Chord progression generator or tips?
#151
6th October 2010
Old 6th October 2010
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intellijel View Post
I have learned a little music theory and it helped me understand the basics of scales/modes and resolving chord progressions. Prior to this I intuitively knew what sounded right and it was good to learn some theory to explain but more importantly to help solve problems.

Since I can't play piano I still clumsily struggle to put together chord progressions by a combination of sloppy keyboard playing attempts and a lot of editing to fix things. It is usually very frustrating to have a clear idea in my head of the complex chord progression I want and then have to spend a loooong time slowly adjusting each chord and moving around notes until I get it right. Someone who is a properly trained musician could probably do this in seconds.

I am looking for tools / tutorials to help me form chord progressions. I have googled but mainly found stuff for guitar (e.g. chord progression generators).
I am especially interested in more complex chord progressions and ones based on more interesting modes. I like modes that are a little darker, moodier and trippy. Stuff with minor 7 and diminished chords for example.


Any tips?

Yamaha QY series - QY70 and 100 definitely have preset chord progressions
Roland JamStation does too
#152
7th October 2010
Old 7th October 2010
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleestack View Post
all this advice is pointless to me as its missing one fact, people learn in different ways. Tools might help some people. The rules are the same. Whatever helps you wrap your head around it is all that matters. Schools don't seem to understand that people learn in their own unique way and just rephrasing something can make a huge difference to understanding. anyway
#153
7th October 2010
Old 7th October 2010
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
This is not directed at you, as a teacher myself, often when people say things like "I learn in my own way", I hear code speak for "I'm too lazy to learn in the right way".

Only a good teacher can evaluate how you learn, that's his job, not yours. He'll structure a good course around your limitations and/or strengths. Anyone can learn a modicum of musical theory, certainly enough to be creative and productive with the aide of a good teacher (provided the interest is there).

There's no substitute for knowledge, the great american ex-patriot composer Virgil Thompson said it best when he said "who knows more about music than a composer?"


I would be interested to know how this translates to real life/creativity


What percentage of highly talented/creative people know the information you think is so important
and conversely how many talented people get by without it

I would guess that very few people here will have 4 years worth of theory knowledge and many of the respected musicians of the past didn't either - but I may be wrong on this

Anyone have any facts or opinoins on this ?
#154
16th October 2010
Old 16th October 2010
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reptil View Post
I have one too. It's great. So is this thread. Temp. sticky.
Quote:
Originally Posted by intellijel View Post
I found the best solution! C-Thru Music home page
Now I can make any chord in any key, play any scale, easily invert chords and a lot more. It takes a little while to get used to but the structure makes so much sense. A little while ago they had a half price sale on these but now that I have one I know that it is definitely worth the price tag in usefulness.
I just found an iPad/iPhone version of that keyboard layout !
Hex Series - Hex OSC Full / Hex OSC S / Hex Keys - Hexagonal Musical MIDI/OSC Keyboard for iPad / iPhone / iPod touch
#155
17th October 2010
Old 17th October 2010
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drak12 View Post
I would be interested to know how this translates to real life/creativity


What percentage of highly talented/creative people know the information you think is so important
and conversely how many talented people get by without it

I would guess that very few people here will have 4 years worth of theory knowledge and many of the respected musicians of the past didn't either - but I may be wrong on this

Anyone have any facts or opinoins on this ?
The thing that I think many people confuse is that the knowledge of music is all encompassing and relates to every type and form of music on this planet.

It is one and the same.

Some seem to get into this pseudo elitist attitude that it only refers to 'classical' music or 'Jazz' ... It doesn't.. it covers all forms of music.

Whether you call it 'theory' call it 'harmony' call it 'chord structure' call it 'Doing My Thing The Way I Learned It From My Own Experiments' ... It all boils down to the same language and common forms of structures whether its a pop song or a Mozart sonata.

