Good program for songwriting needed

[dewey decibel]

Hi, first post here and I'm looking for some advice (yeah, another one of those )...

First off, all this will probably be run on a Macbook.

I'm looking to get a decent DAW mainly for songwriting. I've recently started working with a group again and have an outlet for songs now, so I'm looking to get back in the game. Group is sort of electro-pop, with heavy funk and disco influences.

I'm more of an analog/audio guy, and most of my prior experience is with real instruments, so the program(s) will need to be decent at tracking/working with live audio, too. But keep in mind the group has a little studio running PT and I can track stuff there, so most of the live audio tracks will probably be scratch/ruff. But I'm really excited to get into the world of software instruments, beats and loops, and with electronic music it seems often what you're using to write with will end up in the final, so the program should be fully capable.


Here's what I want to be able to do-

Make beats with both real and electronic sounding drums

Cut up drum loops and samples pulled from vinyl, CD, etc

Access to decent soft synths, keys sounds, etc.

Abilty to tweak sounds/samples to get my own thing

Easily sequence parts/loops to arrange a tune

The sounds I'm into mostly are classic early '80s, late '70s sounds. But again, I'm not looking to be totally authentic, that's just where I lean. I mean I'll be happy with just a good sound, rather than an authentic sound.

Again, I'm more of a songwriter in the classic sense, but the couple times I've worked with loops I've really dug it. I have experience with various DAWs, but with loops/beats always with someone else at the controls, so not enough experience to make an informed decision. Everybody I know for the most part points me to whatever they use, and it seems like most anything will be able to do what I require. Right now I'm leaning towards Ableton Live 6, which is about $300 for the academic version (which I'm told is the same as the retail version, and fully upgradeable). Oh yeah, I forgot to mention I'm broke...

Another option is DP 5, which is about the same price as Live for the academic version, but I have no experience at all with it and I'm not sure if the academic version is the same as the retail.

Logic- well, costs too much. And the academic version isn't upgradeable. The lite version is still on the table, though.

PTLE- I have to admit, the fact that I can get an MBox 2 with PTLE and a bunch of other lite programs for a really low price is pretty tempting, as well as the fact that it's what the group's studio uses, but I don't know, something about it rubs me the wrong way.

Oh yeah, I do like Reason a lot. But I feel like I need something "more" than that, then what it's capable of in terms of sequencing. My first thought was to use Reason into Garageband, but as far as I know Reason won't Rewire to GB (but aparently Live 6 will).

Anyway, I had a free version of Cubase way back and didn't get very far, but maybe willing to try it again. I have Audacity and N-Track on my computer and have used them a bunch, but they're super easy, and I haven't used any midi programing or soft synths with them. I've also done a bunch of drum programing (the little Boss machines and an ASR-X Pro) so I'm not completely new to that. Yeah, I was pretty mean with a drum machine and a Tascam 4 track.


Another thing- I'm also looking at midi controllers/keyboards, and many of them come with software, similar to the PTLE Iginition Pack. Anyway, is this "lite" software even useable? I'm looking at the Korg Microkontrol, which comes with Reason Adapted, lite versions of Sampletank, MDE-X, UVI, etc which seems pretty cool. Getting that and the full version of Live 6 seems like a good start. and then there's PT's Igintion Pack with Reason, BFD lite and Melodyne (damn!). I'm thinking, "Lite beer doesn't taste that great, but you can still get a buzz from it." Is it the same with software? If they're useless programs please just tell me now and I'll try and get that idea out of my system...


All advice appreciated, thanks in advance!

[detritusdave]

Live would be a good option I think...

I used it for composition until very recently, when I moved to Logic. I still kind of miss the 'quickness' of Live, tho.... I moved over for the midi handling in Logic, and also as the summing in Live sounded a little bit 'dead' compared to when I summed in Logic (although I expect I'll get some stick for saying that).....

[peeder]

The biggest problem I had with live was the inability to change time signatures. Maybe I'm an oddball. But using the 1/1 workaround or something was too much to ask. This should have been a part of the original spec.

Live is geared toward spinner types, but it's not a bad program at all. If you can live with its limitations.

[Popbott]

Originally Posted by dewey decibel

"But keep in mind the group has a little studio running PT and I can track stuff there"

"I'm really excited to get into the world of software instruments, beats and loops, and with electronic music"

"I'm more of a songwriter in the classic sense"

"I forgot to mention I'm broke..."

"PTLE- I have to admit.....something about it rubs me the wrong way."

"Oh yeah, I do like Reason a lot. But I feel like I need something more"

"All advice appreciated, thanks in advance!"

