monitors for techno/house production?

[MadScientist]

ok, first its not good to have a monitor with a big bass response like the mackies got. they re too much coloring the sound, and you said you want painfully honest sound. thats not really what you get from the mackies. overall it doesnt really matter what genre you produce, a good monitor is a good monitor and a bad monitor is a bad one. especially in the electronica scene, lots of people fall in that trap of monitors with a too big bass response.

I dont know the adam a7's that well, but you might also consider a pair of klein&hummel o110.

another good tip when your mixes dont translate well is to get the cheapest ****ed up hifi system and put it in your studio as reference device...this way you can always a/b your stuff directly in your studio, and you'll probably hear problems that youldnt recognize that easily on your monitors.

[FBM]

Hi, The most important thing to do before buying good monitors is the
acoustics! Placing (selfmade) Basstraps etc. Because in a small room
mixing Techno (much Bass) without acoustic treatment is impossible!
It will keep you mixing for month's without good results, because you
simply don't hear what you do.
Greeting David

[MadScientist]

I need to second that.

[vibralux]

Get the Adam A7' s and call it a day. I won S3A'a but worked at my friends place with A7's and these are really great monitors. You cant go wrong with them- especially for the price – and Adam monitors are known for being painfully honest.

Good luck

P.S And yes- the treatment is crucial- buy it after the monitors- its more important than anything - I mean ANYTHING (except talent ;-)

[RobJB06]

What about the good old NS10s?

[lockdown]

Originally Posted by RobJB06

What about the good old NS10s?

i feel that the adam a7s are analogous to a modern version of the ns10s, but people might disagree with that.

with that said, i'd recommend owners getting their adam a7s calibrated. i had an issue with faulty shield cabling on my pair and the tech at adam U.S. also took the time the calibrate the speakers.

when i first got them, i have to admit the ribbons were painful to listen to but i'd swear they sound much smoother in the high end after calibration. this could also be placebo, but i love their sound now and think they sound "better."

[Popbott]

Originally Posted by intellijel

There are always lot's of opinions in these forums but I am especially interested to hear from people who are actually releasing records (aka professionals)...

There are always lot's of opinions in these forums but I am especially interested to hear from people who are actually releasing records (aka professionals). I have a lot of experience producing but my mixes are not translating well so I have had to do tons and tons of work (e.g. listening on lot's of systems) in order to compensate

Adam a7's are a great choice. I am sure you will have to have a transitional period where you may have to "get used to mixing on them" as with all new monitors. With that said, if you don't have your room treated with bass traps ect, now may be a good time.

Also, I have found that if you have great D/A conversion for mixing, it's possible your current monitoring situation may solve your translation problems. Benchmark, Lavry Blue and Universal Audio I have found to be excellent units and are nicely priced.

[Chrisac]

Originally Posted by FBM

Because in a small room
mixing Techno (much Bass) without acoustic treatment is impossible!
Greeting David

I dont know about that. Ive made a lot of records and not once have I made music in an acoustically treated room.

[Chrisac]

Originally Posted by intellijel

I have been using tannoy reveals (the old red passive ones) for about 10 years now. I originally bought them because they were well priced and had good reviews but I am well overdue to move into a more professional range of monitors.

Requirements:
<$1500
respond well in a small room
can be listened to for long periods of time
painfully honest sound
do not need to be used at loud volumes


From everything I have read, the Adam A7's seem to be the clear choice.
However there are few reviews that talk about it being used for dance music . Obviously for techno it helps to have a lot of low end response and so for a long time the Mackie HR824 have been popular (but also heavily criticized) for their extended low end due to a much bigger driver than the A7 has.

Some speakers with bigger drivers can be used at lower volume levels while still perceiving a flat repsonse. However I have heard that if you use speakers with drivers too big for a small room the room response (bass reflections) will overpower the speakers. In these cases smaller speakers can acually be more useful (again something like the A7). I guess I could always buy a sub to supplement the speakers if I eventually move to a place that I can monitor at louder volumes.

There are always lot's of opinions in these forums but I am especially interested to hear from people who are actually releasing records (aka professionals). I have a lot of experience producing but my mixes are not translating well so I have had to do tons and tons of work (e.g. listening on lot's of systems) in order to compensate.

