Logic ES2 alternative

[Orren]

God help me, I think I'm going to agree with you quite a bit in this post.

Originally Posted by gregohb

I upgraded to a quad 2.6 and Logic 8, and it doesn't seem to run much faster than my previous G5 2x1.8.

I think my experience with the same computer mirrors yours. Let me just be more specific. The UI/UE (user experience) Logic 8 on my Mac Pro (also Quad 2.6) doesn't seem any faster than Logic 7 on my old G5 2x2GHz. On the other hand, it has a lot more juice available for plug-ins.

I'll be honest; I was expecting a major jump in GUI speed with Logic 8, and we didn't get it. To me, that's a significant disappointment. OTOH, realistically I know that there's a lot more UI elements, all of which are real-time manipulatable, on the Logic 8 GUI. I wonder if it were possible to reduce the Logic 8 GUI down to that of Logic 7 (only one channel in the inspector, no library/list section, task bar, no editor pane, etc) if it would be quicker. But we could never really do that.

I was also expecting an instant speed increase with Leopard, since I know that with Leopard, the facility exists to move more of the GUI of Cocoa UIs to the graphics card. But then I found out that the application itself needs to activate those features. So I'm hopeful that an update at some point of Logic 8 will improve speed dramatically as significant numbers of UI elements get moved to the GPU. That is of course pure conjecture.

Its strange to me how I have a very pristine well maintained music system which is not always that stable, and yet I have an imac G5 for email and web and simple stuff, which runs months at a time without a reboot.

Actually, I've had my Mac Pro for about four months, and it's never had a Kernel Panic, and I think maybe one freeze. So it's a rock, the most stable Mac I've ever owned. But it's not that surprising that any machine that does music would be less stable than an email machine, since in general a music machine has more hardware attached (audio interface, MIDI interface, possibly one or more dongles or other USB devices, etc) than an email machine, which often has no external peripherals, or maybe just a hard drive.

ES2 would have been a prime thing to update in over the past 3/4 of a decade - while many new virtual instruments have come out, or been updated.

To be honest, there is one update that I wish the ES2 would be given: an arpeggiator and/or step sequencer. If it had a nice modern arp, and a step sequencer along the lines of the new Ultrabeat sequencer, I think that would add some functionality that I would enjoy.

PS - I bet you are not happy about the fact that the Japanese fleet left yesterday to start hunting Humpback Whales again for the first time in 40 years. I saw a baby humpback whale at a sea park one time, and it was amazing.

Boy, I am sure with you (both) on that one...when I am elected King of America (in more than my paranoid fantasies, at least ) I will not send the US Military on missions to conquer other nations, but I will not hesitate to send the US Navy up to the arctic to defend whales, and generally use our forces to protect as much of our natural world, both animal and mineral, as we have not destroyed.

Orren

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

*sits back reading this thread, watching as the prices of hardware synths fall while everybody invests more time and money into software*

We can only hope DC, we can only hope.

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

We can only hope DC, we can only hope.

I personally can't wait. I love the smell of vintage synths in the morning.

I'm honestly thinking that we're going to see a decline in interest in vintage synths in the next few years (but perhaps not a price decrease) because many people aren't going to want to put up with the maintenance issues of many of them.

[Orren]

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

*sits back reading this thread, watching as the prices of hardware synths fall while everybody invests more time and money into software*

Speak for yourself, my DSI Prophet '08 should arrive tomorrow!!

Orren

[Orren]

Originally Posted by Tibbon

I'm honestly thinking that we're going to see a decline in interest in vintage synths in the next few years (but perhaps not a price decrease) because many people aren't going to want to put up with the maintenance issues of many of them.

I think you're right. However, I would add that the market for modern, more reliable instruments that are both analogs (pun intended ) to old instruments, but at the same time, their own thing. The examples I can think of are the Prophet '08 (and to some degree, the Evolver, which I also own), and the Moog instruments (Voyager and Little Phatty). These instruments are doing very well for their little sub-market (meaning, compared to the toy Yamahas in Wal-Mart, they're not a blip, but among semi-pro and pro electronica/industrial musicians, they're doing well).

