Your own TR808+TR909 vs. Your own Samples:

[cl516]

From a strictly recording perspective,

I am curious what, if any, are the specific advantages of recording the live output of an 808/909, versus sequencing your own homemade samples of the same machine?

(this assumes you're satisfied with your homegrown samples)

For the live machines,
Is it the groove / swing?
Is it the fact that every sound is a little bit different?
Is it the fact that one has more options before committing to tape / disk?

I'm trying to decide whether to keep my babies.

[dannygold]

Well, you can tweak the tuning, snap, etc on these roland drum machines. I suppose some drum sample libraries cover all all the possible combinations, but it's not really the same thing as having the knob to twiddle. Still, I wouldn't pay what people want for X0X drum machines. Way over priced for what you get. At the very least get a modern clone so you're not paying the premium for the vintage aspect. Or check out the gold baby sample libraries. They seem good. Or Waldorf attack is a very good and flexible drum synth plugin that does X0X sounds well.

[cl516]

True about the tweaking. I suppose I could record most of the possible combinations before selling my 808 and 909.

[Konketsu]

For me, there are a few things that the 909 does for me:

The immediacy and the effortlessness of getting a good pattern going on the 909: Shift ->tap mode, whack whack whack on the voice buttons, set shuffle to "sweet", done. I find the tactile feedback of the main buttons inspiring and pleasant, and that I come up with less rigid (or more intuitive) patterns this way as compared to dropping the notes onto the grid In Logic or trying to play the notes in on a keyboard or midi controller.

The ability to get the voices to sit nicely with the other track elements in terms of tune/timbre by simply tweaking the parameters as the pattern cycles.

The warmth that comes from the machine. I don't mean the "warm sound", I mean the actual heat coming off the back/top of the instrument. It feels, well, alive for lack of a better word.

fwiw.

[Acid Hazard]

I liken using samples of analogue gear to watching a movie by looking at stills. But i guess for someone who doesn't grab those knobs and alter drum sounds on the fly, it probably doesn't matter. But you can't tune the cymbal using samples like you can on the 909. I love the sound of that ride cymbal gliding up and down in pitch.

[explorer]

The way a real 909 snare moves is quite nice. A sample sounds static compared. Having said that I normally use samples for kicks as I want them to be consistent...

[esaias]

For example 909's snare are clap change constantly, you can hear this by filling a pattern with full 16th's hit's with snare or clap. This is something I have not yet heard any software being able to replicate.

There's also the fact that when you're tweaking the instrument live, you can easily start pushing/peaking you board's/interface's inputs without noticing and it may give you better sounding results than cleanly recorded samples.

Real world is always changing some way, digital domain is not.

-Tomi

ps. if you have 909 and 808, keep them!! (unless you really want to sell me that 808 really cheap ;P )

[rachel]

I have the best of both, with a Drumstation. It's part analogue modeling and part
sample. I like it because I just treat it like hardware. I don't know if it is exactly like the 808/909
but it works for me.



rachel

[cl516]

You guys have some good points here.

Just for this discussion's sake though:

regarding the points about how the snare / clap is always changing,

couldn't one just record 16 different samples, and always use a different one next in the sequence? pain in the butt, but would it work similar?

live tweaks would definitely be out though...

[living sounds]

Hardware sounds a little different with every hit. Even the sample based stuff due to analog VCAs.
I also think that the converters used for most libraries weren't of the best kind, and this makes a different with analog percussion.
There's also something to be said about the sequencers of those machines. They don't produce perfect accuracy, and what comes out somehow works better on the human psychoacoustic level than DAW precision.

[sctt_stone]

question? I have a 999 and cant belive that the step sequencing is so rigid.
I am used to programming things in Logic and realizing that you are limited to 4/4
and that you cannot easily do things like triplets has totally killed it for me.
Thats one reason its on Ebay.
I dont want my drum machine to feel like a machine.
Oh yeah and the fact that there are only two velocity levels. Hard and normal?
So my question is am I a dumb ass and these machines are capable of more than I realize or are they really this limited?

[Acid Hazard]

Originally Posted by sctt_stone

I dont want my drum machine to feel like a machine.

What part of drum MACHINE did you not understand? It's a machine. It's going to sound rigid. It's for making dance music. Which is... well, rather rigidly structured. You're not going to get a "human feel" out of it, that's not it's purpose. Record some drummers if you want that.

[cl516]

machine is a different thing than tight and groovy. some drum machines sound more machine than others that's for sure.