On Software: For your needs, I think you need to take a closer look at Propellerheads Reason again.It sounds like Reason is in your budget and seems to fit all of your needs. It also integrates seamlessly into Protools. And why you would not choose to use Protools when your own band uses this format will only create more problems for you in the end. tutt

Everyone has their preferred DAW, IMO no other company has done what Digidesign has done in terms of creating superior sound quality in a digital environment that can match Protools HD. You can always track everything using the less expensive Protools LE version and go mix in a studio with HD…and be compatible with your band. The ignition packs are very usable and give you a chance to preview the programs in the PT working environment.

In Closing: I can walk into any studio environment and come out with something that uniquely sounds like me -using any program. As a songwriter, it should not be about the sequencer, it’s the person behind that sequencer that makes it happen. It's a great time to be a musician, more so than it was just 10 years ago! Have faith in your abilities as a musician /songwriter and you should succeed in any format.

[dewey decibel]

Thanks for the responses...

...and also as the summing in Live sounded a little bit 'dead' compared to when I summed in Logic (although I expect I'll get some stick for saying that).....

I've done a lot of searches on various forums and your not the first to say that.

The biggest problem I had with live was the inability to change time signatures. Maybe I'm an oddball. But using the 1/1 workaround or something was too much to ask. This should have been a part of the original spec.

You mean something like verse in 4/4 and bridge in 3/4? Hmmmm, that's something I don't see as being a big issue for me and the music I want to do, but then again I haven't worked with loops too much before.

Live is geared toward spinner types, but it's not a bad program at all. If you can live with its limitations.

That's mainly my concern- most of the guys I know that use it are DJs or hip hop guys- I only know 2 cats personally that use it as a writing tool in the way I would, but they have other DAWs they bounce to. But people on the net say that you can use Live 6 for everything.

If I had the time I'd download a bunch of free versions of these different programs and play around with them, but I really just want to get started. It's all somewhat new to me, and anything I try is going to take a minute to learn- I'd rather just pick 1 thing and go with it. My basic plan right now is to get Live 6 and work with it, and if I need something bigger for mixing/sequencing and doing more live audio tracks then move up from there. But who knows- maybe Garageband will do everything I need?

[dewey decibel]

On Software: For your needs, I think you need to take a closer look at Propellerheads Reason again.It sounds like Reason is in your budget and seems to fit all of your needs. It also integrates seamlessly into Protools. And why you would not choose to use Protools when your own band uses this format will only create more problems for you in the end. tutt

But with Reason -correct me if I'm wrong- you can't record any live audio. Like I said, I do like Reason a lot, and Reason and PTLE sounds cool, but then I'm out $300-400 for the PTLE and $200 for Reason academic. That's not a whole lot, but I'm already reaching just to get the $300 I might flip on Ableton.

And yeah, because they use PT it would be a good idea to get it, but I mainly want to make good sounding demos, and then just throw the couple main tracks (like drums/percussion, maybe some software sounds) into the group's system and retrack the rest. Or just use the midi tracks with other samples. That can be done with most any software, correct?

The ignition packs are very usable and give you a chance to preview the programs in the PT working environment.

OK, that's a plus for the Mbox and LE.

In Closing: I can walk into any studio environment and come out with something that uniquely sounds like me -using any program. As a songwriter, it should not be about the sequencer, it’s the person behind that sequencer that makes it happen. It's a great time to be a musician, more so than it was just 10 years ago! Have faith in your abilities as a musician /songwriter and you should succeed in any format.

Don't worry, I feel the same way. But you do have to start somewhere...

[dewey decibel]

Okay- here's a bump.

Can I get everything I want with Ableton? Is it good for arranging and putting a song together?

Or do I need to go with PTLE and maybe Reason?

Any other thoughts?

[sweetjesus]

myspace.com/pivotsound

i make everything in live exclusively using just one or two synths.

[Tibbon]

I'm going to recommend Live or Logic Express (since you say the $500 for LP is too much). Keep in mind that you can find LP7 Academic for around $300 on the used market. It's not upgradable, but what are you upgrading to? LP7's featureset is fine for any student. There's nothing in LP8 that's a 'must have professional need' that a student needs. Then again, Logic Express will probably suit most of your needs pretty well too.

Live is good generally, but it does have it's quirks that I don't like.

One thing to mention, is that if you're getting into recording more seriously keep in mind that this is going to cost money. Probably lots of it. This isn't a cheap hobby by any stretch.

At the same time, I might encourage you to ask yourself what you can't do with your Tascam 4 track. Yes, that sounds stupid to some here. If you're a songwriter, what can't you fit onto 4 tracks? If you're an engineer/producer/performer and are looking for high quality stuff, and not just songwriting demos, then I could see the need for more. But if you're already good at doing that, then why not keep with it. When you write really good songs that you know are worth it, then go to a big studio (or even mid sized studio) and record the song professionally again.

I'm thinking if you've gone beyond 4 tracks + bouncing, then you're probably not just writing songs anymore.