Some of that market is "fetish"—people who just prefer analog, having a 1:1 relationship between the parameter and the knob on the keyboard, etc. But some is people who feel that hardware fits their workflow better, especially with modern DAWs often allowing hardware MIDI to be used directly on an instrument track (I believe that Logic, Cubase, and Sonar all have their version of the "external instrument" in Logic). So while the vintage market fades, and the market for hardware among professionals shrink, I think there will always be a place for hardware synths. Unlike hardware samplers, which I can honestly see vanishing entirely, being replaced by things like the Muse Receptor.

And to bring this back to the ES2, it gives me a far more digital sound than either my Poly Evolver Rack does, or my Prophet '08 will, so there's still a place for it in my songwriting.

Orren

[Phaidon]

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

And my two cents: software samplers suck. Hardware all the way, BOI!!!

Amen!!Man,so many of my mates are trying to buy back Akai S5/6Ks...
it's no joke!

Phaidon

[Orren]

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

So if I'm reading that correctly, it integrates the instrument into the track as if it were a virtual instrument?

Yes and no.

There is no editor or software editing for the instrument. It is just a simple "I/O plug-in" that allows you to have both the MIDI data you are sending to a hardware instrument, and the outputs from that hardware instrument, to be on the same track.

What's the point in that?

It's a wonderful organizational plug-in. It means that you don't need to have a separate track for MIDI data, and then a separate "return track" for the audio data. It's all kept very tidy.

Is this like how some of the newer synths can be controlled as if it were a VSTi

No.

Point being: hardware synths are a dying breed because all of the up and comers enjoy the cheapness and ease of use of the software set.

The market is definitely retracting, but there's a difference between a market adjusting to being smaller and a market dying. The sampler market is dying, not just because few customers are looking for them, but few companies are still making them. Korg, Roland, Yamaha, and the niche players are still making hardware instruments, and they are still selling in droves, even if not the mega-droves they used to. I firmly believe that the market for hardware synthesizers will reach an equilibrium that will be far less than the pre-softsynth days, but will not vanish.

And my two cents: software samplers suck. Hardware all the way, BOI!!!

Doesn't that all depend on which RAM chips the hardware sampler uses? I hear that Samsung DIMMs have that warm, analog sound...

Orren

[halfguard]

i was at the banjo center this weekend and i gotta say that i was drooling over the new prophet....however, i am also using the demo of the the arturia jp8 and that thing is very nice...so, they are good in both...................on a side note, which of the logic instruments do you guys use most. i just bought logic (should get it today) so im curious as to which instruments are the best.......

[grantlandau]

Originally Posted by halfguard

i was at the banjo center this weekend and i gotta say that i was drooling over the new prophet....however, i am also using the demo the the arturia jp8 and that thing very nice...so, they are good in both...................on a side note, which of the logic instruments do you guys use most. i just bought logic (should get it today) so im curious as to which instruments are the best.......

sometimes I take the ES M or ES 1 over my micromoog cuz its actually in tune ..and it sounds pretty good.

Ultrabeat gets the most use on our end. Great sound. I still love my software samplers!

I never use sculpture. Its really cool, but I just never use it. I've only found one practical application in a recording project thus far.

EVP88 is great when you first get it. But since have acquired a Rhodes Mark I and a Wurly 200A and I haven' t looked back, no comparison. I still use it if I need to track crazy parts (lots of notes/outside the practical range/etc.) I guess you could say that's what happened with the ES2. EVB3 is nice too but my growing organ collection also put that under the table.

I've pretty much stopped using the ESX24. Another good old friend going back to the days of logic 4. Stopped using since I got Kontakt and Ultrabeat.