[Konketsu]

Originally Posted by sctt_stone

question? I have a 999 and cant belive that the step sequencing is so rigid.
I am used to programming things in Logic and realizing that you are limited to 4/4
and that you cannot easily do things like triplets has totally killed it for me.
Thats one reason its on Ebay.
I dont want my drum machine to feel like a machine.
Oh yeah and the fact that there are only two velocity levels. Hard and normal?
So my question is am I a dumb ass and these machines are capable of more than I realize or are they really this limited?

You're only limited to 4/4 if you stay within the 16 step paradigm as gospel. f'rinstance, if you chain two patterns that have lengths of eight- and twelve- 16th notes respectively, you give yourself twenty 16th notes, which divides down to 5/4 compound meter.

This chained pattern compound meter works when slaving to Logic on all the TRs that I've tried it with (606, 808, 909) so I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work for the Jomox.

Two velocity levels are pretty much the norm with drum machines, but can't you set the instrument accent and global accent, which would give you three velocity levels?

I tend to use triplets on instruments other than the drum machine, so I can't really comment on that.

[sctt_stone]

Thank you. This is what Ihave been looking for.
So there are ways to step out of the 16 step grid. I asked the shop that I bought this from and I dont think that they understood the question.
I love the way it sounds but I want more freedom in sequencing the unit without a computer.
I will try this out.

Originally Posted by Konketsu

You're only limited to 4/4 if you stay within the 16 step paradigm as gospel. f'rinstance, if you chain two patterns that have lengths of eight- and twelve- 16th notes respectively, you give yourself twenty 16th notes, which divides down to 5/4 compound meter.

This chained pattern compound meter works when slaving to Logic on all the TRs that I've tried it with (606, 808, 909) so I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work for the Jomox.

Two velocity levels are pretty much the norm with drum machines, but can't you set the instrument accent and global accent, which would give you three velocity levels?

I tend to use triplets on instruments other than the drum machine, so I can't really comment on that.

[tomazzzi]

909 808 are so intuitive

for many years i though i d be able to replace them

i v tried every samples vst etc...

NO WAY

i can t get the same life on my tracks without the 909

[cl516]

Bump.

[alexp]

Those machines never trigger the same sound twice. Just like any other analogue synth, theres a movement thats almost organic that makes them stand out from the rest. Can not be duplicated.


alexP

[chrisso]

I find given all the parameters you can change, it's very hard to comprehensively sample the 808 and 909. You can only sample some of your favourite sounds.
Then there is the ability to alter sounds on the fly (slightly open the hi-hat for example, or add more slosh to the snare).
Then there is the groove, which is legendary.
I'm not against sampled drum sounds though.
many dance records feature beefed up sounds which were once 808 and 909, but have been effected and added to then resampled. Plus there are non 808/909 sounds you can add to the track.

[firby]

Originally Posted by Konketsu

You're only limited to 4/4 if you stay within the 16 step paradigm as gospel.

Blasphemer!! Heretic !!!

16 beat 4/4 is the freaking Gospel for those machines. It just is. And this is coming from a total free jazz crazy meter schooled jazz drumming freak.

16 beat 4/4 and one of those machines that does it bad ass. That's all you need to do THAT.

Regards.

And maybe just a bit of swing baby. Praise the Lord.

[kuroichi]

Originally Posted by sctt_stone

question? I have a 999 and cant belive that the step sequencing is so rigid.
I am used to programming things in Logic and realizing that you are limited to 4/4
and that you cannot easily do things like triplets has totally killed it for me.
Thats one reason its on Ebay.
I dont want my drum machine to feel like a machine.
Oh yeah and the fact that there are only two velocity levels. Hard and normal?
So my question is am I a dumb ass and these machines are capable of more than I realize or are they really this limited?

Just thought I'd mention that the jomox can respond to velocity but only when programmed by MIDI.

The closest replication of the snare clap differences I've heard is the drumazon plug in.

The funny thing about 909s and so on is that once it's in a track a lot of people can't tell real from sample. Yet there's all this talk of 'oh you can't replicate it' etc.

I do agree but most of the differences are only noticeable by the user. Not the listener. With the exception that some people who own a real 909/808/whatever might be able to tell the difference.

Who here actually owns a 909 or 808?

[mikecook]

Originally Posted by chrisso

many dance records feature beefed up sounds which were once 808 and 909, but have been effected and added to then resampled. Plus there are non 808/909 sounds you can add to the track.

I agree.. layering sounds is key to coming up with something original and not having a drumtrack sound like just another 808/909

[dsound]

I've found that the MPC 1K is a great way to go. Of course it's sample based but there is something about the hardware sequencer, especially the MPC that gives it a certain feel. My MPC if funkier than any of my software drum plugs. I have 909, 808, 606 and many other kits in the MPC. I also sample the Battery kits, running them through 2 Focusrites with a little comp and eq processing. MPC is a great hardware option.

