsidised...
they couldn't control it and so they wanted to kill it. and replace with consumer corp. crap. like "the real world". which they partially succeeded in.
it made promotors dependent on bar owners, and those have no love for music very often. or understand it.

Sad but true, lived through it in a few countries, always the same. At least I got to live some of it while it was still uncontrolled. You know it not the first time, look at the late 60's and then again with punk, how the people where bought out, and the meaning commercialized...

[chrisso]

Electronic music is not just dance music.
I couldn't agree more.
I love a lot of dance music, but the majority of electronic music I listen to is not primarily for clubs.
For example, a lot of film and television music is amazing electronic music, much less formulaic and conservative than music for clubs.

[soultrane]

Originally Posted by drosophila

My problem is with dance music being used as a blanket term for everything from Throbbing Gristle to Venetian Snares to Aphex Twin to Tangerine Dream to Prodigy to Merzbow, etc, when usually, people are really just referring to very specific subgenres. You made the distinction between "dance music" and "electronic music" yourself.

i've found this is a very important to keep in mind when listening to someone's views on this or that particular synth etc...

a synth that might be incredible in an aphex twin or tangerine dream (or massive attack etc) might be overkill for some house or trance producer's studio... and you make a mistake if you assume everyone is doing faster tunes.

the earliest electronic music was all about timbre anyway....

[NewSc2]

Good point, but I think there are quite a few electronic artists out there today (compared to 4-5 years ago) that make it easier to define "electronic music" as non-dance electronic music (Radiohead's later works, Aphex Twin... heck even video game music or hip hop). There's always the IDM moniker too... even though it's "intelligent dance music" I dare anybody try to dance to some of the more ambient IDM stuff.

I actually like dance music though. I love house music, and it can't get much dancier than that. Funny thing is only about 1% of the time I'm listening to EDM I actually dance to it (at a club). Most of the time I'm at work, in the car, browsing the internet, or working out.

[drosophila]

Originally Posted by NewSc2

Good point, but I think there are quite a few electronic artists out there today (compared to 4-5 years ago) that make it easier to define "electronic music" as non-dance electronic music (Radiohead's later works, Aphex Twin... heck even video game music or hip hop).

I don't mean to sound condescending, but non-dance oriented electronic music has been a constant presence since the 60's. It's less visible to the mainstream, but it's been just as prolific over the last three decades or so as dance music has been. I used to have a $300 a month record shopping habit and still couldn't keep up with it all.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by msl

Yes it's not just dance. Thats just people that don't know much about music. They probably wouldn't know the difference between reggae and dub, or punk and hard rock either. My girlfriend has friends like this, its all the same to them, they never developed a passion for music, and they'll never learn because of the places and media they buy and listen to music from.

Sad but true, lived through it in a few countries, always the same. At least I got to live some of it while it was still uncontrolled. You know it not the first time, look at the late 60's and then again with punk, how the people where bought out, and the meaning commercialized...

The way of the world is that a new (not yet commerciallised) form of electronic music is already there, or on the brink of happening. It's a sinus. That will start the whole thing over again. It's good to remember what it was (the freedom to do anything in your music), I hope I never lose that.

thumbsup

[SWAN808]

fair enough

I agree with you in that electronic music stems over far more than just dance music. Dance music is a form of electronic music - a sub genre I guess. So is there a classification for the sub-genre of music you are reffering to? Someone mentioned IDM - but I dont think thats what you're talking about....? I think in the past Ive reffered to it as 'down-tempo electronic music'.

It just happens that as msl says - not everyone knows enough about music to always make a distinction. And it happens that dance music is the largest form of electronic music.

The comparison of Dub to Reggae is a good one...

I'd be interested to hear - can you post some examples (youtube maybe) of current artists?

[drosophila]

Originally Posted by SWAN808

I agree with you in that electronic music stems over far more than just dance music. Dance music is a form of electronic music - a sub genre I guess. So is there a classification for the sub-genre of music you are reffering to? Someone mentioned IDM - but I dont think thats what you're talking about....? I think in the past Ive reffered to it as 'down-tempo electronic music'.

It just happens that as msl says - not everyone knows enough about music to always make a distinction. And it happens that dance music is the largest form of electronic music.

I'm not referring to a sub-genre at all, just the fact that "dance music" isn't necessarily an appropriate umbrella term to describe all electronic music. Even some styles that can be danced to I think are done a disservice by reducing them to just club music, and as Reptil noted, a lot people jump between non-danceable and club-friendly stuff.

