Prices are rising long term fact or fiction?

[Space Station]

Have prices of old synths really risen ridiculously? I keep seeing it written but I don't think I can agree.

In reality when you factor in inflation they have risen a bit, and some have not risen at all...for instance the 2600.

Realistic Arp 2600 price in 1995, (taken from a '95 price guide compiled from actual sale prices) £1000-£1100. Today realistic price: £2200

TB-303 £600, today £1000..crappy investment? Not that I invest in this stuff finacially.

In fact in '96 they were forcasting the collapse of vintage synth prices due to new equipment like the JP8000.

Now with the internet and ebay, there are a few dealers trying it on with stupid prices I know..but..I mean I paid £400 for my Solina in 1995 I had to wait 3 years for the dealer to find me one..and I had 8 people behind me in the queue.

How much more is it worth today?

I play guitar too and have a collection of 15 or so fenders...someone said they've risen crazy now..My '58 Fender Jazzmaster cost me £1000 in 1993, today it's worth £3000...hardly a massive, crazy rise is it?

Considering nothing is rare anymore..it's strange prices haven't gone down. Today I can buy virtually anything I want no matter how rare..

Collecting synths(or guitars) today isnt something to be admired...anyone with enough dollar can build an amazing collection of synths in a couple of weeks now.

I've witnessed people do it.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Space Station

Realistic Arp 2600 price in 1995, (taken from a '95 price guide compiled from actual sale prices) £1000-£1100. Today realistic price: £2200

Does that match or exceed inflation, I honestly can't be bothered to do the maths?

I haven't followed used prices for analogue for at least five years, since I pretty much gathered together the synths I really wanted and could use.
I must admit I've been surprised at some of the high prices mentioned on the forum over the last few months. I thought prices would have dipped since the release of more contemporary synths, plus the wider use of software.
In the end, I think the class act end of the vintage market will always hold it's value.
Old synths need maintaining however.
Even though I own a few classic synths I bought mid-90's, I don't feel I'm sitting on a gold mine. In fact I only hope I get back what I paid, plus the money I've put into keeping them going, if I ever decide to sell.

[CalvaryBand]

Yeah, I have for sure noticed. It was just a few years ago I bought my MS-20 for about 700 dollars. The dude had an MS-10, MS-20, and a VC-10 and I could've probably walked away with all of it for under a grand then, but didn't have the change. Good luck getting that kind of a deal today.

All the studios are buying up the expensive analog gear because electronic music is the now AND the future and it IS true; nothing now can truely sound like vintage except vintage. In an unfortunate trend instrument companies now cater to the hobbyist (and the extremely lazy), not the professional, realistically because of the odds of making money in the music business are very slim these days and people don't want to make such an investment in a hobby. Isn't it funny, look at DJing; the decks now are amazing, same with mixers, everything for the most part is a super huge improvement over the past. Go into some place like Guitar Center and you can get a fantastic DJ setup. Now go into the keyboard section; you couldn't pay me enough to write music on most of the shit there; want to know why? DJs make money, it drives the products higher and higher because everyone wants the new thing to give them the edge and they can afford it. Keyboardists and generally musicians (for the most part) don't make that much money so they'd rather stick with the failsafes, the workstation that nearly creates the music for them, and the analog emulations, because it makes little sense to drop 3k on a fantastic analog polysynth if that 500 dollar one sounds *almost* the same. You probably wouldn't get the return back on the 500 dollar keyboard very soon, much less the more expensive one, but the DJ can pay off his setup in a couple good nights. Thats just the way I see things, I know most of you here are pretty well off in the equipment department and probably make money off your music but I know a lot of people in the situation I described that don't.

The simple fact is that there aren't a lot of modern options when it comes to current analog, especially in the large retail sector because of that. All those Japanese companies have too much pride to step back in the past, companies like Oberheim and ARP aren't around anymore to carry the torch, and a lot of the modern companies around that built analogs don't want that kind of matience to deal with again, sans maybe moog and almost DSI.


Today is the shittiest day to try to get on the electronic music bus unless you like sitting in the back and having to make all your music on a laptop.

[chrisso]

I remember the early 90's, before the rebirth of Moog, the widespread availability of analogue modular systems, before the Nord lead, Poly Evolver etc, etc...
Now has never been a better time to enjoy synths since the first time around (70's).
I go to mainstream studios, not dance music specific ones, and mainstream studios are not buying analogue synths.
I think most analogue synths are bought by home studio owners.
Look at this forum. Nearly everyone has their own studio full of analogue gear. There are hardly any posts from big commercial studio users.

