Mixing: Analog vs Digital

[Popbott]

Mixing: Analog vs Digital or "In the Box"

I will take that most poeple here mix "in the box". First, for features like total recall, available track count, effect plug-in availability, total automation, cut/paste options, the list goes on. There are a million reasons artists/producers mix digital. After mixing in Protools HD, (instead of the crappy LE) with a good converter, tracking with nice class A pre's, I would say it sounds expensivley AWESOME, "mixing in the box".

I still find articles where my favorite artists/producers have used Protools HD in tandum with an SSL or Neve console to produce their final mix. Some of these artists/producers include (please correct me if I am mistaken) Nine Inch Nails, Shania Twian, Depeche Mode and I am sure there are more than a dozen others.

My production team works mainly with synthesizers/samplers and are preparing to test final mixes using a 3 card Protools HD rig and a recently aquired TAC Magnum Console. We all have our own expectations on the Magnum. We are limited to 32 tracks and still have another 192/IO to buy. Being fans of outboard EQ, we are very excited at the prospects, but wonder what limitations to expect, or what audio nuances we will gain.

I am interested in knowing how many artists/producers here mix "outside the box" or otherwise using what gear?

[deuc647]

i used to mix OTB with a tascam 3700 and an alesis HD24XR and then back into a daw through a rosetta 200 and the results were great, i think it wasnt a matter of the electronics being better but it was that i grabbed real faders and adjusted pan and eq with knobs, it makes the job a lot more fun and it is easier to get some more depth when mixing to a console. currently im on PTHD and while i love the sound, mixing is a big drag, i want a control 24 but im thinking that it might not be the same as a console, i sold my console for 800 cuz i needed to get the money for HD and am now trying to convince the guy to let me have it back so i can send it to get recapped and all so i can mix on some real faders again, i think the speed of achieving a good mix will have you in awww whe you do it, goodluck, you just might convert!

[jonnypowell]

I've been mixing ITB for 7 years, and have just made the move to go OTB.
I invested a LOT of money to do so though.. I am still waiting on my Toft console to arrive in the next few days, and then I'll let you know how I go!

[studjo]

mixing OTB all the way

my thoughts: ITB is way - way - WAY cheaper but for me not as gratifying as OTB. For me mixing is like playing an instrument: you touch it and the instrument gives you a "response" which changes your playing. ITB never gave me that feeling.

Jo

[jonnypowell]

Originally Posted by studjo

mixing OTB all the way

my thoughts: ITB is way - way - WAY cheaper but for me not as gratifying as OTB. For me mixing is like playing an instrument: you touch it and the instrument gives you a "response" which changes your playing. ITB never gave me that feeling.

Jo

well put...

[Strobian]

I've worked both ways, and although I am curious about how OTB would sound again. I most likely will stay ITB. A summing mixer has crossed my mind as of late, but I can't justify it. As long as you have some good pres, and use some outboard analog processing I think you can get good results ITB. I guess it depends what you are trying to do, and what sound you are looking for. I run tracks through an API 2500, and it gives some analog circutry sounds to my tracks and final mixes. Also I find that using a combination of digital and analog sounds really gives a round sound. I do like the warmth of a mixer, its hard not to.

[GYang]

ITB mix can be already very good with 1000 $ budget (PC + sound card + Tracktion).
Even 100x more expensive ICON based PT rig will not be guarantee for any better sound related to ITB mixing.

I can't imagine to mix analogue synths ITB.
Analogue (UNFORTUNATELY) is completely different.
Start, consumer or prosumer level is already more expensive, but IMO doesn't bring too much to the table.
Advanced project studio or semi-pro level with OTB mixing would cost already a small fortune (converters, cables, console, outboards) and possibility to reach great result would depend very much on skills of engineer.
In same time, when all put together ITB mix where instruments like guitars, real drums, good analogue synths and acoustic spaces are important part of sound, can't come close to OTB mix in feel of space, depth, emotional impact and other atributes of well produced material.

So, with low budget and cheap components overall better stay ITB.

[Mark1353]

Originally Posted by GYang

So, with low budget and cheap components overall better stay ITB.

And if you have low budget, don't ever do the mistake to find out if there's difference between ITB and OTB, its too painful.

Im in the process to move back to OTB. In my early music making years I was low budget OTB (some nice synths, samplers and drum machines, but no good mixer, processors or effects), then I went ITB, learned to listen and now I want back to OTB. This time I want high budget OTB, so this transition is gonna take a while...

