drum machines vs plugs and softsynths

[drewgrass]

hello to all. i recently bought my first good analog synth a dsi evolver and the difference between it and the softsynths i have are very noticable. it has alot more depth thickness etc. it almost eats the mix. so the question i have is, are drum machine samplers etc like mpc's,elektrons jomox etc. going to sound that much better than stylus or reason for beats. thanks to all

[inthere]

Yes.

[Absent1]

The PEK can really swallow a mix up IMO but I love it none the less.

I use a EMU prot 2000 for most of my drums and usually used Stylus for cymbals. But I recently got a Machinedrum and man that thing blows Stylus out of the water.

Over the years I went from all hardware ( well there use to be no choice) to selling most of my treasured synths for a trimmed down software setup and now I am back to all hardware besides mixing is still in the box.

Stylus was really the last softsynth I was using besides Logics EXS 24 and I am not missing the computer synths one bit.

The downside is all the shit you have to buy to record everything.....

[DivineChemical]

Hardware samplers are also very much more noticeable in difference than their software counterparts. Go to Emu samplers if you're looking for synth/orchestra/instrumental samples as the converters on that add a somewhat analog flavor to them and really stand out because of it. Akai's are known for a more punchy sound that's better suited for drums.

[sctt_stone]

Jomox rocks!

[tstu102]

the answer to questions like these is almost always yes, but the more important question is can YOU tell the difference? If you can tell the difference and it means something to your music, than go for it, by all means.

[pyvnd]

One thing to keep in mind is that it is no longer necessarily about what sounds good, but also how intricate you can program things. A lot of these softsynths for drums have raised the bar because they can sound so close to real drummers. That is something that most hardware probably can't give you. This is why the Yamaha A5000 sampler is still a viable piece of equipment because it features to introduce variations on the same sound, change filtering a bit, etc. I have not used the machinedrum but I reckon that has something like this also. Most of the older drum machines probably don't unless you've got something like a R-70. With software it seems they have so much more room to add things like this these days.

[DivineChemical]

Most of the samplers I've used have ways to vary the sound like a real drummer mainly in the method of sample&hold lfo's at note on for pitch and filter as well as velocity tracking. As for getting the timing inaccuracy of a real drummer, that's just a matter of scooting the notes around in your sequencer.

[tstu102]

Originally Posted by pyvnd

A lot of these softsynths for drums have raised the bar because they can sound so close to real drummers. That is something that most hardware probably can't give you.

I have to respectfully, but completely, disagree with this. I think things like "funky drum" quantize templates, etc. are garbage. When has anyone ever used a groove template? Also, when did it become "not about what sounds best"? personally I'm willing to sacrifice almost anything for sound (probably to a stupid degree)....

I guess I have my own ways, but when I want real drummer-sound, I either record with a set or use a live break/loop, and don't quantize, or only quantize certain notes. When I want programmed drum sounds, I program my drum sounds and personally I like the way hardware samplers and analog drum machines sound much more.

just sayin...

[DocT]

Originally Posted by inthere

Yes.

No.

[Barbary Ape]

Maybe it's just me but isn't this kind of pointless to compare about.
Yes, hardware drum machines sound better with their built in sounds right off the box but every single analog drum machine out there has already been sampled to death. You can't honestly say that a real TR909 sounds better than a software like Reason using Goldbaby samples.

It's just a matter of preference now, the quality of sounds has been leveled with all the sample libraries that are available to us out there not to mention all the transient plugins that can mangle these things. It's just a matter of finding what works for you.

[FBM]

YES! When you use a good pre-amp and A/D converter the Machine Drum and MBase01 I have sound realy good, but software when used in a proper way can sound as good! I use Battery for my own samples and RMX for my own rexfiles so I know what is done with them and it's all in my hands. Dvid

[Reptil]

yes - thicker fatter especially with some outboard
no - softsynths have their own thing going - they're different

you can combine the two. many outboard synths have an input.

Reason 4 sounds really good, but it has a "sound". (everything made in reason sounds a bit like reason) It might be barely noticable, but when you hear 10 reason songs, and then one made on a desk, using synths you'll know what I'm trying to say.