This is from my personal experience but I know Im not alone in what Im saying here:

I much prefer to mix with small and inexpensive nearfield speakers which many would consider really bad because of their limited detail across the sound spectrum. Think JBL control 1's and Bose 101s. I have tried many sets of monitors over the years which have included very expensive ones that let you hear every little detail of the sound and for me and some other writer producers I have talked to that detail can be quite distracting and we find our mixes done with the cheapos turn out better.

Ill give an example: I had this set of 2500 pound monitors and I could hear every nuance of every effect processing and every sound element. Result: On home systems and cars I couldnt hear the FX because I was backing off during the mixing.

On my current crappy Bose 101's (worth about 50 quid) im happily writing and mixing a track, and just for comparison Im playing a Chemical Brother track. I can hear the same detail in their track as mine on my cheap speakers and the general bass and hi end is the same. I know the mix will translate fine.

I am advocating you at least get a cheap set of nearfileds because I can almost guarantee that if your mix sounds good on them it will sound good on just about anything else. Doesnt it stand to reason that mixes on your expensive full detailed speakers generally wont sound as good on someones home hi fi which might lead you to think your mixes arnt up to par and start the paranoia ball rolling? just a thought.

[SighBorg]

Have not used the Adam's but the best pairing I've run into for House/Electronic music were a KRK V8 & Tannoy sub system. Translated well and had plenty of oomph. Front to back imaging was well balanced on them for electronica as well.

Would not suggest a BM6a system for house music. Great for rock, but the mids are way too forward and dry for house. I also would not suggest the HR824s... I own a pair and I can pretty much say that they sound great but are not accurate. The frequency balance is weird on them & the high-end can sound like an ice pick.

I have heard of people liking the BM15s for House but I've never heard one in person.

BTW & IMO: The room makes a *huge* difference. Not just for mixing but writing too.

[sweetjesus]

blue sky media desk 2.1

[FBM]

Hi, When working in a small room with small speakers you will never be able to mix your bass in a Dance Production. Those speakers will only
produce freq. above 50 hrz. and you need to go a little lower depending
on the lowest note you use example:
B = 30.94 hrz
C = 33 hrz
C#/Db= 34.81 hrz
D = 37.13 hrz And this go's on and on!
So you see (Chrisac!) you will never be able to hear or do something about
the bass when using those notes!!! So first acoustic treatment and then
a system like Blue Sky (with a submonitor!). playing a Chemical Brothers
CD say's *nothing. Try play the same CD at Bob Katz mastering studio!
Greetings David
* Your hearing is subjective your brain is fooling you it let you hear what you
think you hear!!!! Not your small monitors! The Chemical Brother use a lot of
very low and sub notes.

[sctt_stone]

Dynaudio BM5A plus Sub
Truthful.

[krisstoff]

There are 2 schools of thought here and I agree with both to a degree What Chrisac says is very true when using expensive monitors were every nuance is heard you can end up backing of with your sounds and putting little things in that will never come across on a dancefloor in a million years. The club sound system in general is not a subtle beast and i have found that lines i have heard clear as a bell on my PMCs have needed lifting when i have played out live in short the more fearless sounding your mix is the better it will come across

Chrisac has done some great sounding mixes on JBL control ones that transfer well to club systems and i have done mixes in shockingly bad sounding rooms that have been fine on club system and compilations.

That said I have found that acoustic treatment, bass trapping in particular will work wonders to the low end of your mix and also having some big dirty shit kickers in the studio will help out as well.

Mixing for the dance-floor and the Living room are two very different things and a balance has to be struck somewhere. The best thing to do really is two mixes.

my 2 penneth for what its worth

[Grizoo]

Event ASP6
No Doubt

[Cutoff]

Focals you will be amazed !!!



Monolythe
MySpace.com - Monolythe - Paris, FR - Electro / Progrsv House / Techno - www.myspace.com/lemonolythe

[danasti]

I'd buy dynaudio BM6A, PMC TB2s (w/ an adcom GFA 545) or spend a little more and get Genelec 8040s... The new Focals are amazing too...

Adam and Mackie aren't my things. It's personal taste and what you work best with. The only way to know is to try them and find out what you really think is best. If you "can't" try them, I suggest waiting until you can, it's that important, IMO.

[Johnny Wrong]

I've had Focal Twins for about a month, and I am amazed how much quicker my mixes come together now, and how they translate almost 100% on the first go.
Before I had to go back to mixes very often because I would hear things I didn't like on other systems.

I find mixing much more pleasurable now.