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Now has never been a better time to enjoy synths since the first time around (70's).

[drxcm]

Originally Posted by Calvary_Band

The simple fact is that there aren't a lot of modern options when it comes to current analog, especially in the large retail sector because of that. All those Japanese companies have too much pride to step back in the past, companies like Oberheim and ARP aren't around anymore to carry the torch, and a lot of the modern companies around that built analogs don't want that kind of matience to deal with again, sans maybe moog and almost DSI.


Today is the shittiest day to try to get on the electronic music bus unless you like sitting in the back and having to make all your music on a laptop.

I couldn't disagree more. There has ever been a better time for options. If you decided tomorrow to buy an analog synth, you could buy one brand new from the following manufacturers (not to mention the dozen or so companies producing modular synths). There is more on the market currently in terms of analogue than any other time in the history of synths.

Alesis
Studio Electronics
MFB
Dave Smith Instruments
Moog
Vermona
Future Retro
SMS
Cwejman
Macbeth

If you don' t want analogue there are DOZENs of other options - some incredibly cheap for what they offer.

I don't think there has ever been a better time to be into synths or synthesis, there are more options than ever before!

[Heathfinnie]

Well a year ago 5k for a Jupiter 8 would've been pretty out there...

[CalvaryBand]

There are lots of companies for sure but it seems like what is most available are monosynths and modular equipment. Consider me a bit uninformed but what are the options for a good mid-range polyphonic analog synth? Not nearly as many as their were in the early 80's it seems.

[CalvaryBand]

Originally Posted by Heathfinnie

Well a year ago 5k for a Jupiter 8 would've been pretty out there...

5500 is even more out there, Heath!

I bought that other Jupiter 8 off eBay for 3k. It's a lot of money but every sound that thing makes is gold.

[chrisso]

Polyphonic analogue synths were hugely expensive when they first came out (late 70's, early 80's).
I guess most current companies realise the market for another poly synth costing several thousand dollars is small.
That doesn't make this a shitty time for analogue synths or EM.
There has never been more choice IMO, with vintage/modern analogue and digital, plus software and sampling to choose from .... and reasonable prices for many new synths.

[CalvaryBand]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Polyphonic analogue synths were hugely expensive when they first came out (late 70's, early 80's).
I guess most current companies realise the market for another poly synth costing several thousand dollars is small.

I don't mean the giant OB-Xs and the Prophet 5s, I mean the Juno 60's, Korg Polysixes, Matrix-6's and Prophet 600's. I'd be very happy with a few modern equivalents to those but it doesn't seem like there are many. The Prophet 08 and the Polyevolver are close.

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by Calvary_Band

I don't mean the giant OB-Xs and the Prophet 5s, I mean the Juno 60's, Korg Polysixes, Matrix-6's and Prophet 600's. I'd be very happy with a few modern equivalents to those but it doesn't seem like there are many. The Prophet 08 and the Polyevolver are close.

All of those synths you listed are still available in good working condition and fairly easy to come by. They're also cheaper than what a boutique company would be able to offer for a modern equivalent!

[chrisso]

Anyway, whether a large variety of affordable analogue synths are available or not is less interesting than the original question IMHO.

Originally Posted by Space Station

Have prices of old synths really risen ridiculously? I keep seeing it written but I don't think I can agree.

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Anyway, whether a large variety of affordable analogue synths are available or not is less interesting than the original question IMHO.

Is there supposed to be a 'right' or 'wrong' answer to the OP's question? It all seems pretty subjective to me.

[Hol]

Too many variables really I guess........and no one can be arsed to do the maths! Or find out what the rate of inflation has been over the period..........I'm not going to do it anyway!

[nofi]

I've seen prices for lots of random things go WAY up lately.

top end stuff like minimioogs and prophet 5's and JP8s were almost always pricey (except maybe when the DX7 came out and the m1, etc and analogue was considered old and dead) but it's the small random stuff that's gone way up in price in the last year.

for instance SH-2 used to be worth AU$400-450ish 1 year ago, and they were around that price for years and years.... now the last one I saw on ebay went for AU$900... a year or two ago, a minikorg 700s wouldn't have even been worth selling. last one I saw must have gone for about $650.. insane! pro-ones have more than doubled, etc etc... suddenly anything "analog" and with knobs is a must have vintage source of phatt classic tones, and blah blah blah.

it's kinda funny, but also a bit annoying cause there's 1 or 2 pieces I always thought I might get one day, to play with and try out. but at their modern prices I wouldn't be bothered. they're just not worth it.