[lazzaro]

According to this article:

Donald Fagen

Donald Fagan did the songwriting demos for his last solo
album (Morph the Cat) in Garage Band. I could see how
the benefits of "simple is best" outweigh the limitations.

For me, the biggest one would be the lack of a tempo map,
I like to vary tempos within songs, and it can be tough to
evaluate how a song is working if you can't hear it at the
tempo you want to hear it at.

[dewey decibel]

Thanks again for the responses.

myspace.com/pivotsound

i make everything in live exclusively using just one or two synths.

Sounds cool, thanks.

So you're a student?

No, I'm not. I'm a musician. And before somebody gives me the morality speech about using academic software I'm aware of all that and I'm OK with it. I've been a student and never bought any software on a discount then. My father's a teacher and I have two brothers going to college full time. Sorry, but I ain't going to feel bad about it. OK, you can give me the speech now...

One thing to mention, is that if you're getting into recording more seriously keep in mind that this is going to cost money. Probably lots of it. This isn't a cheap hobby by any stretch.

Well aware of that. Like I said, I'm looking just to get a decent songwriting rig, but something that is capable of more if need be. i'm aware that even this can be expensive. My main plan right now is to not even get an IO yet, just a midi controller and some software. Like I said, the guitar/bass/vocal tracks are going to be scratch anyway, and I can get decent enough results for that through my POD and the built in soundcard.

At the same time, I might encourage you to ask yourself what you can't do with your Tascam 4 track.

Well, first thought is I can't do anything with it as I haven't had it for about 7 years. But the main thing is I want to be able to do and create things not possible with just a 4 track. I want to be able to use and create the sounds of gear I don't have access to- especially with percussion. I don't have a kit, and I want to be able to make and tweak and scramble all different kinds of loops.

I'd love to be able to have all the analog stuff right here, and just pipe it into a multitracker, but that's just not possible. I want a program that has some decent sounds on it, but also (more importantly) the ability to make some of my own sounds. Like I said, I'm after good sounds, but not necessarily accurate sounds. Basically- I'm confident I can get usable sounds out of anything, I've always been that way. Otherwise I'd go for Logic Pro as it seems to come bundled with the best instruments.

Besides that, I want more than 4 tracks. I'd routinely go 10 or 12 on the 4 track (by bouncing down). While I said "songwriting" I guess I meant "demo"- something where I can have a fully fleshed out thing and then go and redo whatever needs it.

For me, the biggest one would be the lack of a tempo map,
I like to vary tempos within songs, and it can be tough to
evaluate how a song is working if you can't hear it at the
tempo you want to hear it at.

I'm confussed here. I've been watching the demos online and it seems like this is something you can do with a workaround, but I'm not sure.




Anyway, I've been watching onl;ine demos for a bunch of different programs, and I'm still leaning towards Live. When I watch it just makes sense to me, and seems much more conducive to quickly getting ideas out and playing around with them. My main worry is that it's not as effective in the linear sense- laying out an arrangement, but so far in the demos and articles I've read it seems quite capable. As far as the standard multitrack goes I also like what I've seen from DP 5- it seems much more intuitive to me than Logic.

BTW, I also found out that Garageband 3 does Rewire both Live and Reason, if anyone cares.

GarageBand 3.0 Help: Using ReWire applications with GarageBand

[lazzaro]

Originally Posted by dewey decibel

Thanks again for the responses.

I'm confussed here. I've been watching the demos online and it seems like this is something you can do with a workaround, but I'm not sure.

If the goal here is to use the full power of Garageband with
respect to tempos (i.e. changing the tempo and having the
Apple Loops change tempo without varying the pitch), then
the only workaround for handling a multi-tempo song is to
have several separate projects, one per tempo, and then
render each one to a separate AIFF file. Then, to complete
the song, create a new Garageband project, load all of the
AIFF files in, and abut them.

Of course, there's always the option of just treating
Garageband as a MIDI and audio tape recorder, and
ignoring its tempo control entirely. Assuming you want
to cut to a (time-varying) click, then your only problem is
how to create the MIDI file with the time-varying click to
import into Garageband (personally I'd write a C program
to generate the C file, but that's probably not the solution
for everyone :-).

As an aside, according to this interview:

Performing Songwriter

Suzanne Vega did the songwriter demos for her latest album
in Garageband also ...

[stevelibby3]

Yes Logic Pro is a little pricey...but you get what you pay for... The sound quality of Reason or Live will not compare to Logic, not to mention...you get a bundle of synths and samples that sound amazing. If you for instance, bought Live, you'd end up wanting a lot of 3rd party softsynths, such as Native Instruments...in turn, spending over a grand anyway...

I think you'll be happy with your purchase if you go that direction, or a good alternative might be Cubase... I think if there was no Logic, that's the program I'd be working with.