Test Compressors on Drums

[OB.one]

Hello everybody,

If you're interested i've just recorded an acoustic drum loop 100 BPM first dry then through 8 compressors who are :

UAD EX-1, UAD Fairchild, Logic 8 Compressor Class A_R, Sonalksis SV 315 Mk 2, UAD LA3A, UAD 1176 SE, Free airwindows called "Pressure", and UAD Neve 88 RS.

I've tried to limit 3 dbs with a ratio of 3 when i could dial on the interfaces ... And made a rather quick attack and release so your hear the room sound.

All the files have been normalised so they peak at 0 dB.

If you want to play here's the link to download the 9 files in 24 Bits :

YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement

I will give the results in a few days. (if i have players ...)

Enjoy !

Best Regards from Paris

Olivier aka OB.one
MySpace.com - OB.one French Composer - Paris - Electronica / Classical / Jazz - www.myspace.com/obonemusic

[chrisj]

Sounds interesting! I can't 'enter' because I obviously could pick out at least ONE of the examples, having made it

I also do a slightly different vari-mu called VariMu that I actually like better, but I know some people actually prefer Pressure even though it's a freebie...

Good luck with the shootout and thanks for giving my stuff a shot!

[alexp]

Originally Posted by chrisj

Sounds interesting! I can't 'enter' because I obviously could pick out at least ONE of the examples, having made it

I also do a slightly different vari-mu called VariMu that I actually like better, but I know some people actually prefer Pressure even though it's a freebie...

Good luck with the shootout and thanks for giving my stuff a shot!

Ew plugins.......

[OB.one]

Thanx Chris for your message AND support !
At the moment i have unfortunately any players for this test ...
Idem on uaudio forum ...
Perhaps i should create other profile accounts on gearslutz by myself and create a false debate ? LOL
I thought this test was a little interesting in the way that some of these compressors can render rather close results sonically in comparison while some others are really different but let's wait ...

[supersuper]

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

This reminds me of that ad you see in the banners occasionally for Manley that shows a picture of a tube and says 'This is a plugin!' That's practically my mantra anytime I see somebody using software effects.

Why divine! I must say i love your new photo! So what are you covered in? Bulllshit or Dipshit? I mean come on half the stuff you use is digital right! you have to stop attacking computers just because you haven't been able to get satisfactory results yet. A lot of us and a lot of the kids on youtube are just fine with software, and you know what they are the wave of the future mon aime.

[revstate]

Originally Posted by OB.one

Hello everybody,

If you're interested i've just recorded an acoustic drum loop 100 BPM first dry then through 8 compressors who are :

UAD EX-1, UAD Fairchild, Logic 8 Compressor Class A_R, Sonalksis SV 315 Mk 2, UAD LA3A, UAD 1176 SE, Free airwindows called "Pressure", and UAD Neve 88 RS.

I've tried to limit 3 dbs with a ratio of 3 when i could dial on the interfaces ... And made a rather quick attack and release so your hear the room sound.

All the files have been normalised so they peak at 0 dB.

If you want to play here's the link to download the 9 files in 24 Bits :

YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement

I will give the results in a few days. (if i have players ...)

Enjoy !

Best Regards from Paris

Olivier aka OB.one
MySpace.com - OB.one French Composer - Paris - Electronica / Classical / Jazz - www.myspace.com/obonemusic

although they all sound good, i liked 3 and 5 the best, but that's because i liked it a bit more bright and almost pumping. i use the uad plugs, the logic 8 compressor and i have used the sonalksis. all of these plugs give excellent results. people on the forums, minus a few "golden eared" people, can't tell the difference most of the time. every time there is an a/b between hardware and software compression, no one can tell the difference. besides that, for the price, you get a billion times the compressor as a plugin vs. a piece of hardware that costs the same price. the only thing that sounds better than the uad la2a (my favorite compressor so far) plugin is the real la2a, and i can use as many instances as my processor, the uad-1 and freezing tracks can allow. my last song i was working on had 7 la2a, 4 1176se, and like 5 or 6 1073 instances. can you imagine how much that would cost in stereo, in hardware!!!?!?!

ramble

rant

ramble

so, in the end, yes good hardware sounds a bit better than good software dynamics processors. but the cost and the ability for full recall with software outweighs the benefits of the hardware

[OB.one]

First thanx a lot for the first replies.

For info the list of the plugins used is of course not in the order ...

And YES i admit the result is that am hearing very similar results sonically and at the same time a rather good sound for most of them ... after if someone want to post the dry file with some hardware compressors added on it for a comparison it would be also interesting.