[plaid_emu]

Originally Posted by drewgrass

hello to all. i recently bought my first good analog synth a dsi evolver and the difference between it and the softsynths i have are very noticable. it has alot more depth thickness etc. it almost eats the mix. so the question i have is, are drum machine samplers etc like mpc's,elektrons jomox etc. going to sound that much better than stylus or reason for beats. thanks to all

Here's a simple solution without buying a drum machine:

Use the audio inputs of the Evolver to process your software drums. I use my Evolver more for processing drum loops than I do as a synth. It's truly fantastic for this. The real Curtis filter can add some great subtle enhancements or use a bit of it's distortion/hack for grit.

You can also mangle your beats to shreds until they're bizarre and bubbly or harsh and terrifying. If you don't already own the Evolver software editor by SoundTower I'd suggest you check it out. Use the program genetics feature to come up with an infinite number of randomized signal processing presets.

I also use an MPC. It's awesome to process drums from Reaktor and Stylus with the Evolver, chop up your loops with Recycle, then dump it back to the MPC for sequencing your new drum hits.

[pyvnd]

Originally Posted by tstu102

I have to respectfully, but completely, disagree with this. I think things like "funky drum" quantize templates, etc. are garbage. When has anyone ever used a groove template? Also, when did it become "not about what sounds best"? personally I'm willing to sacrifice almost anything for sound (probably to a stupid degree)....

I guess I have my own ways, but when I want real drummer-sound, I either record with a set or use a live break/loop, and don't quantize, or only quantize certain notes. When I want programmed drum sounds, I program my drum sounds and personally I like the way hardware samplers and analog drum machines sound much more.

just sayin...

Just because you don't use these features, it doesn't mean those features do not exist. So really, you're not disagreeing at all with what I said.

[Lessli]

Err...don't know about other drum machines. But I haven't been able to reproduce my jomox 999's sounds with ANY software or even digital hardware yet...of course, unless I sample it

Between digital stuff (i.e. samples or VAs), I guess the difference isn't quite as obvious. But with analog stuff it's like day and night. Not necessarily that any one is superior, ut the difference is there.

[Konketsu]

Originally Posted by Barbary Ape

Maybe it's just me but isn't this kind of pointless to compare about.
Yes, hardware drum machines sound better with their built in sounds right off the box but every single analog drum machine out there has already been sampled to death. You can't honestly say that a real TR909 sounds better than a software like Reason using Goldbaby samples.

It's just a matter of preference now, the quality of sounds has been leveled with all the sample libraries that are available to us out there not to mention all the transient plugins that can mangle these things. It's just a matter of finding what works for you.

Perhaps there is little difference within the context of a finished, mastered track that is being played back from an iPod.

On stage and being played back over a big soundsystem, TR909 > Reason or any softsynth for that matter.

Case in point: for the Cobblestone Jazz show that happened here a few months back, Matt Jonson's rider stipulated a TR909 and the promoters had to scramble to find one. There has to be a reason for that. Add Jeff Mills, Richie Hawtin, Underworld and countless other A-list performers and that's a pretty convincing argument that in a live setting there is no substitute.

[tstu102]

EXACTLY--you can really hear the huge difference with this stuff when it comes to a huge sound system. It's like DJ's that spin mp3's--they sound ok at a house party, but the moment you bring it to the club, it sounds like shit.
Especially with analog vs. digital--I mean, I've triggered sounds back to back from acoustic drums with a top of the line V drum set and then with an old simmons brain, and the kick drum of the simmons is soo much fatter, warmer and better in the mix coming through my pa.

[olafmol]

Originally Posted by tstu102

EXACTLY--you can really hear the huge difference with this stuff when it comes to a huge sound system. It's like DJ's that spin mp3's--they sound ok at a house party, but the moment you bring it to the club, it sounds like shit.

what kind of effect would this be? Most club PA's are mono, and rather non-hifi sounding too...but still i hear the effect you mention above...anyone any idea why?

Olaf

[out-of-bed]

I have Battery 3 and an Emu SP1200. I don't make beats with the Battery, though. I sample the Battery drum sounds into the SP, program a beat with the SP and record it back into the computer. All this trouble because of the very noticeable improvement in the sound (i.e. warmer and much punchier).

I would not get a hardware drum machine - they do sound better than software but are not very versatile. Instead, I'd get a punchy vintage sampler (Akai MPC 60 or 3000, S900, S950, S1000, S2800, S3000 or Emu SP12, SP1200, Emax, Emulator) which you can use with an endless library of drum (or whatever) sounds.

But this is just MHO. Some prefer the crispy and clean sound of software.