Eroll Garner was one of the greatest jazz pianists of all time. He could play the most complexed voicings of chords and perform the most beautiful versions of songs with his own complete style ... yet he couldn't read a note of music ! ... He learned all of his harmony on his own from playing the piano ten hours a day every day and from never playing a song in public untill he'd played it on his own for six months..... He worked at it in his own way but still gained the same understanding of how the music worked as anyone else could have done via a different or similar route.

Talent is learned and anyone can become Talented with the time and dedication.

Learning is about understanding from memory the Why, When, and Hows.... sadly I have to say that relying on a book to show you what chords and what scales to play is going to be a bit like needing a book to remember your times tables ... great as long as it's memorized and understood.

There are no rules as to how you gain the knowledge but there are pathways that are more easily followed than others...

It is one music, one language, one common tongue.

Beer.
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ark
#156
23rd October 2010
Old 23rd October 2010
  #156
ark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
It is one music, one language, one common tongue.
However, it has many dialects and accents.

Indian classical music is dramatically different from German classical music, for example. Think Ravi Shankar vs. Beethoven.

Moreover, the musical language changes over time. Bach's music was considered old-fashioned even while he was in his prime, whereas Beethoven's music was considered so weird that the orchestra actually balked at playing his 5th and 6th symphonies on the basis that "that's not music!"

Last edited by ark; 23rd October 2010 at 03:29 PM.. Reason: added the last paragraph
#157
24th October 2010
Old 24th October 2010
  #157
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crufty's Avatar
@drak, i'm w/beer master, amen

process + desire = talent

my opinion:To paraphrase Dali, "I do not do X, I *am* X". an informal education in preparation for a formal process lays the foundation for the fringes. Anyone can stumble on the cutting edge. But to actually cut a path there, it helps to know what the existing formalities are, so that one can turn it upside down.

So I would view a formal music theory as ideal, but only after one has spent the time preparing a world view that enables skepticism. Why should one accept what the masters teach? It is the role of the student to doubt. Then, the light bulb goes off--clarity comes...and the teaching is not the facts, not the reality, but the process. What would take one decades of self exploration is revealed in mere years. Then the student can become a master, teaching others with their discoveries.
ark
#158
24th October 2010
Old 24th October 2010
  #158
ark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
So I would view a formal music theory as ideal, but only after one has spent the time preparing a world view that enables skepticism. Why should one accept what the masters teach?
I knew a manager once who convinced one of his people to go to some kind of employee-indoctrination thing by asking:

"I know you have no intention of following the rules, but won't it make it easier for you not to follow them if you know what they are?"
#159
25th October 2010
Old 25th October 2010
  #159
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Boom.
#160
31st October 2010
Old 31st October 2010
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
@drak, i'm w/beer master, amen

process + desire = talent

my opinion:To paraphrase Dali, "I do not do X, I *am* X". an informal education in preparation for a formal process lays the foundation for the fringes. Anyone can stumble on the cutting edge. But to actually cut a path there, it helps to know what the existing formalities are, so that one can turn it upside down.

So I would view a formal music theory as ideal, but only after one has spent the time preparing a world view that enables skepticism. Why should one accept what the masters teach? It is the role of the student to doubt. Then, the light bulb goes off--clarity comes...and the teaching is not the facts, not the reality, but the process. What would take one decades of self exploration is revealed in mere years. Then the student can become a master, teaching others with their discoveries.
In theory this sounds ok. But theory can be misleading as it looks at a narrow aspect of reality.

Learning is left brained - creativity is left brained.
Spend too much time on left brain stuff and you approach creativity with that. I have seen examples of that from people who have been through music education yet are often not creative. They make great music teachers etc but you often find they are not more creative as a result of their education - I'm thinking of people who have been through the local College of Music as an example.

Any interesting question would be - What percentage of the highly respected and successful musicians had formal music education?

Learning the same info as you go along and incorporating it into a creative and exploratory approach maybe works differently?

I don't know the answers but it sounds worth thinking about in greater depth.
#161
1st November 2010
Old 1st November 2010
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drak12 View Post
In theory this sounds ok. But theory can be misleading as it looks at a narrow aspect of reality.
It's not theory if you take a look at the great musicians and composers of the ages...