Honestly i think over the years the plug really improved sonically, and Logic 8 compressor is not the bad boy today, the platinum model is the worst but the others models are rather good .

In this world of plugins i've noticed two of them add a very personal and different sound than the others ...

Am still waiting more people and will give the results.

And as i said why not posting examples with hardware ? ... I don't have these machines, and Fairchild for example is so rare ...

Best Regards from Paris

Olivier aka OB.one
MySpace.com - OB.one French Composer - Paris - Electronica / Classical / Jazz - www.myspace.com/obonemusic

[revstate]

Originally Posted by OB.one

First thanx a lot for the first replies.

For info the list of the plugins used is of course not in the order ...

And YES i admit the result is that am hearing very similar results sonically and at the same time a rather good sound for most of them ... after if someone want to post the dry file with some hardware compressors added on it for a comparison it would be also interesting.

Honestly i think over the years the plug really improved sonically, and Logic 8 compressor is not the bad boy today, the platinum model is the worst but the others models are rather good .

In this world of plugins i've noticed two of them add a very personal and different sound than the others ...

Am still waiting more people and will give the results.

And as i said why not posting examples with hardware ? ... I don't have these machines, and Fairchild for example is so rare ...

Best Regards from Paris

Olivier aka OB.one
MySpace.com - OB.one French Composer - Paris - Electronica / Classical / Jazz - www.myspace.com/obonemusic

i just downloaded pressure, and even that was pretty good sounding... especially for a freebie

[jdtrbn]

I liked 5 the most. 1 and 4 were also nice.

Maybe one of these is Sonalksis?

[chrisso]

I have hardware compressors and don't care much for plug-ins.
But a work partner, who is a very good engineer, will slap a plug-in compressor on my drums sometimes. It does the job very well, doesn't sound like shit, nor signal the end of the quality music industry. It's just a tool.
If you didn't know what it was (a plug-in) you would just hear compressed drums.
I like to twiddle real knobs myself, but I reject the simplistic point of view that all hardware is better sounding than all software.
Half of the hardware is just a metal box with a tiny computer and software installed anyway. What's the difference?

[OB.one]

JDTRBN thanx for playing the game !

Divine : put my dry loop through your hardware compressors and let's make the comparison, ears better than long debates !

Chris thanx for your comments, i completely agree with you and make the same if you have little time : post me files with hardware compressors on my dry file.

And am waiting anybody here gives me the 8 compressors used according to my 8 files ...

Best Regards

Olivier aka OB.one

[MonoBrow]

People just love to be incredible anal about hardware vs software.Cracks me up everytime.Nice variation on the test btw.
Oh and divine...do you have more comps than just the tubeComposer?

[revstate]

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

Sorry kid, but I've got better things to do with my gear when I'm away from work. I'd much rather make music.

that's because you don't have any good compressors

please, prove the world wrong with your behringer is better than ssl, neve, api, and ua

i don't care if its behringer or neve, the brand name doesn't matter, only the sound does

and cheap ass behringer and alesis compressors sound like poop

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

I never said Behringer was better than everything else. I went all Behringer to prove that in the end it doesn't really matter what you use so long as you use it right. With software though, it just doesn't cut it.

Firstly, you contradict yourself.
Secondly, you'd be better to say you don't like software rather than the all conquering statement 'it just doesn't cut it'.

Your mixing up personal taste with black and white judgments, then chastising forum members for having different taste or methods from you. tutt

From the Behringer outboard I've owned, I can think of quite a few software products that would outperform it sonically.
I'd rather use an original SSL compressor than a plug-in emulation, but my engineer friend would probably load up that SSL emulation and get a good sound out of it anyway (whether it sounded like an SSL or not).

[SighBorg]

[revstate]

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

I never said Behringer was better than everything else. I went all Behringer to prove that in the end it doesn't really matter what you use so long as you use it right. With software though, it just doesn't cut it.

dude, null....

you really should try out the uad plugs

i know you will change your tune about plugins if you play with the uad plugins for a few days. the uad plugins are sooooo amazing. my mixing options have broadened so much from the use of uad plugins. my mixes sound so good now, that i am actually going back through the material for the almost complete new revstate album and re-EQing and compressing every single track in my multitracks. i like them so much that we just bought a second uad-1 today, and we have only had the first one for a little over a month.

seriously, with 10 to 30 stereo channels and around 10 or so aux sends and busses, how can anyone afford to not use a daw and good plugins. the only way i would do it differently is if i could actually afford a large api, neve or ssl console with racks and racks of compressors from universal audio and the previously mentioned brands.

really, this is coming from someone who uses analog synths almost exclusively. please just give it a chance. uad plugs with logic have changed my entire workflow.