[badmark]

Originally Posted by dsound

I've found that the MPC 1K is a great way to go. Of course it's sample based but there is something about the hardware sequencer, especially the MPC that gives it a certain feel. My MPC if funkier than any of my software drum plugs. I have 909, 808, 606 and many other kits in the MPC. I also sample the Battery kits, running them through 2 Focusrites with a little comp and eq processing. MPC is a great hardware option.

+1

[cl516]

I do agree but most of the differences are only noticeable by the user. Not the listener. With the exception that some people who own a real 909/808/whatever might be able to tell the difference.

Who here actually owns a 909 or 808?

Well, I started this thread, and for now I still own a 909 and 808.

I also have the MPC1K and do my fair share of drums on that unit too.

This issue at hand remains open for me...

[crufty]

Originally Posted by sctt_stone

Thank you. This is what Ihave been looking for.
So there are ways to step out of the 16 step grid. I asked the shop that I bought this from and I dont think that they understood the question.
I love the way it sounds but I want more freedom in sequencing the unit without a computer.
I will try this out.

fyi the jomox was specifically designed to give 1/32 steps as well, try the different modes IIRC. So to get 1/16 notes w/ 1/32 steps use both A and B patterns in the doubletime mode, IIRC. Then there is swing etc, and of course 3/4 v 4/4.

I have started to sequence 999 via logic now instead and find it a lot more flexible.

also

there is something to be said about syncing up a 909/808/303x2 and just going nuts. go out into a field, start a bonfire and scare the wildlife!

[kuroichi]

Originally Posted by cl516

Well, I started this thread, and for now I still own a 909 and 808.

I also have the MPC1K and do my fair share of drums on that unit too.

This issue at hand remains open for me...

I don't think you should sell them, you should weigh up how much usage they both see versus other samples/machines you have.

If the 808/909 sound is a base part of your productions then you shouldn't sell, since all of those little differences (like the sound differences and dials for each) will affect you.

However if you don't use them that much, they could be replaced.

The difference as a user is that with an actual 909 or 808 that sees a lot of use, you will exploit all of the available features, (like the differences available in the snare etc) and you cant produce enough samples to replicate that in its entirety for every sound. Its just a lot easier to use the real thing. Think about how many times your 909 has produced a different snare sound even though the dials haven't moved, due to temperature or whatever, all of those slight differences are part of the machine.

The reason I ask who owns one is because a lot of people who don't often have something to say about how great they are, but base it on hype, rather than actual knowledge of the machine. I just think there is a lot of bias in favour of the Rolands that dosen't help when someone has a serious question.

[Konketsu]

Originally Posted by firby

Blasphemer!! Heretic !!!

16 beat 4/4 is the freaking Gospel for those machines. It just is. And this is coming from a total free jazz crazy meter schooled jazz drumming freak.

16 beat 4/4 and one of those machines that does it bad ass. That's all you need to do THAT.

Regards.

And maybe just a bit of swing baby. Praise the Lord.

If 4/4 is the gospel for these machines than I consider myself a gnostic. That's not to say that I don't love a healthy dose of kick on the 1/4s though.

Greets.

[Konketsu]

Originally Posted by kuroichi

The funny thing about 909s and so on is that once it's in a track a lot of people can't tell real from sample. Yet there's all this talk of 'oh you can't replicate it' etc.

I do agree but most of the differences are only noticeable by the user. Not the listener. With the exception that some people who own a real 909/808/whatever might be able to tell the difference.

Who here actually owns a 909 or 808?

909 owner here. You're right, within the context of a recorded track most people probably couldn't tell, and I agree that most of the differences are only noticable by the user of the instrument.

That being said, a 909 or 808 playing "live" over a club sound system is something pretty amazing (I've argued this point a lot in the past) and in my (reasonably informed by experience) opinion this is where the TR machines really stand apart sonically speaking.

But certainly a big part of the hype around these instruments is built primarily on the perspective of the user of the instrument, and subsequently regurgitated by people that may or may not have spent any significant amount of time with the instrument. For myself, the 909 lends itself to writing in a really inspiring way that I don't experience when using, say, the d16 clones, or Battery, or whatever. The combination of the physical feel of the machine, the tones and sounds, the user interface and the instant tactile and visual feedback all contribute to a sum that is greater than its constituents.

It may, however, be worth mentioning that I learned to use hardware before I learned how to use software so in all likelihood I've predisposed myself to an OTB bias simply by virtue of how my musical education unfolded.

Just an opinion though, fwiw.