Quote:
Originally Posted by drak12 View Post
Learning is left brained - creativity is left brained.
Spend too much time on left brain stuff and you approach creativity with that. I have seen examples of that from people who have been through music education yet are often not creative. They make great music teachers etc but you often find they are not more creative as a result of their education
I totally agree with you ! Many learn parrot fashion how to play piece 'X' and rely on having the music in front of them- performers not creators.

I guess you can compare it to the amount of people who learn to read and become more inspired by vocabulary and grammar. Many don't end up writing books or prose and that's ok but you'd have a hard time finding successful writers who don't have this education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drak12 View Post
Any interesting question would be - What percentage of the highly respected and successful musicians had formal music education?
Well I guess that depends on what you think a 'formal' musical education is ? - as I said earlier in this thread all music is one common set of 'rules' whether you approach that from a 'classical-era' approach, a 'Jazz Theory' approach or strumming a guitar and hearing that Dm7 kind feels good followed by G7 it's all the same stuff !


Quote:
Originally Posted by drak12 View Post
Learning the same info as you go along and incorporating it into a creative and exploratory approach maybe works differently?
Well only a very small minority of people have the ambition, dedication and time to go it all alone and succeed in un-earthing the secrets of harmony and chords...melody and rhythm, syncopation and arrangement, form and stucture -Many different layers of study all interwoven and all as complexed or simple as you want to make them - totally on their own.

Most successful writers and performers immerse themselves in all kinds of writing and performance with others which naturally becomes a form of learning and study be it jamming with friends or doing cover versions of pop songs...listening to the strings on a soundtrack and being inspired to write in a similar style... its all forms of learning... it's possible to get quite far but this is all a form of learning theory.

Most of the time when I'm scoring I'm not consciously thinking of formulas of chord structures or selecting modes and scales to play... my mind is completely open and my hands just go where they want... thats not to say that subconsciously my ear isn't being led to places it knows work better than other places. The great thing about understanding more about music call it 'theory' call experience or what ever is being able to choose to use that knowledge or not. - If i'm stuck getting the middle 8 back round to the home key for the final chorus then I can start to think about what's going on and what options there are..

There are no mythical magical powers or 'gifted' people... just people who want nothing in their lives more than learning about music and how it works... anyone can gain this knowledge in many different ways.... but it is a knowledge and it is DNA of all music one and the same.
#162
2nd November 2010
Old 2nd November 2010
  #162
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The Real Book
#163
2nd November 2010
Old 2nd November 2010
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drak12 View Post
In theory this sounds ok. But theory can be misleading as it looks at a narrow aspect of reality.

Learning is left brained - creativity is left brained.
Spend too much time on left brain stuff and you approach creativity with that. I have seen examples of that from people who have been through music education yet are often not creative. They make great music teachers etc but you often find they are not more creative as a result of their education - I'm thinking of people who have been through the local College of Music as an example.

Any interesting question would be - What percentage of the highly respected and successful musicians had formal music education?

Learning the same info as you go along and incorporating it into a creative and exploratory approach maybe works differently?

I don't know the answers but it sounds worth thinking about in greater depth.
BTW i read in the new scientist the other day that the whole idea of left brain logic right brain creativity has been proven to be B.S. those were the words they said: Bull.Shine.
thumbsup
#164
2nd November 2010
Old 2nd November 2010
  #164
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crufty's Avatar
true dat gbeers.

i actually read not too long ago, one theory--one side of the brain is for now, the other side is the future, for predicting outcomes.

If you look at a door knob, one side is active "THIS IS A JOURNEY INTO SOU...err..THIS IS A DOOR."