I guess the moral of the story is the logic synths are very useful and sound pretty good. Once you get hardware equivalents of their AU's, then you really never look back. But that's kind of the obvious trend in this thread. Overall fav's: Ultrabeat, ES1 (for bass), ES M (for bass).

[gregohb]

Originally Posted by Orren

God help me, I think I'm going to agree with you quite a bit in this post.

No harm in that GMTA.

Originally Posted by Orren

I think my experience with the same computer mirrors yours. Let me just be more specific. The UI/UE (user experience) Logic 8 on my Mac Pro (also Quad 2.6) doesn't seem any faster than Logic 7 on my old G5 2x2GHz. On the other hand, it has a lot more juice available for plug-ins.

I'll be honest; I was expecting a major jump in GUI speed with Logic 8, and we didn't get it. To me, that's a significant disappointment.

I am glad to get the confirmation. It probably cost me $1500 difference in selling my G5 to get the intel - and I expected something positive out of it (other than the fact that the G5 is now dead end architecture). The only thing different on my part is that I had to chuck my older acrylic 22" cinema display and I went to a 30" (in both cases with a second 19" monitor), and I wonder if the graphics duties are causing bog downs.

Originally Posted by Orren

OTOH, realistically I know that there's a lot more UI elements, all of which are real-time manipulatable, on the Logic 8 GUI. I wonder if it were possible to reduce the Logic 8 GUI down to that of Logic 7 (only one channel in the inspector, no library/list section, task bar, no editor pane, etc) if it would be quicker. But we could never really do that.

I was also expecting an instant speed increase with Leopard, since I know that with Leopard, the facility exists to move more of the GUI of Cocoa UIs to the graphics card...

I am not sure that the additional window items makes much difference. The way that object oriented programing works, is that each object (e.g. a button or meter, has a "fire" event - so they dont do much unless they are awakened by the user or the program actually activating them. Things like menus (e.g. changing the snap mode or tool type) are items built into the OS and already optimized to run fast. You can tell the additional channel strip doesn't bog it down too much because Logic doesn't seem to run slower when you have the mixer window open with dozens of meters. As for the strip at the bottom, those number are being computed internally anyway when the program is running, so it doesn't take too much power away to report them.

Originally Posted by Orren

Actually, I've had my Mac Pro for about four months, and it's never had a Kernel Panic, and I think maybe one freeze.

In two months I have had one panic and maybe two freezes, plus a dozen programs have crashed - including Logic Studio, TechtoolPro 4, and Photoshop (run off of an entirely separate internal boot disk)

Originally Posted by Orren

To be honest, there is one update that I wish the ES2 would be given: an arpeggiator and/or step sequencer. If it had a nice modern arp, and a step sequencer along the lines of the new Ultrabeat sequencer, I think that would add some functionality that I would enjoy.

Maybe Apple would be to make a consistent arp interface to be used on ultrabeat, es1, es2, the various other little analogish/fm synths they make. One of the good things about the Logic plugs is the side-chain feature which is present in a number but not al of their plugs and add an additional feature that many commericial VI's don't have.

Originally Posted by Orren

Boy, I am sure with you (both) on that one...when I am elected King of America (in more than my paranoid fantasies, at least ) I will not send the US Military on missions to conquer other nations, but I will not hesitate to send the US Navy up to the arctic to defend whales, and generally use our forces to protect as much of our natural world, both animal and mineral, as we have not destroyed.

If you go to Youtube there are some graphic videos of dolphins being hearded into bays and slaughtered until the water turns red - then later the meat is shown in plastic wrap in grocery stores. Whale meat is considered a rare delicacy and I recall seeing whale meat being advertised as being sold at certain upscale Tokyo restaurants. But it may have been "only" dolphin meat. However, the videos of american farms - cutting the throats of pigs and cows, and electrocuting foxes for their fur by sticking an electrode up their keisters are not much more appealing.

[Orren]

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

That seems just a bit counter-intuitive to me. What if you want to use the same MIDI track to track the same synth over again but with a slight pitch difference for detuning effects or to try a different filtering setup? Then you have to create an entirely new track and copy over the MIDI vs. just making another audio track and routing the audio to it.