As for specific examples, I can only use my own tastes as a frame of reference, and YouTube makes it a little difficult to find certain types of things, but I'll give it a shot on short notice :p

rrine - YouTube - 2005 Laptop Battle Seattle Finalist
He's a friend of mine here in PDX, but I love his stuff and it's a decent example of a fairly ambient style of IDM.

Proem - YouTube - proem - protobella
More downtemo styled stuff.

Venetian Snares - YouTube - Venetian Snares - Mutant **** Sniffer
Breakcore. I've seen people dance to it, but that's never struck me as the intention, and those who try to just look like they're having a seizure. This is one of his more accessible tracks.

Genocide Organ - YouTube - genocide organ - augsburg - live 22-11-2003
An example of power electronics/death industrial/noise sort of stuff.

Whitehouse - YouTube - whitehouse
Here it gets nastier. Full on, classic British power electronics.

Tonikom - YouTube - Tonikom - Like Glass live at Kinetik Fest
Another friend of mine, but she's a great example of someone who doesn't really fit into one genre. Sometimes danceable, sometimes not, though most of the crowd in this clip is just watching.

Coil - YouTube - Coil - Blood From The Air (Jacobs Ladder)
Never sure what to call Coil other than "experimental" because their sound changes dramatically from album to album.

Bad Sector - YouTube - Bad Sector
Dark ambient'ish sort of stuff, with a bit of a synthetic, computer vibe. Think Lustmord.

Muslimgauze - YouTube - Muslimgauze - Mount of olives 1
Middle Eastern percussion co-mingled with samples and tape loops.

Pan Sonic - YouTube - Pan sonic @ DeciBELIO Festival
Experimental, noisy, glitchy stuff.

Klangstabil - YouTube - Klangstabil - You May Start
Possibly the most danceable thing these guys have done, but it's tough to find their older material on YouTube. They range from extremely noisy, abstract stuff to kind of a weird, minimal electro sound like this.

Biosphere - YouTube - Biosphere - Patashnik
Ambient techno, I guess?

Burial - YouTube - Distant Lights
My personal favorite of the "dubstep" genre.

Bllix - YouTube - defailir [bllix]
Yet another of the PDX posse. Kinda IDM, ambient, cinematic stuff.

Xabec - YouTube - Xabec - live at Dark Live Fest, Rock cafe, Prague 08.03 2008
Kinda ambient, cinematic, and totally awesome.

I'm not trying to get everyone caught up in genres and sub-genres here, just trying to illustrate how diverse it all can get.

[Edward]

Really, don't worry about what other people call your music.

It doesn't matter what it's called. You can't expect journalists to seriously research things when they write about music, or the guys at work or whatever. 99% of them are just not that interested. If you are serious about music, those opinions don't matter. Personally I'd rather be called "dance" than "electronica" because dancing is fun and electronica conjures up images of parties with no girls and blokes asking me which software I use.

I like "dance music" from James Brown to AFX via Kraftwerk, Derrick May and Public Enemy and I think having thousands of tiny genres is silly and destroys creativity - micro genres encourage the mindset of "what shall I copy today" instead of "I'll make something new with synths in it" or similar.

I call nearly all music with guitars, distortion, annoying vocals "rock" because I am not sufficiently interested to learn more about it. If that really bothers any people in bands, they are free to call my music anything under the sun.

PS please don't disrespect disco. I would choose Patrick Adams over ANY modern electronic producer with the exceptions of AFX and Drexciya.

Also:

"dance music" isn't necessarily an appropriate umbrella term to describe all electronic music.

I think you are preaching to the already converted. I mean, who ever suggested that it was?

[Fredrik]

I agree that it shouldn´t be assumed that it´s dance music just because it´s made with electronic instruments. But I think that using a term like electronic music to describe a whole genre based on what instruments is used is also misleading. I mean if all it takes for something to be coined electronic music is using electronic instruments alot of top 40 stuff is electronic music. I mean imagine calling rock guitar music.

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by Edward

Really, don't worry about what other people call your music.

I agree with this, it´s what it sounds like that matters.

[Edward]

I mean imagine calling rock guitar music.

Actually I do that all the time as in "I'm not really into guitar music apart from Prince"

[lcvl]

I agree with this, it´s what it sounds like that matters.

[Stiff]

I agree with the original poster that it's a shame electronic music and dance music is considered as the same thing. I don't care for dance music at all, but one of the reasons I keep reading this forum is that I'm interested in electronic music, synths and stuff like that in general. My "electronic music influences" has nothing to do with dance music.