[crufty]

i guess it really comes down to:
sample vs algorithmic

and how much tweaking you are going to do vs how busy the mix is.

a sample tweaked will never sound like its analog counter part. period.
a va tweaked sounds similar to its analog counter part, the differences lost in the mix, unless A/B'd directly, or tweaked to extremes.
an analog sound can be tweaked all day and night and sound good, but can be hard to control if not 100% midifiable

for me, the ability to tweak tone, snap, decay in realitime via knobs means a solid piece of drummachine kit is well worth it (eg jomox 999).

[Drone]

Um guys, you realize these are digital samples on the drum machines processed through analogue stages? You don't think it's possible to run drum samples through analogue equipment ?
The biggest difference with these machines is that they all have there own signature due to the individual layout/design & parts.
There's a ton of pros & joes out there are using programs like battery & getting very good results. With the right approach, both can get you where you need to be.

[SWAN808]

I was thinking about buying a Akai S950 for beats. Recording out of my COmp-into the sampler-them playing back out the sampler-into the sequencer and sequencing again....does anybody do this-and is it worth it? Would that make a difference?

Maybe the MPC1000 is the ticket with its USB integration-but Im not sure they have the crunch of the older akais....

I wonder whether by the time I'd gone to all the trouble I could have just set up a decent UAD compressor/transient designer/saturation plugin and kept it all ITB...

[chrisso]

Like the endless debate over analogue or softsynths, it doesn't have to be an either or.
I think Stylus is a great tool.
I can see why many of you prefer hardware machines, but it doesn't mean using Stylus is wrong. For one thing you can use it to add some little bits on top of your main drums.
Or use it as a quick writing tool and replace the drum sounds later.
I recorded my drums for a software drum sampler called Custom & Vintage.
When we played back the sounds from a midi-file, it sounded exactly like me playing, not a fuzzy, soft, unrealistic version of me playing.

[DivineChemical]

Originally Posted by SWAN808

I was thinking about buying a Akai S950 for beats. Recording out of my COmp-into the sampler-them playing back out the sampler-into the sequencer and sequencing again....does anybody do this-and is it worth it? Would that make a difference?

I used to just this when I was using an E-Mu ESI-4000. I went into the ESI via S/PDIF and then recorded the analog outputs. The difference was very much noticeable and SOOOO worth the effort!

Maybe the MPC1000 is the ticket with its USB integration-but Im not sure they have the crunch of the older akais....

The USB is another reason I changed over the MPC1000. I installed a hard drive and then migrated all of my samples over to it via USB so I'd never have to boot up the PC again. I don't know how it compares to other MPC's, but it's definitely a lot punchier than the E-Mu and noticeably more lively than any soft sampler.

[iangomes]

Could someone do me a solid and record from their mpc via spdif and their main outs with the same sample? I think this would be a pretty good test for those of us who are thinking of purchasing an mpc. My assumption is that the spdif, being digital, would be very comparable to the softsynth option. Ideally, doing the same sequence in soft synth would be nice but that's a pain in the ass. Who, oh who will answer the slutz call?

[SWAN808]

...how about a loop on the MPC1000, same loop on the PC-normalize and then we can compare the 2...?!

[DivineChemical]

Originally Posted by iangomes

Could someone do me a solid and record from their mpc via spdif and their main outs with the same sample? I think this would be a pretty good test for those of us who are thinking of purchasing an mpc. My assumption is that the spdif, being digital, would be very comparable to the softsynth option. Ideally, doing the same sequence in soft synth would be nice but that's a pain in the ass. Who, oh who will answer the slutz call?

Not me! I really really really REALLY don't wanna go digging around in the back of my rack trying to find a spdif input!

[SWAN808]

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

The USB is another reason I changed over the MPC1000. I installed a hard drive and then migrated all of my samples over to it via USB so I'd never have to boot up the PC again. I don't know how it compares to other MPC's, but it's definitely a lot punchier than the E-Mu and noticeably more lively than any soft sampler.

Cool-so do you sequence the drums-then record into the DAW? DO you track the individual sounds seperately within the DAW-ie Bass drum, Snare, hats etc...?

[DivineChemical]

Originally Posted by SWAN808

...how about a loop on the MPC1000, same loop on the PC-normalize and then we can compare the 2...?!

That I can do! I'll record the results tonight and be back tomorrow with it.