Well, as you know, terms like "intuitive" are completely depending on the "intuit-or" To me, it's very intuitive that if I want to send MIDI to an instrument—be it one residing inside my Mac Pro, or outside of it—I would play into that track, and then hear audio from that track.

As for the above scenario, in Logic, you can still do that very intuitively by the way. You wouldn't need to copy over the MIDI. You would do exactly what you said. Leave the instrument channel alone, and simply create a new audio track, and route the audio to it. The instrument track would play the MIDI into the instrument, just as before, and the audio track would accept the new routing. The only difference is that in your example, the mixer would contain three tracks: MIDI 1 (MIDI to instrument), Audio 1(synth outputs inital pass), Audio 2 (synth outputs secondary pass), and in my Example, it contains two: Instrument 1 (MIDI to instrument, live audio), Audio 1 (synth outputs recorded pass).

The market will die.

If it doesn't, will you give me ten bucks?

Software samplers just don't sit well with me because if you really break it down, it's not a true sampler.

Sure, but if you want to really make field recordings, nothing beats having one of those tiny little digital recorders and then offloading it via USB anyway. That said, if you want hardware samplers, by all means, go for it. I've got great amp modeling software and with enough tweaking I can build myself one hell of a guitar amp rig in software, but I've still got multiple hardware amps. So I understand having individual taste regarding tone.

Orren

[Orren]

Originally Posted by gregohb

I am glad to get the confirmation. It probably cost me $1500 difference in selling my G5 to get the intel - and I expected something positive out of it (other than the fact that the G5 is now dead end architecture). The only thing different on my part is that I had to chuck my older acrylic 22" cinema display and I went to a 30" (in both cases with a second 19" monitor), and I wonder if the graphics duties are causing bog downs.

I have a dual monitor setup also (two Dell 19" LCDs), and I do think that dual monitors take a heavier toll than single monitors. I've got the same number of pixels as a single 30", but people I know with single 30" monitors seem to have faster performance than I do. Hmmm...

Maybe Apple would be to make a consistent arp interface to be used on ultrabeat, es1, es2, the various other little analogish/fm synths they make.

That's a great idea! One of my beefs is the fact that there isn't too much consistency among plug-in UIs, and having a consistent arp on all of them would be a good step. Adding Ultrabeat's step sequencer (in full view) would be another nice addition!

Of course, I've been pulling for real MIDI plug-ins for MIDI/Instrument tracks for years now, so that will show you how much they listen to me...

Orren

[gregohb]

Originally Posted by Orren

Of course, I've been pulling for real MIDI plug-ins for MIDI/Instrument tracks for years now, so that will show you how much they listen to me...

Thats an interesting idea. How would that work? Would there be a new class of plugins which only performed midi operations? Logic already has three things in that vein :
- the transform window (*)
- the extended non-destructive midi parameters
- the environment patches (e.g. Welcome to Swiftkick) - but this functionality may be on the way out

* (I have long wished they would expand the transform window. I don't think it has changed much in 10 years. I tried in L8, and it seemed to work more reliably now and look a little nicer.)

[Orren]

Originally Posted by gregohb

Thats an interesting idea. How would that work? Would there be a new class of plugins which only performed midi operations?

In my dream world, basically, yes. MIDI/Software Instrument tracks would allow you to add "plug-ins" the same way that channel strips have Insert slots for audio plug-ins. MIDI plug-ins would encompass things like arpeggiators, step sequencers, MIDI delays, transformers, chord memorizers, etc. Of course, lots of applications (Sonar, Digital Performer, Cubase, Nuendo) have MIDI plug-ins.