Originally Posted by Fredrik

But I think that using a term like electronic music to describe a whole genre based on what instruments is used is also misleading. I mean if all it takes for something to be coined electronic music is using electronic instruments alot of top 40 stuff is electronic music. I mean imagine calling rock guitar music.

I think this is one of the few times I agree with you

[crufty]

people (the unwashed illiterate massed, not ussin's of course ) are busy; they don't have time to differentiate between genres.

Is Metallica Heavy Metal? Anthem Metal? Rock and Roll? Modern Rock? Etc. Depending on your age you will answer differently.

I don't get too hung up on the genres. The younger I was, yeah it meant a lot. Then...there was a massive splintering. Everything was x-core. At that point, I didn't have time to track the heavy happy hard epic progressive melodic doomcore flavor of the week. http://techno.org/electronic-music-guide/music.swf

For me, electronic music includes film score via samples, ambient in all its forms etc.

Or, we can all call it for what it really is: techno.

thank you and good night.

[msl]

Terry Riley - A Rainbow in a curved air - 1969

at the time they just called it electronic music.

[andrewsc]

The first time I saw people dancing to some real quality stripped down techno made of dissonant and abstract tones, it was almost the definition of dance music to me at the time because it seemed to be designed as a 'dance concept only', and almost tried to de-emphasize the 'listening music' aspect with the strange dissonant accents. The fact that sound could seem to be designed with dance-only or dance-specific intention was really interesting. Of course tribal drumming can be dance music, and James Brown and some Count Basie may all be considered dance music, and whoever is making sound is making it for a listener of some sort. There seems to be a distinction between dance music and club music. I think these people who call it all dance music just need to expand their electronic music collection and their terminology.

[Eric J]

Look, there is no question that to the average, uninformed listener that the term "dance music" is easily applied to anything called "electronic music". The fact is that most people who arent into electronic music just simply do not know the difference. I'd move to argue that there are some people who may even listen to electronic music and not know, especially in the case of artists like Ladytron, who incorporate tons of electronics into their music, but still compose and arrange in the traditional manner of a rock group. Radiohead is a good example of this as well. I know a lot of people who are NOT dance music fans, but they love OK Computer, which was heavily electronic. In many cases, they don't have any clue that some sound is coming from a synthesizer until someone tells them.

For example:

You: "Man, I love this synth bass that comes in right here."

Them: "That's a synthesizer? I thought it was just, you know, bass."

The point is most people are clueless about this form of music because they simply aren't into it. I couldn't tell you the difference between country, alt-country, southern rock, etc. because I'm not into that stuff and could care less. Its the same with those who aren't into electronic music.

I think of some of Delerium or FLA's work thats more in the downtempo vain. Its ALL electronic, but probably would not work well on a dance floor. Yet, for me, that type of stuff is great. It contains all the elements that attract me to electronic music, both danceable and non-danceable. Ethereal, melodic, almost downtempo trance in a way, but definitely not "dance music". That's what works for me.

On the flip side, the diversity of actual "dance music" is a good thing. Personally, I love the idea that each dance track is like a little piece of a puzzle and it is up to the DJ to put the pieces together to form a cohesive statement in the form of a mixed set. Many, many DJ's fail at this (even the big ones), which is why I'm notoriously deliquent in the purchasing of mixed CD's from other artists. SO many of these CD's fail at this aspect and are simply just a bunch of tracks strung together with no real cohesiveness. Each track should compliment the next and add something to the track before it, and then the entire set should provide a comprehensive journey from point A to point B. The early Global Underground discs got this right more often than not, but they were a welcome exception to the rule.

I think we're sensitive to it on this forum becuase were all electronic music connesieurs in one form or another. Some of us are dance music people, some are not, but the point is that WE have a clue where most others do not. Personally, I like it that way. I like dance music AND electronic music to be underground and out of the mainstream spotlight, where it belongs.

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by msl

Terry Riley - A Rainbow in a curved air - 1969

at the time they just called it electronic music.

Minimalist music. He used tape loops and aucustic instruments as well.

[alexp]

I agree with a couple of points in this thread.


1st) The OP is right. There is a lot of more atmospheric stuff out there thats not dancey at all. A lot of early electronic music especially bug music has no dance elements at all, as its fairly random. But like everything in the world we live in, it does have rythym. Anything that repeats more than 2 times has a natural tempo. Everything from LFO's to the 4 seasons. Dance music is the oldest form of music, as it predates everything else by thousands of years. Early shamans used drums playing a steady four on the floor beat to get into ecstatic trance in order to perform healing work on the other members of the village.