[Chaellus]

i know plugins are no ware on par to hardware except in cases of waves studio bundle or the triton plugs coming very close....but behringer? even digital comps sound better than that...nice one

[revstate]

Originally Posted by Chaellus

i know plugins are no ware on par to hardware except in cases of waves studio bundle or the triton plugs coming very close....but behringer? even digital comps sound better than that...nice one

i like the uad better than the waves standard plugs, but... i have not tried the api/ssl bundles yet. those bundles may be good. hmm... i wonder if you can demo the api/ssl bundles?

[OB.one]

... and that probably explains on the 8 files to discover , 5 are UAD's ...

My purpose on this test is just about "opening the ears" and debate about sounds not about sterile conversation Hardware VS Plugins, i don't mind at all !
Am astonished on some people here losing their time and energy talking about the fact they hate plugins, posted 7 times about this in a topic place they shouldn't even appear according to their position on sound ...

Otherwise am happy that some of people here are more interested in the "sound" than those stupid debates.

Best Regards


Olivier aka OB.one

[chrisj]

HEH. What a trainwreck...

Hey listen- I BUILD hardware. I think it's absolutely fine to trash crappy plugins. Crappy plugins are why I _started_ Airwindows as a plugin-monger... I had to make pretty much everything from scratch because no matter how simple it was, I couldn't get a plugin to really do the job. To a point I _agree_ with you basher skeptic heckler people.

BUT.

There's usually a couple different ways you can work around the problems.

And the problems are inevitably fussy digital-theory stuff that you wouldn't know about unless you had some background in high end digital- knowing about analog will NOT help, it'll just train you to hear what's wrong and not know what to do about it.

Let's take a simple chorus. Take a delay tap, vary the delay, grab the sample corresponding to the current delay length and you have your chorus and pitch shifted voice, right? No, not really, because you're quantizing to the nearest sample and in analog you automatically have an INTERPOLATED delay position for anything like that- or a flange, or a tape flange. The granularity of typical digital is just not enough to do it. So you have to interpolate, and I swear most effects of this type don't- and you can do linear interpolation, but even that isn't ideal, so you might work up something that approximates the kind of high-CPU sinc interpolation you might see in a high quality SRC...

There's two levels, one is the ability to not lose any tone, and the other level is applying 'analog colorations'. You can get digital to not lose any tone with LOTS of processing, oversampling etc or you can just code stuff in an inspired way which I try to do- as far as applying analog colorations, I can tell you that sells very well but trying to really reproduce serious analog phenomena- say a tape machine- is like trying to make a room reverb out of five delay taps...

But at the same time there are things you can do with five delay taps you CANNOT do with a room ambience.

Ever heard granular synthesis? Maybe that's not your style, but good luck doing that in analog!

Please, lay off the general condemnation of plugins. Condemn specific plugins. There's people out there doing amazing stuff- Duende, Virsyn, AudioEase- there's software that's tied to hardware that kills everything you could get in analog, such as Weiss.

Be fair, or you'll only come off as so biased you can't see the world right in front of you.

Personally, I always recommend things like running test tones through plugins- just a simple volume-ramping sine wave at around 100 hz, run through different plugins, will blatantly expose quite a few plugins that have howling, gross artifacts in the digital domain- including some very popular ones- caveat emptor. It is TRUE that some very well thought of plugins have gross digital artifacts. But that doesn't mean all software automatically has that, though I can see why people get frustrated and discouraged.

Be fair.

[JOliver]

some people may not be able to tell the difference between hardware and software on a single compressed signal but show me a mix done by a great engineer that has been done using discrete hardware comps and their plugin counterparts... the plugin version wont even sound 1/5th as good. Just running through some of these hardware boxes gives them a smoothness and seperation that cannot be achieved ITB.

[Barbary Ape]

I think just use what works for you and with what you have. Interesting article though on this months UAD webzine. When they were interviewing the owner of the Oasis Mastering Studio specifically this quote which I think is contentious to all. You can read the entire article in link.

"Are they replacing outboard gear?"
"I believe your current plug-ins are, in most cases, cleaner and more dependable then their hardware counterparts. I can master entirely in the digital domain without suffering any collapse of the stereo image and at the same time no sacrifice to the depth of a mix. We basically receive stereo file mixes. So I find it more pleasing to stay entirely in the digital domain, because the plug-ins are so good, and I see no reason to reconvert--to take the digital music, come back out analog, hit analog gear, and then reconvert back through the A to D process. I hear a lot of ring, I hear a lot of induced distortion, sacrifice of stereo image and dynamics and such, it just doesn't make a lot of sense. The plug-ins are so good today that I feel I cut louder, cleaner, better. Better mastering jobs are done entirely in the box, when used properly. With all this digital stuff being said, well maintained analog hardware and good analog consoles, Neves, SSLs and the like, will always be a good choice for the initial tracking and mixing."
Universal Audio

[chrisj]

WHICH plugin counterparts? That's exactly what I'm saying. Are we talking default Pro Tools, or Waves, or UAD, or Duende, or what?

