Mixing In Ableton

[Tapwatr]

I know Ableton Live is a very competent writing tool but am still hesitant to use it for the final mix. In previous versions the I thought the mixing algorithm was muddy and lacked depth. How is the 64 Bit engine sounding compared to the previous?

I've yet to upgrade to 7 as I only use 6 for it's "live" aspects.

[Dubreak]

Originally Posted by Tapwatr

I know Ableton Live is a very competent writing tool but am still hesitant to use it for the final mix. In previous versions the I thought the mixing algorithm was muddy and lacked depth. How is the 64 Bit engine sounding compared to the previous?

I've yet to upgrade to 7 as I only use 6 for it's "live" aspects.

I'd be interested to know too, I'm currently rendering stuff out of Live6 into ProTools.

I will wait until v8 comes out because v6 is working with out BUGS for me. A lot of people having major issues with 7 at the mo but i can tell you that the 64 Bit engine sounds "cleaner". v6 sounds great on my system ( no complainants here ) so i don't need that extra fidelity, anyway just try the demo and you can hear it for yourself.

and mixing with a pencil dfegad is really cool

TFF rewire

[Tapwatr]

At the rate Ableton releases new versions of Live, 8 won't be too far off. It's good to hear it sounds cleaner as the muddiness is what I didn't like.

Next question, friends of mine who use Ableton Live don't really like the side-chaining features. Anyone else have this complaint? Without decent side-chaining I doubt I'd make the switch from Logic 8 which has killer side-chaining built in.

Originally Posted by Tapwatr

At the rate Ableton releases new versions of Live, 8 won't be too far off. It's good to hear it sounds cleaner as the muddiness is what I didn't like.

Next question, friends of mine who use Ableton Live don't really like the side-chaining features. Anyone else have this complaint? Without decent side-chaining I doubt I'd make the switch from Logic 8 which has killer side-chaining built in.

Side-chaining is crap in live so i ended up buying this: http://www.db-audioware.com/videos/scc/scc.html

very impressive plugin and works like a charm ! not bad for 62euros

[Greg_KPX]

Ok, I'll give you a real world example... just to keep this thread from becoming a bunch of opinions about which DAW sounds better etc... also keep in mind that I used to HATE the way my own mixes sounded in Ableton till I worked out how to mix better...

A VERY large amount of music has been released on vinyl, cd and mp3 by respected musicians that has been written and mixed in Ableton Live... and most people who listen to these records won't know or care...

So at the end of the day, it will be a work flow choice for you. If you're happy with the work flow, you'll work out/learn how to make it sound good...

Hi Greg

Don't get me wrong mate i love LIVE and to be honest it has revolutionized sampling as we know it but some people don't see this yet. On a personal level i don't feel that i can use it as my "compleat" DAW in its present state but ableton are going down the right road and working hard to improve the software.

I personally find it cramped and i have suggested to ableton to have a breakout function for the arrangement view so you can put it on another monitor, think about it: the session view on one display and arrangement on another and your plugins ect on the third a luxury i know but then i get to move my eyes and my head to three different positions while i work and lets face it mixing itb with live is a lot of eye work on one screen.

So to sound off my rant, its getting there and i will be a happy man when i can use it exclusively !

peter

[Ben F]

I'd say ableton is more for throwing a track together than mixing it. It just doesn't have a great work flow for mixing. Doesn't mean you can't create a killer mix in Ableton, but prefer to bounce the tracks out and mix in Logic 8 or Pro Tools.

[Dubreak]

Originally Posted by Greg_KPX

I used to HATE the way my own mixes sounded in Ableton till I worked out how to mix better...

There is a definite boost in volume when Live is ReWired, albeit due to increased headroom in the master app (Cubase SXx or ProTools7.x). But I like that boost and the room of separate stems you can work with in the bigger apps. But I may be mad...


btw I love Live and Reason too, a bigger DAW as a recording system is just the way I've learned to work. That said, I'd never gig with Cubase or ProTools, I view them as stationary recording tools. Whereas Live is Live use.

