nearly in tears with timing

[ghostdog]

hi all

I am using Cubase SX with my Dell Inspiron 8600 2Ghz 2gig ram, Digirgam VXpocket soundcard and Edirol keyboard controller. I am using usb to the edirol......I am nearly in tears over the timing troubles i am having trying to get a basic beat happening, obviously it is possible as people are still releasing records, but nothing is like my old Atari 1040ste and Akai 3200XL sampler ( I dont own them anymore)
I use to be able to get a cool beat happening ten years ago in seconds now I have to try and get the timing right in the SX editor....should I get an external midi i/o?....

maybe its just my set up is missing that...i do intend to get an Andromeda A6 and CODE in the future, but obviously want to get some tight beats first

[earlgreen]

Hey there,

I don't use your setup, I use Sonar, but I have to adjust the latency when trying to use my usb MAudio Pro Key 88.

Check to see if there is a place in Cubase to change the settings to reduce latency. It may be under the audio settings section. If I want to use the keyboard to input midi, then I have to be sure to change the settings from when I want to just record audio.

Have you tried to go to Cubase website and check out their forum? Just a thought.

Wish I knew more about it!

Hope that helps.

[Reptil]

I take it you guys are using the USB side of these controllers?
My pro keystation 88 is on midi
there's not a lot of gear that uses the USB port successfully
that and a good midi interface (AMT8) is workable
still is less tight than the serial port on my old mac with a unitor 8 mk1
and also less tight than the Atari I got to work on a few times
so... get a good midi interface that works with the steinberg software
I heard some good things about the midex 8
good luck

[Prahlad]

second that, you can also get the midex 3 used on ebay at times, 1 in 3 out, turn on system time stamp in midi options...

instead of using the editor to tweak the rythym, hard quantize everything, make separate midi tracks for each sound and use the time slide in the inspector, if you hold shift i think it switches into fine mode, get ur groove happenng there :)

good luck

Prahlad

[Prahlad]

ok I know this will cause a lot of people to frown, but I ve recently learned that when sequencing in Cubase/Nuendo drums tracks sound MUCH tighter and constant when sequenced in as audio clips in the arrangement, instead f leaving MIDI notes going into Battery etc. Don't ask me why, just try it, it makes a huge difference....

[Ged Leitch]

Prahlad can you elaborate on this way of working please???

Genuinely curious - (I use Battery and notice slack timing when using midi)

[jbuehler]

I have talked about my MIDI issues with USB around here and people laughed at me saying USB was plenty.

I don't know what to think.

Don't most MIDI interfaces use USB to reach the computer? So even if you use the MIDI output on your keyboard it is still using the USB cable right?

I always figured a PCI Midi Interface would be the cream because I used to use a PCI soundcard and MIDI was MUCH MUCH faster than with my Firewire Digi003.

[Ged Leitch]

I just got an M-audio UNO USB connected to my MicroKorg >PC > running Cubase SX 2.2.

I havent tested for timing issues yet but did spend about an hour last night scouring GS for tips and did this>>>

Cubase sx > device setup > made active "Use system timestamp"

Seemed to be cool, but really need to try out more tests.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by jbuehler

I have talked about my MIDI issues with USB around here and people laughed at me saying USB was plenty.

I don't know what to think.

Don't most MIDI interfaces use USB to reach the computer? So even if you use the MIDI output on your keyboard it is still using the USB cable right?

I always figured a PCI Midi Interface would be the cream because I used to use a PCI soundcard and MIDI was MUCH MUCH faster than with my Firewire Digi003.

the problem IS USB. it was intended for periferal devices, mouse, printer, photocamera etc. There's plenty of space for those few midi notes, the problem is that the USB is not keeping exact timing if there's not some USB protocol in place. (it just sends a packet when it's not busy) Emagic sorted this succesfully with their AMT, Cubase also has one. M-audio keystation doesn't.
When I tried the USB on the Keystation, it wasn't that bad. But it had an USB port (on a seperate PCI interface) all for itself.
Still USB is way less tight as Atari (which had midi chip on the motherboard) and the serial port.
Hope this clears up a bit of the mist.

[a long]

for every problem there is an easy solution !

vemberaudio.se - shortcircuit

Originally Posted by ghostdog

hi all

I am using Cubase SX with my Dell Inspiron 8600 2Ghz 2gig ram, Digirgam VXpocket soundcard and Edirol keyboard controller. I am using usb to the edirol......I am nearly in tears over the timing troubles i am having trying to get a basic beat happening, obviously it is possible as people are still releasing records, but nothing is like my old Atari 1040ste and Akai 3200XL sampler ( I dont own them anymore)
I use to be able to get a cool beat happening ten years ago in seconds now I have to try and get the timing right in the SX editor....should I get an external midi i/o?....

maybe its just my set up is missing that...i do intend to get an Andromeda A6 and CODE in the future, but obviously want to get some tight beats first

[Ged Leitch]

Originally Posted by Prahlad

ok I know this will cause a lot of people to frown, but I ve recently learned that when sequencing in Cubase/Nuendo drums tracks sound MUCH tighter and constant when sequenced in as audio clips in the arrangement, instead f leaving MIDI notes going into Battery etc. Don't ask me why, just try it, it makes a huge difference....