I'm way less impressed with most everything that's designed to be mimicking physical gear. To add in loads of colorations is not the way. When I did (and revised) Logical, I was referencing recordings of SSL hardware that I found right here on Gearslutz, but nobody in software who was trying to clone that got it exactly right. Waves was too crunchy, Duende is too damn sensitive and ethereal, and I think mine was too rowdy.

A lot of listeners wouldn't be able to ABX any of them apart, though... and there's a hardware SSL knockoff also from that shootout, and it sounded just as different as any of the plugins did.

It's a little bit crazy to say a mix with plugins is 'a fifth' as powerful as a hardware mix unless the plugins are really terrible and there's a lot of them- then, that would be true. Even then, is the person with plugins steering the mix to places you could NOT go with hardware as it currently stands?

Hell, man, one of my most basic freebie plugins is 'Density', in which you can use either a sine or cosine function to SMOOTHLY bend the whole transfer function of the track. It's like a less grainy version of Cyanide (which uses lookup tables). Doing this moves the track forward or backward in space, can bring it up front or sit it back out of the way with NO eq or any other processing needed. The coloration involved is absolutely nil- it's the most fundamental operation you could have, you can go as subtle as you like, right down to zero which is exactly equivalent to straight-wire bypass. This is a mastering grade freebie. There are mastering grade plugins.

How are you going to do a continuously variable, softer-than-tube-saturation overdrive effect- or the inverse of it, to lean stuff out- in hardware? By splitting stuff into two busses? How much of that can you actually do before phase issues and bus noise turn your experiment into a tragic faux pas?

[chrisj]

I did mention mastering- the quote is unsurprising- for instance, ALL mastering grade dither and SRC is in software. You CAN go out to analog and resample- but by now you really don't have to. I mentioned Weiss. The 'plugins' (and dedicated box software) are out there.

You've got to start by drawing the distinction between the Behringers and the Neves of the software world. Anybody who's going to continue by saying that a Behringer hardware box will beat Weiss software sonically doesn't deserve to be listened to... maybe people are calling out specific plugin manufacturers, such as Waves or UAD, and assuming that all plugins are always like that?

Just because Waves L2 has been a huge fad for years doesn't mean it's state-of-the-plugin, and I'm not aware of any other Waves or UAD stuff with substantial buzz in mastering. It's going to be more Weiss, you'll see Sony Oxford, you'll see a lot of stuff that makes no attempt whatsoever to emulate analog boxes. There's amazing analog boxes out there in mastering like the grand old Manley Massive Passive, but bear in mind that you'd be crazy to use that on everything, it's just too colored.

Digital can be very, very good at being uncolored. If you're mastering the last thing you want to do is run through effectively another mix buss. If you're MIXING, maybe the last thing you want to do is run through a mastering-style buss...

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by JOliver

show me a mix done by a great engineer that has been done using discrete hardware comps and their plugin counterparts... the plugin version wont even sound 1/5th as good.

BS.
Most of us have no idea what gear most of the top mix engineers are using on any given song these days. How would anyone compare two mixes by different artists and say one sounded better purely because of the compression?
Quite a few records are mixed in the box these days too.
I'm far from saying plug-ins are best. I'm just saying they are another tool in the kitbag.
I don't use plug-ins much, but to say they are all inferior seems crazy to me.

[chrisso]

Of course, you don't have to use compressors anyway.
I don't use them much.
Maybe on a particular drum - not often when you use samples rather than the real thing. Sometimes on bass.
Most often over the entire mix........and very lightly.

[allcentury]

2 & 3 really hitting harder, my guess is the neve & 1176?

[OB.one]

... very interesting allcentury ! ... I will post the result this week-end ...
I can't tell more now ...

[danielbest]

and the answers??

[AgentSanchez]

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

The metal box was made for music. The computer was made as a giant calculator. Simplistic or not, there is a difference. Even using all of this Behringer gear there's a noticeable difference between those and their software equivalents. The only thing as of yet that I've found that software does better is bit crushing, and that's only when going for the really low bit rates. Otherwise, an older sampler does those sounds better.

Thanks for setting the record straight, for all time.