2nd) - The unfortuneate truth is that we, as electronic musicians will always be followed around by the stigma of what 99% of the worlds population deems is dancey. God forbid you use a 909, your dance. 303? dancey. Any other synth tone or beat that makes people want to dance? Its dance music. Listen to an artist like Cevin Key. He is an absolutely brilliant electronic musician who uses the 909s, 303s, 808s. He also has tracks of pure lunacy.

YouTube - Cevin Key - The Guide

YouTube - Cevin Key - Affirmed

I dont consider this music dance music, even though it has beats that can be danced too. To me dance music places the focus of the track on the percussion which is why a lot of dance music has little or no substance to it, or in the rare case that it does, it is burried in the mix, lost under someones idea that they feel they should mix their tracks a certain way to fit in with a certain genre. Its with a sense of sadness that I see people that have fantastic setups doing fantastic things and then not using them as they are not within the genre of music that they want to be affiliated with. For this reason alone, hundreds of products have been developed by people for people who only want to do one type of music, which defeats the entire purpose of having a synthesizer. Synths were meant to allow you to come up with hundreds of thousands of new sounds, being able to mimic instruments, as well as develop your own. How many more youtube links do we need of someone with a system 100 using it for a 303 line or something. I think we as electronic musicians are caught up in about 20 or 30 diff sounds. We have lost the point of what these instruments are to be used for. Experimentation is key, and no one is going to push a genre, or start new ones with the same 30 sounds. Samplers have opened up some astounding possibilities in the last 20 years, although it seems everyone started to offer the same sets of sounds for them starting in the early 90s... How many variations on a 909 kick do we really need? Im totally guilty of this too, for sure, but I am really starting to move away from it, Sort of seperating myself from the masses and getting into diff things, different mindsets. From there, I can make different sounds and create different music. While I have Twitchcraft, which is obviously a rather synth poppy vibe that conforms to ideas and understandings about that genre, I also have Planb that is the exact opposite. Isnt it funny the difference in plays per day that both sites have. One is a lot more approachable in nature than the other, and this is reflected in the amount of people that listen to each. See for yourself

MySpace.com - Twitchcraft - Niagara, CA - New Wave / Alternative / Progressive - www.myspace.com/twitchcraft
MySpace.com - PLAN B - St. Catharines, CA - Hip Hop / Breakbeat / Ambient - www.myspace.com/alexpproductions

Just start pushing the envelope instead of sitting neatly inside waiting for that big break to come. Start a side project for just weird ideas, and then look at crossing some of those weird ideas over into your main project and see what happens. We as musicians may just be surprised at the outcome, and may even push our respected genres a bit.


alexP

[cl516]

Anyone else think the term really marginalizes electronic music, or are you content with having it applied to what you do?

Suddenly a food analogy pops into my head. A friend I grew up with thinks Chinese food is rice and soy sauce. That's it, nothing more.
Or if someone walks into a NYC pizza joint to grab a slice, then that must be Italian food. You can't argue with them, it really is what it is.

Don't get me wrong - I love Paula Abdul, C&C Music Factory, and the mainstream offerings that dominated in the late 90's, but only as part of the whole picture. For the friend I grew up with, THAT IS electronic music to him, which is dance music. That's all he knows, cuz that's all that was acceptable by the mainstream media.

Don't even ask me what he thinks is 'hip-hop / rap'. tutt

[Jazzpunk]

Just curious, why do you guys care if the average Joe Shmoe doesn't know the exact sub genre of music you are trying to pigeonhole yourself into? Does it hurt your feelings or something? Seems like a petty thing to waste your energy on to me.

[d1rtynyc]

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

Just curious, why do you guys care if the average Joe Shmoe doesn't know the exact sub genre of music you are trying to pigeonhole yourself into? Does it hurt your feelings or something? Seems like a petty thing to waste your energy on to me.

Very well said.

[drosophila]

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

Just curious, why do you guys care if the average Joe Shmoe doesn't know the exact sub genre of music you are trying to pigeonhole yourself into? Does it hurt your feelings or something? Seems like a petty thing to waste your energy on to me.

I don't so much care as I noticed that it kept popping up and thought it was kind of stupid, sort of like how "electronica" suddenly became the buzzword on MTV during the late 90's and I thought, "Um, what?" It's like watching a severely obese person order diet soda.

I'm not losing any sleep over it, though. I'm having a cup of coffee, reading GS, and trying to wake up. Not really much energy involved one way or another.