Witness your roomate reaching for the door knob, the other side activates: "probability of door knob being grasped: high; probability of door knob being rotated: high; probability of door being pulled and opened; high. probability of hitman standing on other side of door: low (err). time frame--xyz ms."

theory is, while one part of your brain is figuring out what your roomie is probably going to do, the other part can use the current state "fridge status is empty" and use the timing gap to plot next actions "in a blink, say HEY DUDE GET BEER WHILE YOU ARE OUT" before your roommate actually departs.

scientists witnessed all kinds of cross talk between the two sides once the predictive criteria (action, really) was met. kind of interesting to think our brains are these probability computers...anyway...not to get too off tangent, I'm sure there is a nice link w/improvisation techniques here somewhere...
#165
6th December 2010
Old 6th December 2010
  #165
ark
#166
12th December 2010
Old 12th December 2010
  #166
ark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
So I would view a formal music theory as ideal, but only after one has spent the time preparing a world view that enables skepticism. Why should one accept what the masters teach?
Because music theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.

In other words, music theory is a strategy for understanding and describing the structure of a piece of music.

By implication, music theory has subcategories that deal with particular kinds of music. The vocabulary and ideas that one uses to talk about the music of Bach is very different from what one uses to talk about the music of, say, John Coltrane. Music from India is based on a completely different set of theoretical notions than music from Europe, or from China.

Having a way of talking about what happens in a piece of music does two things. First, it makes it possible to talk with other people about what the music is doing. But second, and probably more important, it gives you cues as to what kinds of musical events are considered important in a particular style of music.

Here's an example: http://soundcloud.com/andrew-koenig/fugue

This music was written by J. S. Bach near the end of his life. He did not indicate what instrument or instruments he intended to use to play it--all he wrote was the notes. When you listen to it, how do you think about what is going on? What are you listening for? Not the sound, because Bach left that unspecified. So what?

One point of studying music theory is to give you a way to know what to listen for and what kinds of questions to ask about a piece of music. It is possible to acquire that knowledge without systematic study, but it takes much longer.
#167
15th December 2010
Old 15th December 2010
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
I don't know man, -- it seems to me the easiest thing to do is just learn music. Then you can generate as much as you want, any time, any where..
I second this.

It's not very hard to understand music if you're really interested (which gives you a lot of natural drive). The first step to advancing yourself is to train your ear. If you've learned some theory then you should easily be able to tell apart the chord qualities of major or minor.

Assuming this, what you should work on is to train your ear to listen for the bass lines. Pretty much all modern pop/electronica/jazz/rock music follow the same harmonic structure formula. On every new chord, listen for where the bass is landing or resolving to... that's typically what the new chord is.

Once you figure out the bass, and you can naturally tell if it's major or minor, you're pretty much set, even though it'd help to be able to tell if you have 7ths or 9th, 11ths/13ths (chord extensions) present and whether those 7ths, 9ths (intervals), etc. are major or minor.

To get you started, the most common, popular, timeless chord progressions are:

*(these are the chords represented in scale degrees in a key signature for the bass to be the root of the chords)*

- the 1, 4, 5
- the 2, 5, 1
- the 1, 6, 2, 5 (can also be 6, 2, 5, 1 or 2, 5, 1, 6)
- 1, 6, 4, 5
- minor 1 to major 4 (borrowing chords from parallel keys or essentially "modal mixture")

As you may also notice, not every chord progression has to start with the "1", a lot of the best progressions don't start on the one. A good example is Daft Punk's "Something About Us", which is a 6, 5, 1, 4 progression. More clearly stated, the bass is usually separated from the rest of the voices an octave below and the rest of the voices could and should be played in inversions as this song does well:

6 - Bb Major 7 (Bb, F, A, D) (notice how the 3rd (D) is an octave above)
5 - A Minor 7 (A, E, G, A, C)
1 - D Minor 9 (D, F, A, C, E)
4 - G Major 9 (G, A, B, D)

6 - Bb Major 7 (Bb, D, F, A)
5 - A7 flat 9 (A, E, G, Bb, C#)
1 - D Sus (D, A, C, E, G)
4 - G Minor 7 (G, Bb, D, F)

I know this may be a little bit too much info, but hopefully it helps. Just keep a critical ear open, listen, and most importantly play around!
#168
15th December 2010
Old 15th December 2010
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funk Fiction View Post
I second this.