It took me a long time to listen to the advice that others were giving about getting the best monitors you could afford, so now I guess now I should take their advice about treating my room too

Focal Twins: Well worth a listen.

[morebutter]

Originally Posted by Johnny Wrong

I've had Focal Twins for about a month, and I am amazed how much quicker my mixes come together now, and how they translate almost 100% on the first go.
Before I had to go back to mixes very often because I would hear things I didn't like on other systems.

I find mixing much more pleasurable now.

It took me a long time to listen to the advice that others were giving about getting the best monitors you could afford, so now I guess now I should take their advice about treating my room too

Focal Twins: Well worth a listen.

What were you using before?

[danasti]

You should. You'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner. It's cheap to make your own bass traps and control the reflection points. Focal Twins really make mixing easier.

Originally Posted by Johnny Wrong

I guess now I should take their advice about treating my room too

[Chrisac]

Originally Posted by FBM

Hi, When working in a small room with small speakers you will never be able to mix your bass in a Dance Production. Those speakers will only
produce freq. above 50 hrz. and you need to go a little lower depending
on the lowest note you use example:
B = 30.94 hrz
C = 33 hrz
C#/Db= 34.81 hrz
D = 37.13 hrz And this go's on and on!
So you see (Chrisac!) you will never be able to hear or do something about
the bass when using those notes!!! So first acoustic treatment and then
a system like Blue Sky (with a submonitor!). playing a Chemical Brothers
CD say's *nothing. Try play the same CD at Bob Katz mastering studio!
Greetings David
* Your hearing is subjective your brain is fooling you it let you hear what you
think you hear!!!! Not your small monitors! The Chemical Brother use a lot of
very low and sub notes.

I never write a anything on this forum if its not based on experience. I simply wouldnt insult the intelligence or waste the time of the person asking the question.
You know, what this mixng thing is really about? Its a vibe thing If you write a song and its happening it will practically mix its self and if its a bad song no amount of room treatment or expensive speakers will fix that. What It will do is reveal in even more detail how bad the song is.

Look, Im certainly not saying a great room and speakers wont be good for many to work. BUT, please dont imply to me or anyone else they cant make records in a kitchen using a set of JBL control 1's because I have done so many times and continue to do so. I DONT profess to have the most stunning mixes at all. Sometimes I do a good one, sometimes its not so good. But I bet you thats a vibe/song thing and nothing to do with the mix.

The old compare your mix to a CD is one of the oldest tricks in the book. It worked and still does and I couldnt give a damn that I cant hear below 50hz because qite frankly its not all its cracked up to be.

What I was really advocating the poster do is also invest in a cheap set of monitors as well as his expensive ones. 50 quid s/h is not going to break the bank and he could find the results quite interesting.

[FBM]

Hi, The best example of a good title of a book about mastering and recording is "Mastering Audio the Art and the Science" It say's it all!
ART & SCIENCE . When you want to be real creative you must be handling the technics of your medium a 100% to be able to play and do
with it what YOU! want! Story's about a VIBE and Inspiration mostly cover
technical poor knowledge. And saying that it is no problem to mix in a
not treated room and use small monitors and "It's A Vibe thing" is not
helping anyone to make better and more creative music!!! Explain to all
people on the forum Why are there Submonitors? Do you only hear your
subtones through the headphones? And how do you mix them with monitors who are not producing the freq. lower then 45/50 hz? What about the bass buildup in a small room? Why is there a acoustics forum? And the CD trick is a mastering thing a CD is a master not a mix!!!!!
Greetings David
Oh Yes I use Yamaha SW10 submonitor and Yamaha MPS 7 in a 4m x 5m treated room
and they rock!!!!

[Chrisac]

Originally Posted by FBM

Hi, The best example of a good title of a book about mastering and recording is "Mastering Audio the Art and the Science" It say's it all!
ART & SCIENCE . When you want to be real creative you must be handling the technics of your medium a 100% to be able to play and do
with it what YOU! want! Story's about a VIBE and Inspiration mostly cover
technical poor knowledge. And saying that it is no problem to mix in a
not treated room and use small monitors and "It's A Vibe thing" is not
helping anyone to make better and more creative music!!! Explain to all
people on the forum Why are there Submonitors? Do you only hear your
subtones through the headphones? And how do you mix them with monitors who are not producing the freq. lower then 45/50 hz? What about the bass buildup in a small room? Why is there a acoustics forum? And the CD trick is a mastering thing a CD is a master not a mix!!!!!
Greetings David
Oh Yes I use Yamaha SW10 submonitor and Yamaha MPS 7 in a 4m x 5m treated room
and they rock!!!!