[GYang]

Originally Posted by Mark1353

And if you have low budget, don't ever do the mistake to find out if there's difference between ITB and OTB, its too painful.

...

It took me years....
Well, never looked back.
It's worth to live ful-fledged OTB life.
ITB is jail for senses,

[jonnypowell]

I've spent the last 3 months building up my kit to go OTB.
My Toft ATB should be arriving today.... Everything else is ready to go!!!

I'll let ya'll know how I go!!

[ONDRAY]

Originally Posted by Mark1353

Im in the process to move back to OTB. In my early music making years I was low budget OTB (some nice synths, samplers and drum machines, but no good mixer, processors or effects), then I went ITB, learned to listen and now I want back to OTB. This time I want high budget OTB, so this transition is gonna take a while...

+1 for that, when I first started I set aside a good sum of cash and bought all the gear at once, all OTB outboard gear, mixer and synth. Although it wasn't high end, it wasn't low end Behringer stuff either. Then I sold everything slowly and bought more ITB solutions, and spend more coin on VST etc... Now I'm finding that I've learned to listen and know what I want, and am starting to process more hybrid ITB and some things like drum stem and bass I go OTB and record the mixdown realtime back in the computer.

One thing's for sure going forward I only want to buy high end gear for OTB gear. No sense getting allot of shit OTB processors. Stay ITB if you're gonna go that route.

[Ben F]

Mix ITB using a variety of analogue outboard as inserts and you'll get very close to an OTB mix. The secret is recording the sounds with analogue processing and decent preamps to begin with. The most important aspect for mixing IMO is analogue compression, especially for electrionic music, and some analogue effects such as the Roland Space echo. Most of the best mixes I hear in the mastering studio these days are done within software using some outboard hardware, and I have to say analogue synths as well, generally processed through some sort of unique hardware (doesn't have to be expensive). Unfortunately analogue compression isn't cheap, but it's still more affordable and flexible than buying a desk.

If you buy a decent compressor such as the C2, La-2a or distressors, you can use them for recording, mixing and also drum sub-groups. Very flexible.

A good mixer should be able to create depth and warmth using proper EQ technique and effect processing ITB. But I agree with the above posters than some analogue is essential, it just has a different vibe and organic quality that plug-ins have failed to match (as yet).

[vaesion]

I may be a ****** in saying this but I believe that digital is never gona sound better than analog until they stop trying to emulate old gear and press on to new sonic discoveries in the digital realm. The digital version will always be a emulation or a generic version of the real deal. A blow up doll will never be better than a real women no matter how great the emulation.

The day will come when the older engineers will pass in thier hope to bring the past back and the new engineers will invent things that would have never been thought of trying to emulate something from back then.

Instead of playing a tape machine and trying to emulate it they will venture to find a level of warmth not yet experienced by man.

Hope I live to see it.

B

[Ben F]

Originally Posted by vaesion

A blow up doll will never be better than a real women no matter how great the emulation.
B

You never know, after a few beers and what not. They are getting pretty realistic these days...but you would feel like a bit of a loser, unless they invent talking ones that told you how great you were in bed.

[Mark1353]

Originally Posted by Ben F

Mix ITB using a variety of analogue outboard as inserts and you'll get very close to an OTB mix. The secret is recording the sounds with analogue processing and decent preamps to begin with. The most important aspect for mixing IMO is analogue compression, especially for electrionic music, and some analogue effects such as the Roland Space echo. Most of the best mixes I hear in the mastering studio these days are done within software using some outboard hardware, and I have to say analogue synths as well, generally processed through some sort of unique hardware (doesn't have to be expensive). Unfortunately analogue compression isn't cheap, but it's still more affordable and flexible than buying a desk.

If you buy a decent compressor such as the C2, La-2a or distressors, you can use them for recording, mixing and also drum sub-groups. Very flexible.

A good mixer should be able to create depth and warmth using proper EQ technique and effect processing ITB. But I agree with the above posters than some analogue is essential, it just has a different vibe and organic quality that plug-ins have failed to match (as yet).

But using outboard processing doesn't help that simple fact, that when you mix for example a big kick and a big clap/snare together, it sounds like distortion ITB (not exaggerating much), OTB it sounds powerful and the way it should be. ITB you end up tweaking sounds thinner and thinner, when in reality you shouldn't have to. And also the depth is so much better OTB, the sound doesn't have that digital tighness/flatness in it.