It's not very hard to understand music if you're really interested (which gives you a lot of natural drive). The first step to advancing yourself is to train your ear. If you've learned some theory then you should easily be able to tell apart the chord qualities of major or minor.

Assuming this, what you should work on is to train your ear to listen for the bass lines. Pretty much all modern pop/electronica/jazz/rock music follow the same harmonic structure formula. On every new chord, listen for where the bass is landing or resolving to... that's typically what the new chord is.

Once you figure out the bass, and you can naturally tell if it's major or minor, you're pretty much set, even though it'd help to be able to tell if you have 7ths or 9th, 11ths/13ths (chord extensions) present and whether those 7ths, 9ths (intervals), etc. are major or minor.

To get you started, the most common, popular, timeless chord progressions are:

*(these are the chords represented in scale degrees in a key signature for the bass to be the root of the chords)*

- the 1, 4, 5
- the 2, 5, 1
- the 1, 6, 2, 5 (can also be 6, 2, 5, 1 or 2, 5, 1, 6)
- 1, 6, 4, 5
- minor 1 to major 4 (borrowing chords from parallel keys or essentially "modal mixture")

As you may also notice, not every chord progression has to start with the "1", a lot of the best progressions don't start on the one. A good example is Daft Punk's "Something About Us", which is a 6, 5, 1, 4 progression. More clearly stated, the bass is usually separated from the rest of the voices an octave below and the rest of the voices could and should be played in inversions as this song does well:

6 - Bb Major 7 (Bb, F, A, D) (notice how the 3rd (D) is an octave above)
5 - A Minor 7 (A, E, G, A, C)
1 - D Minor 9 (D, F, A, C, E)
4 - G Major 9 (G, A, B, D)

6 - Bb Major 7 (Bb, D, F, A)
5 - A7 flat 9 (A, E, G, Bb, C#)
1 - D Sus (D, A, C, E, G)
4 - G Minor 7 (G, Bb, D, F)

I know this may be a little bit too much info, but hopefully it helps. Just keep a critical ear open, listen, and most importantly play around!
Fantastic post!
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#169
15th December 2010
Old 15th December 2010
  #169
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Awesome post FF! Makes me understand the usage of inversion a lil better

What is "minor 1 to major 4 (borrowing chords from parallel keys or essentially "modal mixture")"?

Also, I notice piano players that "trail" notes very soon after/before playing a chord, maybe to show off or make the song sound more interesting, or add more sound to the song/sounds. What is this called? Trips? And how can I do a similar thing? Do I add/get those "extra" trailing (? dunno the correct term) notes/voices from 7ths/9ths/11ths/13ths of the played chord and just place them in different places (inversions), or do I get those notes/voices from the scale/mode the song is on?

Also, for adding a bass line (diff instrument; ie: like a mono synth bass, etc), how does this follow/relate to the chord progressions? Is it alright to just make up my own bass line from the song's scale/mode making anything I want from it, or do I have to follow/relate to the chord progression and it's notes somewhat?
#170
15th December 2010
Old 15th December 2010
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fooddude View Post
Awesome post FF! Makes me understand the usage of inversion a lil better

What is "minor 1 to major 4 (borrowing chords from parallel keys or essentially "modal mixture")"?

Also, I notice piano players that "trail" notes very soon after/before playing a chord, maybe to show off or make the song sound more interesting, or add more sound to the song/sounds. What is this called? Trips? And how can I do a similar thing? Do I add/get those "extra" trailing (? dunno the correct term) notes/voices from 7ths/9ths/11ths/13ths of the played chord and just place them in different places (inversions), or do I get those notes/voices from the scale/mode the song is on?

Also, for adding a bass line (diff instrument; ie: like a mono synth bass, etc), how does this follow/relate to the chord progressions? Is it alright to just make up my own bass line from the song's scale/mode making anything I want from it, or do I have to follow/relate to the chord progression and it's notes somewhat?
Thanks fooddude and johnnyp!