[crufty]

what i find completely amazing is that roland has this huge back catalog of highly desirable synths and they haven't figured out a way to capitalize on them.

anyway inflation isn't really a great measure of prices. but...it's at about 25% from 1998 to 2008 in USD. Something that cost $1.00 in 1982 costs $1.58 in 1997 and $2.11 in 2008.

so that makes gear a pretty bad investment really. If you bought something for $750 in 1998 and sold it for $1000 you broke even...

[crufty]

also, for what its worth...

when people complain about prices rising, it's really not inflation that people are complaining about. It's wages...

So while inflation (price of goods) has risen 25% in 10 years, real wages have not (real wages being how much you pocket when adjusted for inflation)--real wages have only risen by 8%. The average real wage in America in the sixties was $300 a week. Today, It's $270. However, in the nineties it was $250!!

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by nofi

for instance SH-2 used to be worth AU$400-450ish 1 year ago, and they were around that price for years and years.... now the last one I saw on ebay went for AU$900... a year or two ago, a minikorg 700s wouldn't have even been worth selling. last one I saw must have gone for about $650.. insane! pro-ones have more than doubled, etc etc... suddenly anything "analog" and with knobs is a must have vintage source of phatt classic tones, and blah blah blah.

It's no mystery. Forums are flooded with people screaming the praises of synths like the SH-2 and the Pro One. What happens? Supply stays the same, demand goes up and voila-instant jump in price.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

Is there supposed to be a 'right' or 'wrong' answer to the OP's question?

Nope, but I was hoping a potentially interesting discussion wouldn't get bogged down by a back and forth argument over affordable, contemporary synths.
Anyway, I'm reading the latest opinions on synth inflation with interest.
thumbsup

[Reptil]

agree. there's plenty of analogue new stuff being made. just look at the modulars. it's booming. lot's of different options in hardwired synths as well.
the reason for the popularity is that there is a growing collectors market, and that indie and pop bands use this stuff as well now (instead of just guitars) Synths with a heritage are fashionable.

[Mike6581]

I think vintage clobber is going up in value because people realise that other people still want it and are willing to pay top dollar. Many of the people selling now might have bought their synths when they were unfashionable and loved them to bits and now they're getting megabucks prices, they've decided to flog them. If I'd bought a couple of JP-8s at 1991 prices, I could quite easily do without one knowing I'd make a markup of about 1000% on what I paid! Alas I haven't and I paid a hefty price, albiet only a couple of hundred quid more than the Voyager costs new. I don't regret it though as it's my favourite synth of all time.

I think that vintage synths are also becoming more and iconic and the further and further into the mists of time they go, the more we long for them. However, apart from sterling efforts from Moog and Dave Smith, as someone else mentioned, I can't see the Japanese giants making their old synths again or something close, but you never know. The one thing that would be probitive of making a new "Jupiter 8" for instance would be the cost. Even with 2008 electronics, the fundamental architecture of that beast would still probably end up with a retail cost well over £4000 - if you compare it to say, the price-complexity of a Moog Voyager. Though this might be a bit of a naive benchmark.

The interesting thing about the Moog Voyager (and now the OS) is that I think it's actually had a positive effect on the prices of MiniMoogs. They're stuck around the £1500-£2500 mark and haven't really gone insanely expensive in the last couple of years. That's still a hefty price tag, but if you compare it to a Moog Taurus or a MemoryMoog then it's pretty cheap! I don't think the same will apply with the P08 vs P5 as the Prophet 08 is a closer beast to the Prophet 600 than the mighty P5, not that I don't love my P08 to bits that is.

I think the recent price hike in stuff like Pro Ones, SH-101s and Jupiter 4s might be down to people thinking "I can't afford a P5 or a Jupiter 8, so one of these will do!" Not that they're not great synths in their own right mind you.

As for Fender/Gibson, I think part of the reason the vintage gear is so valuable is because many vintage guitars play far, far better than the current stuff they're churning out, barring custom shop stuff - but then that's stupendously expensive. I've got a 67 Precision (fortunately bought for far less than it's worth) and it's just better than a USA Standard in every single way! However part of this might be the fact that labour and material costs to produce a modern Fender Precision is far higher than it was in 1967, but comparitively the price of a Precision now is far cheaper than in 1967 (with inflation in mind).