[vibralux]

Sketch as many ideas as possilble in Ableton- mangle all the stuff as much as possible and then export it to Cubase or Nuendo. I mixed one song in Ableton- it was a pain in the ass.

PEace

M

[jude]

Originally Posted by Ben F

I'd say ableton is more for throwing a track together than mixing it. It just doesn't have a great work flow for mixing. Doesn't mean you can't create a killer mix in Ableton, but prefer to bounce the tracks out and mix in Logic 8 or Pro Tools.

so true! except i mix in SX3 or buss all outputs from abelton to my console

[backplay]

Originally Posted by Tapwatr

I know Ableton Live is a very competent writing tool but am still hesitant to use it for the final mix. In previous versions the I thought the mixing algorithm was muddy and lacked depth. How is the 64 Bit engine sounding compared to the previous?

I've yet to upgrade to 7 as I only use 6 for it's "live" aspects.

Soundwise i don't hear a big (or even a small) improvement, it still lacks depht and detail in the high-mid and high. Sounds like pooh to me.
Using it in rewire helps.

I read somewhere that the dithering in Live is the main problem of the soundengine.
The way to overcome this is to bounce it to the highest Bit/Sample rate possible and dither it down in another program.
I haven't testet this yet because i only use it in live situations.

[Nahuel]

I like to mix in live... for demos it's ok but:

- you need plugin meeters
- disable warp, btw that warp is an issue, I love live but when I read that fruity loops have a superior time stretch algorythm... from the same compagny...
-audio engine still sux a lil bit...

but it's cool. I love live.

[Dubious]

I use LIVE as my primary DAW.

I just got sik of bouncing / rewiring years ago so i just stuck with Ableton.

A few keys have already been mentioned - namely rendering your tracks and removing the warps once they are no longer needed.

I also route all my audio OTB and mix through the board. Using Ableton to deal with automation.

I also do any compressing / EQ OTB as well. The only plugs i use anymore are the filter delay.

Though the new compresser in 7 has simple and effective side chaining now.

So basically i treat ableton as my tape deck, record to it, use it for what it excells at ie editing / quantizing. Personally i LOVE the simplified werkflow of LIVE and thats why I've just stuck with it as my primary DAW.

[Oliver Chesler]

Here's how I personally get great mixes while using Ableton:
wire to the ear » » Keep your channel faders low and the Master at 0db!

[Nahuel]

Originally Posted by Oliver Chesler

Here's how I personally get great mixes while using Ableton:
wire to the ear » » Keep your channel faders low and the Master at 0db!

yes that's what I do, my track are between -30 to -10 db in order to leave something like 8/6 db of headroom. And to get a nice "analog" feel I drop a colortone on the master buss (I usualy use an "hot ssl" impulse) and beef the mix until the peaks are at-3/-2 db. I get ok results like that.

[b05q]

Originally Posted by Oliver Chesler

Here's how I personally get great mixes while using Ableton:
wire to the ear » » Keep your channel faders low and the Master at 0db!

haha. i discovered this by accident, and have been experimenting periodically with overdriving different parts of the signal path in live to figure out what was introducing the crap.

as far as live 7, i really like the new synths, the drum rack, and the 'external instruments,' and there are some nifty editing features. it would be difficult to return to 6.

You can also use your ears guys or not and meter the master ?

between -30 to -10 db in order to leave something like 8/6 db of headroom

Thats a bit extreme imho because inevitably your pumping up the volume on your amp, thus your losing the value of your ears. I keep an RMS value of around 9/8db while tracking ( master value = amp value ) and thats just using my ears but i do achieve this 9/10 with out using the meters and thats a nice function live has, you can keep the volume slider with out the db's .

I also don't see the point in boosting +6/7 db gain with effects on the master that is not my idea of getting a optimal mix. Keeping the master at 0db is common knowledge but having the master at 0db and pushing the amp to +8db is not good practice in my book

Thats why every one sounds so loud these days, they blast the shit out of the master bus and the dynamics get destroyed in the process add the fact that most of its digital and your ears get tired very quickly indeed.