But where I think Logic could really excel is if the Environment then added a "Create as MIDI plug-in" command. That way, unlike other applications, if you make some wild and crazy MIDI creations in the Environment, you could then have them available as MIDI plug-ins. This would mean that people who want to play around in the Environment would be able to, and then have those constructions available, but people who don't would have a collection of easy-to-insert MIDI functions without ever having to worry about it. (and users who really enjoy cabling Environment constructions to instruments and channels still could; nothing would be removed, only this would be added).

Take care,
Orren

[gregohb]

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

*sits back reading this thread, watching as the prices of hardware synths fall while everybody invests more time and money into software*

Are you also expecting the hardware compressors, preamps, and expensive mics to fall in value - and the vintage guitars and amps? There are some great re-creations of the Neves, Fairchilds, 1176's, SSL's, Marshalls, Voxs, etc. But that doesn't seem to have killed the hardware market for those.

I still hang on to an Access Virus, Novation Nova, and Kurzweil. To me they sound better for anything remotely analogish than softsynths. Also, I find Logic runs smoother without crashing if its more audio tracks and less virtual synths. I wish Logic would have a numerical "score" for how much each plugin takes from CPU cycles, but it seems that the VI's are CPU hogs. I also like to tweak the knobs. Thats why analog came back was those filter sweeps. There is something much more immediate about tweaking a real knob rather than a virtual one.

I still have a bunch of virtual instruments - things like FM7/8, Absynth, Zebra, etc - have some cool digital sounds that complement the analogish stuff.

[gregohb]

Originally Posted by Orren

basically, yes. MIDI/Software Instrument tracks would allow you to add "plug-ins" the same way that channel strips have Insert slots for audio plug-ins. MIDI plug-ins would encompass things like arpeggiators, step sequencers, MIDI delays, transformers, chord memorizers, etc.

But some of those things are more of note generators - rather than note processors. I can see that you play a chord on your keyboard, then the arp plug uses one of several algorithms to break the chord up into an arp (up, down, updown, most recent, random, chord block, etc.)

But a generic step seq - which would be really great (ala Reason) - would be a source for notes. Maybe there needs to be a new item on midi tracks - either midi channels (as is now) or an internal midi generator - that might be a step sequencer or something that would then play through to real midi instruments or virtual instruments via some sort of cabling/side-chain arrangement.

Originally Posted by Orren

Of course, lots of applications (Sonar, Digital Performer, Cubase, Nuendo) have MIDI plug-ins.

I did not know that. What do they do?

Originally Posted by Orren

But where I think Logic could really excel is if the Environment then added a "Create as MIDI plug-in" command. That way, unlike other applications, if you make some wild and crazy MIDI creations in the Environment, you could then have them available as MIDI plug-ins. This would mean that people who want to play around in the Environment would be able to, and then have those constructions available, but people who don't would have a collection of easy-to-insert MIDI functions without ever having to worry about it. (and users who really enjoy cabling Environment constructions to instruments and channels still could; nothing would be removed, only this would be added).

Excellent idea. I think Photoshop used to have a "create a plugin" feature at one time too. So it would be like that. In fact, why not do that for audio plugs as well. String together a frequency splitter, separate compressors for each band, distortion for each band, a mixer item. And voila - call it "MyPlug01" and its in your system for ever, and you can send it to your friends in some way too.

Maybe the Logic environment modules could be packaged as complete units. I think you can do that in Reaktor or Max. Then they could be distributed, or even sold. I know you can do that now - but it involves copying and pasting and the possibilty of disrupting things.

It would be great with midi though - because say you have a transposer, and a arp, a velocity compressor, ... and you cable these little modules into a mega-module and save it.

[gregohb]

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

Okay, in all honesty, I have to admit Logic's superiority in a LOT of aspects, but not having MIDI plug-ins? That's just an odd one to me.

Each thing has its pluses and minuses. I like Logic for its midi (albeit with the primitive transform window). But I heard Nuendo is much better for audio. Ableton Live has the warp feature which is very cool too. The audio window in Logic is little changed in 10 years - they seem to have not even bothered to update it much, and just packaged Soundtrack Pro with Logic as a side product. Protools allows "takes" - although L8 claims to have that feature too, I haven't tried it yet.