"Its a vibe thing" is something you clearly dont understand and have never experienced. The vibe as any decent producer will tell you is crucial.

I know your type, and quite frankly Im dfegad bored.

[Thinktanx]

My .02 cents:

There is an absolute truth in what both of you guys are saying. You just come at it from different sides of the coin, that's all. No need to beat each other up.

[krisstoff]

Originally Posted by Thinktanx

My .02 cents:

There is an absolute truth in what both of you guys are saying. You just come at it from different sides of the coin, that's all. No need to beat each other up.

Yeah they are both right as you say.. A good pair a headphones won't go a miss either, if you've got room issues or small monitors. A set of HD600s or something of similar quality will really help.

[Chrisac]

I never once said he was wrong but he TOTALLY claims what Im saying is not only wrong its impossible to mix a record without being in a treated room complete with hi end speakers despite the fact I have told the him twice now that Ive made a substantial amount of records. One of the remixes I did went to NO3 in the Uk charts was on TOTPs etc and sounded just fine comapared to the rest. It was made in a cavern room on a set of Bose 101's in one evening. No lies, no bull. Now that I know who kristoff is I can also say that hes made records in untreated rooms using average speakers.

Im not sitting here being told what Im doing is an impossibility.

[Thinktanx]

Chrisac, I totally agree with your sentiments about vibe. A great song does mix itself to a large degree. Particularly a song that is written and arranged well from the outset with a balanced mix in mind. This is especially the case in electronic music, I find.

On the flip side, surely you will concede that engineers the world over don't invest so much money in monitors and acoustics for no reason. Even if it's just to squeeze that extra 5% out of a song. Even a song with a great vibe from the outset can still be improved by a balanced, dynamic, and detailed mix. If you're gonna squeeze that extra 5% out of a certain sound or an entire mix, you need an accurate/controlled environment to ever hear it. That's my rather simplistic, humble opinion.

Oh, and I also totally agree with your main point about having some cheap, smaller speakers to use for reference. I also like to reference with iPod earbuds because, outside of a club environment, that's what about 75% of people are gonna be listening on these days.

You guys need a trip down memory lane, so go up to your loft and dig out your old eps and cds from about 1986 to 1996 and have a listen.

Hip-Hop, Jungle, D&B, Techno , Break Beat, Rave, HardCore, House all produced in a very small rooms by people who got on with the music. These rooms had no treatment apart from the junk, the bed and thick duvets under the speakers. Sounds like a joke but its fact and now that you have your old ep's and cd's down you will hear a character in that music that is lost, sad but true.

Every thing now days is all about "conform" and thats why a majoraty of the music you hear today all has the same character because every one has become fanatic about the quality of the room and the price of the compressors, expanders, eq's, ect.... Back in the day every one was fanatic about producing the music and pushing the whole scene forward, you can hear this vibe in the music. The guys and girls back then did not have much choice in the gear they could buy because of the price's. They worked hard with very little gear and really set standards ( unknowingly ) to every form of dance music you hear today but those standards have turned into snobbish ideas about how music should sound and how it should be produced.

I think it would give us all a breath of fresh air to think back to those days and just listen to the years that really put dance music on the map. Even today you can learn from your roots, never forget that and if the 80s & 90s never happened i would not be writing this post.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT

End of rant thumbsup

[Thinktanx]

While I absolutely agree with your sentiment, let me throw this one at you: do you really believe that having some accurate, detailed monitors and a treated room would have negatively affected all those records??

I understand and appreciate the feelings of nostalgia and that solid, excited feeling of innovation that accompanies those early hip-hop and electronic records from the 80's. However, personally, I think there is a lot of fantastic music coming out these days, particularly when it comes to electronic music. Of course, there is a lot of garbage to sift through. It's part and parcel of these times when damn near anybody can release a record on the internet. Finding the good stuff maybe takes a little more digging.

More to the point, I don't think that either having or not having accurate, detailed monitors and room treatment makes the ultimate difference. Of course, the melodies, rhythms, and harmonies are most important. A great sound and a great mix is the icing on the cake. But, after all, this is a site devoted to the discussion of gear.