Learn to mix with your ears, you will feel better

[Chrisac]

I seem to be hit or miss when mixing in live but I think this is down to the quality of the song. But what really doesnt help is the total lack of safe solo groups. It can end up being a very mouse click intensive and brain frazzling process mixing in live if you have lots of VSTs using numerous seperate outs. To just solo one sound means clicking 3 seperate tracks
The midi track
Instrument channel
group channel
do that 100 times during a mix
depending on how your tracks are laid out and how big the session is you can find your self playing hunt the channel a lot, especially if you have the track widths set to thin which you need to do if you want to see whats going on. Its now at version 7 and I think not having this standard feature is pretty bad. Its the reason I didnt upgrade.

[Dubreak]

You could always multi-midi-map the solo buttons in question to a single button on an external controller. :D

[Chrisac]

Originally Posted by Dubreak

You could always multi-midi-map the solo buttons in question to a single button on an external controller. :D

In reality assignments of all sorts change during a mix and its totally random. I can end up adding new layers at the mixing point, I can end up deleting stuff, or channels are assigned to different groups for a multitue of reasons anything goes really. The work around would mean I would constantly have to be thinking of which button is assigned to which channels which could constantly be evolving not to mention actually having to remember the assignments. I work pretty fast and I dont have the time to design and learn new buttons assigns with each song I mix. Nah, I think Ableton just need to add this feature thats been around since the caveman.

[Nahuel]

Originally Posted by time ago

You can also use your ears guys or not and meter the master ?

between -30 to -10 db in order to leave something like 8/6 db of headroom

Thats a bit extreme imho because inevitably your pumping up the volume on your amp, thus your losing the value of your ears. I keep an RMS value of around 9/8db while tracking ( master value = amp value ) and thats just using my ears but i do achieve this 9/10 with out using the meters and thats a nice function live has, you can keep the volume slider with out the db's .

I also don't see the point in boosting +6/7 db gain with effects on the master that is not my idea of getting a optimal mix. Keeping the master at 0db is common knowledge but having the master at 0db and pushing the amp to +8db is not good practice in my book

Thats why every one sounds so loud these days, they blast the shit out of the master bus and the dynamics get destroyed in the process add the fact that most of its digital and your ears get tired very quickly indeed.

Learn to mix with your ears, you will feel better

mmm do what you like. I like it like that. the + 6 db boost with the colortone pro give me the harmonic distorsion I want in my demoz. The same mix without it will sound too clinical for my taste (unless you run a brunch of "color" plugins on each track, i do it but jus for eq/comp/etc and my cpu is already used at it max + on the master buss it give "glue"). do what you want and dont worry about my ears, thank you

Edit: BTW I dont up the volume on my amp, my plugin is already on when I start mixin.

[backplay]

Originally Posted by Chrisac

I seem to be hit or miss when mixing in live but I think this is down to the quality of the song. But what really doesnt help is the total lack of safe solo groups. It can end up being a very mouse click intensive and brain frazzling process mixing in live if you have lots of VSTs using numerous seperate outs. To just solo one sound means clicking 3 seperate tracks
The midi track
Instrument channel
group channel
do that 100 times during a mix
depending on how your tracks are laid out and how big the session is you can find your self playing hunt the channel a lot, especially if you have the track widths set to thin which you need to do if you want to see whats going on. Its now at version 7 and I think not having this standard feature is pretty bad. Its the reason I didnt upgrade.

+1 That's a real pain in the @$$

If you have 61/88 keys you have the solution right under your nose.
So if you want to solo:
midi track
instr ch
group ch

You just assign lets say C1 on your keyboard to solo all 3 parts simply by pressing it. It's up to you how complicated you want to set this up but if you keep it as a rule to work from left to right just as with the session view you can't really go wrong and if your editing, adding or deleting parts you just re-assign the old key to the new part ( parts ).

Example:
Drum Loop 1 C1 On / Off
Drum Loop 2 C#1 On / Off
Drum Loop 3 D1 On / Off
Solo all drum loops or Drum Loop 1 D#1

The combinations to this are unlimited and the creative possibilities are endless.