The minor 1 to major 4 thing. Here is an example: A minor to D Major. A being the 1 and and D being the 4th scale degree. A minor is all white (natural keys), whereas the D Major chord involves an F# (if it stuck to A minor, we'd play an F natural and get a D Minor chord as a result). F is the 6th scale degree in A minor, and doing this is called a "raised 6th" or a "major 6th". Since there is no D Major chord in A minor, but there is a D Major chord in A Major, this is naturally called a "borrowed chord" because it's literally borrowing a chord from the parallel major (A major).

The term modal mixture is pretty much the same thing and it comes from the fact that major and minor are 2 of 7 different MODES of the same scale or shape. You have a set of 7 notes, depending on which one of those notes you treat as the 1, or the tonic, or the home key, you get one of 7 different possible modes. The 7 modes are: major (ionian), dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, minor (aeolian), and locrian.

And since there are 12 tones in an octave, you have 12 different sets of these same 7 modes. I can get more into it and it isn't as complicated as I might be making it. It's so much easier to teach this stuff in person and next to a keyboard, haha! But yeah you're mixing the modes of minor and major. You could also just say that chord progression of the minor 1 to major 4 (a minor to d major) is all in the mode of A Dorian. Dorian is the same thing as minor except the 6th degree is raised a half step into a major 6th. See? It's like tonal centers and scales are like a crystal stone with many different angles that you can look at all of the same thing. Learning your modes will definitely help you increase your understanding.

That "trailing" thing you're talking about (good analogy) is actually called a "suspension". It's essentially one of the tones out of a harmony that is a step above or below the resolved or appropriate tone. An example:

C Major is simply C, E, and G
If you play C Major like this: C, F, G... that "F" is a suspension and wants to resolve down to E. So that F "trails" or is "suspended" and goes to E for a satisfactory tonal harmonic resolution. One more example that involves a 9th:

A Minor is simply A, C, and E
If you play A minor with a B on top of the E, that would be a "9th" and a suspension. A through G are scale degrees 1 - 7 and reaching A again would be the "8th" or more appropriately called the "octave" (which is the same thing as the 1 again). In extended harmony (tones past the octave) you actually name the scale degrees in respect to being PAST the octave, so even though B is the 2 or the "2nd", we call it the "9th" if it's used in context of being past the octave. Now a very common suspension is a 9-8 suspension (the last one being a 4-3 suspension).

So if you play A, C, E, B, then resolve the B down to A. You get that 9-8 suspension (which sounds beautiful, all suspensions do [= ).

It would REALLY help to read some and practice jazz harmony as it all becomes a lot more clear. It's an intermediate level (BUT not advanced!), which requires you to know your modes, chord qualities, intervals, etc. Jazz really teaches you about harmony.

As for bass lines, once you have your chord progression set up, you just have to make sure your bass is landing on the ROOT of the chords whenever you're making the chord change or at least very soon after the chord change (if you wanna say "suspend" the bass for a sec and resolve it to the "root"). Otherwise, make it groove and move around either within the scale of the chord, or a neat trick is to chromatically approach the next chord by a couple half steps. Again you have an A minor chord, your bass can do groove for a couple beats around A and then do E, Eb, D (or C, C#, D) in rhythm approaching the D Major chord.

There's a lot to talk about and and it's making me think I should probably make video examples of this stuff. I hope I'm being clear for the most part!!
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#171
15th December 2010
Old 15th December 2010
  #171
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Cool, I'll try out the 9-8, 4-3..I kinda figured and "hear" it has something to do with the scale (well, it really has to for no dissonance I believe). I love the sound of darker more rhythmic "suspensions", staccato stuff too; I notice some suspensions sound too happy and cheesy... some of my friends (top 40 slow jam artists) do this, and i hate the sound...but I hear jazz radio, latin/bossa or lots of house records, more independent music etc. that use nicer sounding "suspensions", and I love the sound.

Right now, I am just practicing all the modes/scales into my own interval calculation that I can relate to any root key (ie: Dorian = R2122212). I like using 1's and 2's instead of H and W as it is easier for me to remember. Some past piano teachers i had always did it the H W way and it just got me more confused as I had to "think" of the word AND interval in my head instead of just the number.