[Popbott]

dfegad

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

As for you and your Prophet, you do realize that you are a minority in getting one of those now, right? The new synths will always be pricey...

Point being: hardware synths are a dying breed because all of the up and comers enjoy the cheapness and ease of use of the software set.

"The simple minded are simply amused". What Minority? Stick to your Alesis Ion buddy, you will never be able to hang with the big boys anyhow.

*Surprised, Devine Chemical gets up in anger and trips as he scrambles to find his lost rubber cock remembering it's in his mom's a--.* Arf"Arf"fuuck

Where is the white Spice Kitty pic? I miss kitty...

[Orren]

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

Okay, in all honesty, I have to admit Logic's superiority in a LOT of aspects, but not having MIDI plug-ins? That's just an odd one to me.

The thing is, all have these sort of "odd" absences. To this day, you can't Loop in Cubase. Such a basic feature, to set a region to loop. Every other application can loop. Every one. But their idea was that you could do the same thing via "ghost copies" (aliases in Logic), so who needs loops?

I'm sure all the others have something similar.

Orren

[robd]

Have you guys tried plogue bidule? It's pretty cheap, and it makes it really easy to do all the midi plugin stuff you're talking about. It runs as a plugin, and it's midi processing capabilities are extensive. You could also do that thing you were suggesting with the band split, separate distortion, etc. really easily, as it works as a vst and au host as well as a client. I tend to use it for all my midi routing through my midi interface just because it's a lot simpler to use it than logic's environment.
Also, I have to say, with respect to the new prophet, that it's not that expensive. I realize that there isn't necessarily a huge overlap between serious instrumentalists and even very good electronic composers, but, among people who play instruments even moderately seriously, $2k is not a lot to pay for a good instrument, even for electrics, and acoustic instruments tend to be a lot more expensive.

BTW: one of the things I like about this site, in general, is that everyone from the "big boys" to people who are just starting out can come here and chat, and usually keep the tone reasonably civil. While people getting a little bit snippy from time to time is inevitable, and I admit to having done it myself, if you want to fling around gratuitous insults, there is no shortage of places you can go to do it in this gigantic festering cesspit called the internet that aren't gearslutz.

[gregohb]

Originally Posted by robd

Have you guys tried plogue bidule? It's pretty cheap, and it makes it really easy to do all the midi plugin stuff you're talking about. It runs as a plugin, and it's midi processing capabilities are extensive. You could also do that thing you were suggesting with the band split, separate distortion, etc. really easily, as it works as a vst and au host as well as a client. I tend to use it for all my midi routing through my midi interface just because it's a lot simpler to use it than logic's environment.

What else can it do? I thought it allows you to make your own plugins (like Audio Units).

[robd]

Plogue is not yet quite as deep as, say, max, but, IMHO it is much easier to use. You can do a whole lot with it. It doesn't, as far as I know, let you make your own plugins like pluggo, that can be run even without the parent software, but it does run as a plugin, so any patch you make in plogue can be saved and run as a plugin by anyone who has plogue.

[Frank1]

I have not found a replacement for the ES2, but more so, for the ES M and ES P. I have used those for years and really miss them in the PC world. I never found the ES 2 particularly appealing, and was never really able to use it in mixes, but the M and the P have been invaluable, especially for trance / dance.

I find the free Tubeohm A-Trans somewhat similar to the ES M, but it's by no means an exact replacement.

Perhaps does anyone have sampled waveforms from the ES M and the ES P? Perhaps that would already be half the rent.

[AcoosticZoo]

no two synths sound alike imho. But i can appreciate why you enjoyed the sound of logic's ES2.

Sterile isn't ES2 but you have to add shaping and effects externally. If you bypass the effects on most software synths, they will too sound sterile. Hence the split feedback from users.

Kind Regards
Josef Horhay
Mixing Engineer
www.acoosticzoo.com