If you can work this into your mix i think you will be using your ears more instead of pointing and clicking. Don't forget that live lets you assign or re-assign anything to any key.
Hope this helps

[807Recordings]

Been playing with it and I love Logic and Sequoia. Before I used to rewire it or just not use it. However these guys really are getting on their game. The new audio engine if you do not push the levels is extremely clean. I would say on par with logic.

[dosage1]

yea.. im not a pro at all but a good mix can be achieved in ableton imo by not driving the channel levels too hi and disabling all warping on audio of course .. also drag the fader section for db meters

[filin]

Originally Posted by Chrisac

In reality assignments of all sorts change during a mix and its totally random. I can end up adding new layers at the mixing point, I can end up deleting stuff, or channels are assigned to different groups for a multitue of reasons anything goes really. The work around would mean I would constantly have to be thinking of which button is assigned to which channels which could constantly be evolving not to mention actually having to remember the assignments. I work pretty fast and I dont have the time to design and learn new buttons assigns with each song I mix. Nah, I think Ableton just need to add this feature thats been around since the caveman.

How would keeping your midi assignments in order be any more hassle than keeping you solo groups in order?

Also, if you enable "solo in place", you shouldn't have to solo the group, it'll do this automatically.

[mission1]

Ableton Live, won me over from Pro Tools, which won me over from Logic, which won me over from Digital Performer. What am I saying? I am saying, in the end, it comes down to capturing the spark of creativity for me. If I need heavy lifting DAWs I own them all and have them ready to go, but they are top heavy and slow me down. Sure, they've got all the features one expects from a checklist, but what they don't have is what Live has and that is fluidity, at least for me. So I bought Live thinking it would be a good sketch pad to supplement, and it turned into my main DAW.

[Chrisac]

Originally Posted by time ago

If you have 61/88 keys you have the solution right under your nose.
So if you want to solo:
midi track
instr ch
group ch

You just assign lets say C1 on your keyboard to solo all 3 parts simply by pressing it. It's up to you how complicated you want to set this up but if you keep it as a rule to work from left to right just as with the session view you can't really go wrong and if your editing, adding or deleting parts you just re-assign the old key to the new part ( parts ).

Example:
Drum Loop 1 C1 On / Off
Drum Loop 2 C#1 On / Off
Drum Loop 3 D1 On / Off
Solo all drum loops or Drum Loop 1 D#1

The combinations to this are unlimited and the creative possibilities are endless.

If you can work this into your mix i think you will be using your ears more instead of pointing and clicking. Don't forget that live lets you assign or re-assign anything to any key.
Hope this helps

I sort of know Lives capabilities pretty well and had used it since version 2 right up to version 6 as my main daw. But ive now given up on it as the main daw because of a number of bread and butter stuff thats missing and which I find slows me down considerably. I understand many Live users enjoy work arounds but to be honest I got tired of having to use work arounds for features that I was using 15 years ago like safe groups and groove quantise.

Im sure though that many are more than happy to assign audio channels to keys on their keyboard. But without going in to detail and exaplaing how I work the method would definitely still mean I would be constantly reassigning and to be perfectly honest Im just not in to using a midi keyboard as part of the mixing deal. I sort of prefer to use that for programming musical parts in to my sequencer, I sort of find that more productive at the end of the day...Making actual music I mean

[Chrisac]

Originally Posted by filin

How would keeping your midi assignments in order be any more hassle than keeping you solo groups in order?

Also, if you enable "solo in place", you shouldn't have to solo the group, it'll do this automatically.

Safe solo isnt some esoteric way out fancy feature. This is standard stuff thats been around since the earliest daw and before that on consoles for decades. You sort of presume once I have assigned channels, made a template then im hunkey dorey. No, thats not how it works in the real world.

The safe solo only works with aux return channels. Now before you give me the work around of sending my audio pre fader using aux sends to multiple Aux returns lets just say thats a nonsense work around which also brings with it the requirement for more work arounds. But if I had to choose a solution it would be that one rather than assigning channels to keys on my midi kbd.

At the end of the day after making a helluva lot of records using Live and only live this is how I feel about mixing in the software now dfegaddfegaddfegad