[jonnypowell]

Originally Posted by Mark1353

But using outboard processing doesn't help that simple fact, that when you mix for example a big kick and a big clap/snare together, it sounds like distortion ITB (not exaggerating much), OTB it sounds powerful and the way it should be. ITB you end up tweaking sounds thinner and thinner, when in reality you shouldn't have to. And also the depth is so much better OTB, the sound doesn't have that digital tighness/flatness in it.

I agree 100%
I'm over-whelmed at the difference after starting to mix on my toft with outboard comps. Goodbye digital flatness hello analogue depth!!!

[Mark1353]

Originally Posted by jonnypowell

I agree 100%
I'm over-whelmed at the difference after starting to mix on my toft with outboard comps. Goodbye digital flatness hello analogue depth!!!

Well, Im happy for you. And what a nice setup you have. In addition to my synth/sampler/fx collection, I now have a 30-channel TAC Scorpion, for which I'm gonna do some modifications and a Studer tape machine. Still need 2 x Fireface 800 like you have and at I'm thinking of buying also 2 x Great River MEQ-1NV preamp/eq combos. Two high end mics is on the list too. Now, all I need is the money!

[Drasko]

anyone here have samples of any tracks mixed both ITB and OTB?
I plan on having the next one mixed ITB (vst/uad plugs) and OTB (neve board)

So I will post that when it's done (probably a few weeks)

anyone have any samples right now?

[Ben F]

Originally Posted by Mark1353

But using outboard processing doesn't help that simple fact, that when you mix for example a big kick and a big clap/snare together, it sounds like distortion ITB (not exaggerating much), OTB it sounds powerful and the way it should be. ITB you end up tweaking sounds thinner and thinner, when in reality you shouldn't have to.

Sorry don't agree. The recorded sound is pretty much dependent on your AD converters, if they are top notch there is no distortion.

[Mark1353]

Originally Posted by Ben F

Sorry don't agree. The recorded sound is pretty much dependent on your AD converters, if they are top notch there is no distortion.

I wasn't talking about that. The converters have nothing to do with how the software sums the tracks together. Even if you record the tracks with top notch converters, they are still going to be summed inside the software.

[Popbott]

Originally Posted by Mark1353

I wasn't talking about that. The converters have nothing to do with how the software sums the tracks together. Even if you record the tracks with top notch converters, they are still going to be summed inside the software.

You are totally correct. Mixing in Protools LE is WAY DIFFERENT than mixing in HD or OTB with a nice console. When I was mixing in LE, I tracked everything using class a pre-amps with an Apogee Rosetta for conversion. While the individual sounds were cleaner, the separation was still awful because of the way LE sums it mixes.

I have also mixed from LE using an 8 channel API Audio 8200a Summing mixer going out of the Rosetta. The separation was better than mixing ITB with LE, but not that much different, not a difference worth $3000. Mastering gave us more separation, but I still sold the API.

Protools LE: $1200.
Protools HD: $7,000 - $14,000.
Outboard console with nice separation: $4000 to $10,000 more or less.

It has been my experience that mixing in Protools HD ITB sounds great with NICE separation and summing. Using nice Pres with great conversion is great, but it's the whole cheap ITB computer summing that makes me want to go OTB to begin with. It was and has been a long, frustrating, expensive learning experience.

[Popbott]

Originally Posted by Ben F

Mix ITB using a variety of analogue outboard as inserts and you'll get very close to an OTB mix. The secret is recording the sounds with analogue processing and decent preamps to begin with.

A good mixer should be able to create depth and warmth using proper EQ technique and effect processing ITB. But I agree with the above posters than some analogue is essential, it just has a different vibe and organic quality that plug-ins have failed to match (as yet).

Great post Ben F. IMO, if you mix ITB with great conversion and nice pres, professional mixing techniques with professional outboard gear mastering can and will take care of most summing problems.

But wouldn't OTB mixing with professional outboard gear mastering sound AWESOME?!!?!!

[BrandRecordingCo]

Well...for me, mixing OTB is the only way. Mixing in a DAW is not musical, but more technical. When I can get my hands on a good analog board, I feel it better and it is about the music. This doesn't work for everyone, but it definitely does for me. I will never mix ITB again, unless I absolutely have too.

[Ben F]

Originally Posted by Popbott

Great post Ben F. IMO, if you mix ITB with great conversion and nice pres, professional mixing techniques with professional outboard gear mastering can and will take care of most summing problems.