[dlmorley]

I think that relative to guitars, synths are undervalued BUT they have been good investments if you got the right ones (like any investment)
ARP 2600 for me was a great investment because no matter what it cost or is worth now, I use it constantly and it's the best synth ever for serious work.
My Buchla 200 has probably gone up 20 times from what I paid (or that is the offer I just got that I turned down)
My VCS3 was $1000 maybe 12 years ago. Maybe $6000 now?
The Crumar Spirit has just shot up. Rarity there but also, it's just about one of the coolest machines around and maybe people are realising it.
Others, not so good perhaps, but still in the last 10 years most the nice synths have doubled or tripled.
Just don't make the mistake in thinking that they will keep going up. They may do, but like all collectibles, only the cream of the crop really make serious money.


BUT the real value in all this stuff is the really good synths can help you make some really good music, which can generat income and be fun to use and own. We aren't collecting toy trains that are nice to play with, we are collecting tools of a trade, so not only is it good to have your money invested in something which won't lose it's value like a new synth, it might also generate some income..

I'd still like a 1955 Gibson Goldtop though....

[crufty]

Originally Posted by dlmorley

BUT the real value in all this stuff is the really good synths can help you make some really good music, which can generat income and be fun to use and own.

thumbsup

I'm no finance wizard but, for comparison, what is considered a 'good' investment in many circles is one that goes up in value by 10% a year. So something purchased for $1000 that sells for $2500 or more 10 years from that point is a good investment... $1k to $6k is a GREAT investment. Note that $1000 -> $2500 has a real gain of only $1250, adjusting for inflation. That's still pretty good.

Still. Sonics are what matter, and really there are more sure returns if one is looking just to make money (esp investments that generate income w/out requiring any input from the owner eg dividends / bond yields etc). One take on spending is that if you buy something and use it, then it doesn't matter what you paid for it--its not an investment its a good you enjoy. For example a house--you might have technically overpaid for a house, but if you live in it for 30 years then who cares? Value only matters when its time to sell. Investing in gear is like investing in wine. Its more fun to drink wine then sell it (in my opinion anyway).

Then again, according to another thread, all gear is a GREAT investment, especially for married folk. "Hey honey how much is that arp thingy? It sure is big." "*thinking quickly* ahhh errr $400 from err craigslist! And look, uhh one just sold on ebay for $5k! WE GOT A GREAT DEAL! Yeah!"

[jvt]

Originally Posted by drxcm

There is more on the market currently in terms of analogue than any other time in the history of synths.

Alesis
Studio Electronics
MFB
Dave Smith Instruments
Moog
Vermona
Future Retro
SMS
Cwejman
Macbeth

And lets not forget:
Doepfer
Plan B
Serge
Modcan
Analogue Solutions
Livewire
Metasonix
Harvestman

Indeed it is a great time! So much to choose from. I still want an ARP 2600 though...

[The_Crooked_Man]

Alesis?! Psht. Gotta throw Jomox in there

[RobJB06]

FACT

[Eric J]

Originally Posted by drxcm

I couldn't disagree more. There has ever been a better time for options. If you decided tomorrow to buy an analog synth, you could buy one brand new from the following manufacturers (not to mention the dozen or so companies producing modular synths). There is more on the market currently in terms of analogue than any other time in the history of synths.

Alesis
Studio Electronics
MFB
Dave Smith Instruments
Moog
Vermona
Future Retro
SMS
Cwejman
Macbeth

If you don' t want analogue there are DOZENs of other options - some incredibly cheap for what they offer.

I don't think there has ever been a better time to be into synths or synthesis, there are more options than ever before!

OK, so I have several questions regarding this....

Other than the DSI, Alesis A6 and Moog synths, I see very few electronic musicians extolling the virtues of the other manufacturers listed here. I have only seen a few of the members on this forum who sing the praises of any of the other synths on the above list, and I wonder why that is? Even some of the "big" producers make no mention of these smaller manufacturers, and when I see studio gear lists they all seem to have large collections of VA's, but rarely any true analog synths.

• Is it perhaps that these guys are not aware of these smaller synth manufacturers?
• Are they lured by the "big" names in VA such as Access, Clavia, etc. and fail to consider the smaller manufacturers?

One other thing I thought of was that maybe some of these guys have substandard audio interfaces and/or monitoring setups and are not able to hear the deficiencies of many of the VA's when compared to a true analog? I've seen several "big" producers with mid-grade audio interfaces and monitors (Mackie/MOTU). I just made a huge monitor upgrade myself from HR824's to Focal Twins and the sonic differences are enormous. Is it possible that they cannot hear the differences?

[alexp]

Theres an Oberheim SEM on ebay right now with a buy it now of 2k.....


That pretty much sums up the market atm.


alexP

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by alexp

Theres an Oberheim SEM on ebay right now with a buy it now of 2k.....


That pretty much sums up the market atm.


alexP

Only if someone buys it!