Doing the same for chords... R + 3 + 4 = major, or R + 4 + 3 for minor... or basically remember the major and just flatten the 3 6 7. I think it is basically intervals that is always 3 followed by 4 (half steps) after the root, and vice versa (ie: 4, then 3, the 4, repeat, repeat)..Correct??? I tried it this way and looked at various chord voicings and it seems to always be correct... so if I want a 9th, 11th, 13th, etc.... I just count 3's and 4's over the root or the last voicings of the chord... this is correct right? ie: I have a minor = R+3+4, then if I wanted the rest for a 13th, I just add +3+4+3+4 over my original triad chord (total = R+3+4 +3+4+3+4).

Also: what do you mean "groove around the scale of the chord" (being currently played?)?? Someone told me that for writing bass in a song, you must basically stick with the SONG's root scale's notes, and not the scale of the chord being played at that moment. Is this correct?

ie:

1. If a song is in Amin, I would only write bass lines that consisted of notes in the Amin scale. Is this correct?

2. Or, is the correct way, to play the particular scale of the current chord being played in the song (which is derived from the chord progression from the song's root scale).. ie: if the song is in Amin, and im at the II progression, do I stick with notes in the B scale (of that II chord currently being played), or do I stick with the song's scale of Amin scale?

Is 1 or 2 correct?
#172
18th December 2010
Old 18th December 2010
  #172
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Beermaster's Avatar
 

Let's also not forget the most powerful chord in the universe ... the Dominant 7th chord.

Need some more interest in your song or tune, getting a bit bored with the same set of chords based on the home tonic key ? .... well just change the home tonic key to from a simple major or minor chord to a dominant 7th ... off you go in a new direction. It doesn't have to be the tonic key it can be any chord in the sequence. Changing it into a dominant 7th give you a doorway to a new tonal centre

Beer.
ark
#173
18th December 2010
Old 18th December 2010
  #173
ark
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Personally, I think diminished 7ths are more powerful.

And let us not forget the following nifty chord substitution: When the melody note is the 3rd of your chord, you can change a major chord to a minor and move the root up a semitone, or change a minor chord to a major and move the root down a semitone.

In other words: Suppose you have a C major chord -- C-E-G -- and you have a melody note of E. Then you can change that C major chord to a C# minor chord -- C#-E-G# -- and still have a workable harmony.

The musical effect is quite striking--play it yourself and listen. As a practical example, Steely Dan uses it in the chorus of Janie Runaway.
#174
18th December 2010
Old 18th December 2010
  #174
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Dominant 7 chord, is just a Major 7 chord with a flattened 7th correct?

And a diminished 7 chord, is a Minor 7 chord with a flattened 5th & 7th correct?
ark
#175
18th December 2010
Old 18th December 2010
  #175
ark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fooddude View Post
Dominant 7 chord, is just a Major 7 chord with a flattened 7th correct?

And a diminished 7 chord, is a Minor 7 chord with a flattened 5th & 7th correct?
Yes.

Diminished 7th chords are particularly interesting, however, because they contain only minor thirds. So any of the four notes of the chord can serve as the root without changing the essential nature of the chord. For example, the C dim7 and Eb dim7 chord contain the same notes.

This overlap, in turn, makes it easy to use dim7 chords to send the harmony in surprising dimensions.

There is one other chord with the same property, namely the augmented chord. Rather than having four notes each a minor third from its neighbor, it has three notes, each a major third from its neighbor.
#176
18th December 2010
Old 18th December 2010
  #176
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Ah, yes...thanks.

How do you extend diminished & augmented "past" just a 7 chord, and into 9th, 11th and 13th chords? Just add more 3 more per extension (for dim) and add 4 more per extension (for aug)?

ie:

dim = R + 3 + 3
...do I just add +3 every time I wanna add an extension:

ie: 7th dim = R+3+3+3, and 9th dim = R+3+3+3+3 ...and so on for 11th and 13th, etc.

aug = R + 4 + 4

ie: 7th aug = R+4+4+4, and 9th aug = R+4+4+4+4 ...and so on for 11th and 13th, etc.