But wouldn't OTB mixing with professional outboard gear mastering sound AWESOME?!!?!!

Yes it does. I find most really good ITB mixes come to life after mastering, and the ITB mixes done properly vs OTB mixes gap is narrowing.

The proof is in the results. I've heard stunning ITB mixes (generally Logic users) that are up to anything I've heard internationally. The difference is more apparent with rock and acoustic music- especially tape vs digital recording. For this you can't beat analogue.

To put this into perspective I went to a clients studio recently who generally mixed OTB using a Soundcraft Ghost. He then did an A/B test running through the Ghost or just using Logic for summing. We both preferred the accuracy of the Logic mix. A SSL Duende and UAD-1 card was used for the Logic mix. He then mixed one of the tracks on an SSL and decided that after comparing the difference it wasn't worth the amount of $$$ it would cost the record company (that they would have to pay back). Ultimately the song sounded amazing either way...we were very surprised at how far software processing (especially the SSL plug-ins) have come.

Some of my mastering clients are among the best electronic producers in the country. I find many of them are now mixing ITB with OTB hardware inserts, keeping in mind they also use a combination of analogue sythns/drum machines and software. However, for rock/electronic crossover stuff many still use a decent hardware mixer. Ultimately it's what gets the job done on time with the best work flow, so choose your weapon.

[Popbott]

Originally Posted by Ben F

Yes it does. I find most really good ITB mixes come to life after mastering, and the ITB mixes done properly vs OTB mixes gap is narrowing.

Ultimately it's what gets the job done on time with the best work flow, so choose your weapon.

Well Said Ben, and a great post to this thread, thank you.

The ITB gap on mixing IS narrowing, I just have a chronic complaint on PT LE mixing/summing sounding comparitively the same as mixing on a small Mackie mixer.

I have not tried the SSL plugs, but have read nothing but good things about them. I have also read mixing on Logic 8 is better than ever, I have been thinking of going that route and give it a test run.

I am a firm believer that mastering is a HUGE part of your final sound and who you hire is especially important. It can kind of throw the whole ITB/OTB discussion out of the window.

[rawdigits]

OTB is more fun


Me likes them knobs..

[pyvnd]

Hi. I have a Yamaha i88x that I run my synths into and then into my computer which is running Live 5.2 as its daw at the moment. I use a Yamaha RS7000 to sequence my synths (both hardware and soft) and record multi-track into Live and apply effects there.

My mixing is done in the box at the moment. I have a few questions.

1) Should I consider a different DAW such as Cubase or Audition to do my multi-track recording. Something that may give me more headroom or a more analog sound or whatever it is we all want.

2) Is there a product that can take all of my digital tracks and sum them analog and then give me a final mix . I don't mind doing the tactile mixing in the box because I'd like to avoid extra cables and extra mixer. I was hoping there is something that can take all the digital tracks, feed them via firewire cable into some kind of external box, sum them in the box and record them.

I appreciate your input.

[kamp+slip+stytch]

[quote=Popbott;1589598]Mixing: Analog vs Digital or "In the Box"



a dozen others.

or what audio nuances we will gain.

quote]
damnit PB!!!!!!! You've vexed me again, i was gonna start a thread about building a new PC......fuc.kit!!!
(high 5 Sexxy time!! (lololol))........you have broken my dance to a drool puddle on the floor, now i'm slip dancin'!)
Peace out! PB!!! Killer thread bro!!!!
slipsnatcychchch+ed+all+underground+around+ fuuck

[theother]

OTB is so much better and also a lot more $!!

When I say a lot more I mean at least 10x more expensive.

Recalls are a pain and it takes a lot to write everything down (patchbay routing, FX settings,...)

But the result justifies it for me.

If you don't have a lot of $ stick with ITB. You still can get decent results. Or go mixing to a studio with a good desk and monitors/room.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

Even going cheap OTB sounds better than ITB to me. Velvet Acid Christ uses a Mackie 1202VLZ and it sounds better to my ears than today's ITB mixes.

I cannot speak to the quality of Velvet Acid Christ's work, but when I first hit the ITB sonic wall, I believed that I could use a Mackie 1604 VLZ to do the cheap summing, AND IT DIDN'T WORK. Yes, it sounded different, but not in any way better. Then I came across a Midas Venice, plugged that in, and WOW, big difference. Now I have a Verona, but I'm selling that as I move from bedroom to real studio.