...this is correct yes?


Also, how do augmented and diminished chords relate to scales? In other words, which scales/modes are to be used with dim & aug chords?
#177
21st December 2010
Old 21st December 2010
  #177
3 + infractions, forum membership suspended.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fooddude View Post
Ah, yes...thanks.

How do you extend diminished & augmented "past" just a 7 chord, and into 9th, 11th and 13th chords? Just add more 3 more per extension (for dim) and add 4 more per extension (for aug)?

ie:

dim = R + 3 + 3
...do I just add +3 every time I wanna add an extension:

ie: 7th dim = R+3+3+3, and 9th dim = R+3+3+3+3 ...and so on for 11th and 13th, etc.

aug = R + 4 + 4

ie: 7th aug = R+4+4+4, and 9th aug = R+4+4+4+4 ...and so on for 11th and 13th, etc.

...this is correct yes?


Also, how do augmented and diminished chords relate to scales? In other words, which scales/modes are to be used with dim & aug chords?
lol not quite. You can't extend a diminished 7th and 7ths in a augmented tried don't exist.

You can't keep adding on because a 4 minor 3rds make an octave and 3 major 3rds make an octave. You would just be back where you started.

1 3b 5b 6(7bb) 1
1 4 5# 1

Sort of funny as all you had to do was test your system and you would realize you can't just keep adding major or minor 3rds as you end up at the octave.

Enharmonically speaking and ignoring the root , that is why there only exists 4 augmented triads and 3 diminished 7 triads.

As far as scales for augmented, whole tone scale
for dimished, octotonic is the one you are after.
#178
21st December 2010
Old 21st December 2010
  #178
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Dysanfel's Avatar
Can we talk more about Chord Progression Generators and a bit less cock waving over who knows/can explain the most music theory?
Quote
1
#179
21st December 2010
Old 21st December 2010
  #179
3 + infractions, forum membership suspended.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysanfel View Post
Can we talk more about Chord Progression Generators and a bit less cock waving over who knows/can explain the most music theory?
Theory is merely a framework for chord succession. it is really a matter of percentage. ii usually goes to V but that is merely a statistic just like all chord movements. Some are more common, some less. I'm not sure what your asking for. The combinations and permutations mixing in and out of key areas are rather large. It isn't cock waving, it is the ability to put words to the framework so that it makes conceptualizing the framework easier. And don't forget that different music have different frameworks within which they tend to move so therefore, to talk about theory is to talk about a myriad of frameworks that tend to illustrate the more common succession of chords.

Music theory , despite hating the term is sort of a misnomer. It isn't a theory. It is a system of representation. I do happen to know pretty much everything there is to know about theory. I've studied enough of it, every style and when I come back to the concept, the Shenkerian prescriptive approach is not only limiting but rather ridiculous. To have a rule where things can go can be proven false by just playing a chord that isn't prescribed.

What bothers me is that people are looking for shortcuts. There are none. You can learn it half assed which will get you by in recent pop , EDM and rap but good luck doing anything jazz or classical related.

So I suppose my answer to your chord progression generator is to either learn it or keep fumbling around with some software that tells you what music to make. It is rather pathetic how unskilled musicians seem to be these days.
#180
21st December 2010
Old 21st December 2010
  #180
Lives for gear
 

I find that one needs to at least learn the basics; like what I am trying to do now. Once you have some basics down, then practice. Then try out every chord to make a prog that sounds nice to you. I tried some popular pop and also gospel progs of course, and I change it up many times because it sounds better to my ear. If I just followed a straight chord prog from someone or a generator, it sometimes just doesnt fit the song, so I change it up a little to make it sound better and fit in the song better. I am VERY new at it, maybe a months or 2 in learning, but I am having fun learning more and more everyday and playing. I do not mind learning for the rest of my life, honestly. Like anything creative "It takes a few minutes to learn the basics, and a lifetime to master" ..and I do not mind that at all. I am in love learning theory now and look forward to it everyday.
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