Hmmm...just tried it, It DOES sound tighter - everything sounds in the pocket.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

The fact is, if you've had an Atari, you're never going to get your MIDI that tight again. The absolute tightest I have ever gotten out of any DAW was a 4ms drift. ...yet another reason why I'm trying to go back to hardware sequencing.

true. I was freaking out yesterday - got really crazy since the timing wandered
but got the sync with my xbase09 down to 15 samples delay. consistent but once in a while it moves up to 70 or 110 samples too late. which drove me crazy
my Emu is happy stable at 870 samples too late or thereabouts.
I'm a bit funny that way sometimes
to me it's about the groove first details later LOL


but I'm going to look into a doepfer seqencer or that mainekin.
(I hope soon)
the MFB stuff also looks tempting. rough cheap, but maybe nice and tight..
like some girls I know

[Kelly644]

nearly in tears over the timing troubles i am having trying to get a basic beat happening, obviously it is possible as people are still releasing records, but nothing is like my old Atari 1040ste and Akai 3200XL sampler ( I dont own them anymore)

Part of the problem is that you're probably going to notice some sort of timing issues when you compare almost any device to the Atari sequencers.

ok I know this will cause a lot of people to frown, but I ve recently learned that when sequencing in Cubase/Nuendo drums tracks sound MUCH tighter and constant when sequenced in as audio clips in the arrangement, instead f leaving MIDI notes going into Battery etc. Don't ask me why, just try it, it makes a huge difference....

This was a huge problem for me in Nuendo 2.

[synthoid]

Originally Posted by DivineChemical

The fact is, if you've had an Atari, you're never going to get your MIDI that tight again. The absolute tightest I have ever gotten out of any DAW was a 4ms drift. ...yet another reason why I'm trying to go back to hardware sequencing.

I've suffered a lot from MIDI jitter and latency over the years as well, and I stuck with hardware sequencing until very recently because I got around 1ms jitter and very low latency from my MPC4000 (and other good hardware sequencers as well).

However, I have a setup that now measures the same 1ms jitter and very good latency, namely Logic 8 with an RME Fireface as the MIDI interface. The RME docs claim a MIDI jitter of better than 1ms, and I did a bunch of careful measurements to verify it, and I do indeed see this kind of low jitter. So I'm finally happy sequencing my hardware synths from a DAW. I have several Firefaces daisy-chained to give me enough MIDI outs (there are 2 MIDI ins and outs on a FF400 and one in and out on a FF800).

I still love the MPC for its immediacy and tactile feel, and I think the sampler in (Z4) is great, but the fact is that for just plain MIDI sequencing, I'm able to work much faster in Logic now. The editing in Logic is just worlds better than anything on a hardware unit, and now that the timing is excellent it's just not compelling (in my case anyhow) to stick with the hardware unit.


-synthoid

[clusterchord]

so, im speculating, one solution with ATARIs would be to sync it to a DAW via SMPTE i.e. audio, not using MTC/MIDI. i remember ATARI being snced to 24tape or later, to ADATs..

there are units such as steingbergs smp somthin that have smpte i/o, and one thing that DAWs are good for is striping/generating a perfect aligned SMPTE audio track. this should avoid using MIDI on DAW alltogether.

has anyone tried this?


how do ATARIs fare when synced to digital recorders (DAW in this case) via SMPTE ? do the still retain their magical tightness?



if i could sync to DAW without compormising its timing, i'd get ATARI strictly for sequencing MIDI hardware right away..



ah yes, is FALCON as good with timing as 1040ST, pros/cons?

[Reptil]

that is good to know about the jitter on the fireface. going to hook the xbase09 to the fireface right now!
thanks

[Absent1]

Originally Posted by synthoid

I have several Firefaces daisy-chained to give me enough MIDI outs (there are 2 MIDI ins and outs on a FF400 and one in and out on a FF800).
-synthoid

Those end up to be expensive midi chains unless you are using all the ins and outs.

[rasp]

Originally Posted by Prahlad

ok I know this will cause a lot of people to frown, but I ve recently learned that when sequencing in Cubase/Nuendo drums tracks sound MUCH tighter and constant when sequenced in as audio clips in the arrangement, instead f leaving MIDI notes going into Battery etc. Don't ask me why, just try it, it makes a huge difference....

I ALWAYS end up exporting my midi tracks to audio, then lining it up again. It really sucks too. I have been doing this for years now. If I wasn't so broke I would invest in an Akai MPC to use to sequence my tracks into cubase with.

[synthoid]

Originally Posted by Absent1

Those end up to be expensive midi chains unless you are using all the ins and outs.

Indeed. If you like and need the extra A/D conversion channels then it's not as bad, but still not cheap. And the TotalMix thing only works for each unit separately (you can't mix the inputs of daisy-chained units together via TotalMix). On the + side, they are very solid units, and the 400s are really nice as a portable unit since they can be powered from the FW bus.

-synthoid

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by ghostdog

hi all

I am using Cubase SX with my Dell Inspiron 8600 2Ghz 2gig ram, Digirgam VXpocket soundcard and Edirol keyboard controller. I am using usb to the edirol......I am nearly in tears over the timing troubles i am having trying to get a basic beat happening, obviously it is possible as people are still releasing records, but nothing is like my old Atari 1040ste and Akai 3200XL sampler ( I dont own them anymore)
I use to be able to get a cool beat happening ten years ago in seconds now I have to try and get the timing right in the SX editor....should I get an external midi i/o?....

maybe its just my set up is missing that...i do intend to get an Andromeda A6 and CODE in the future, but obviously want to get some tight beats first

Hey Ghost,
Have you tried FXpansion's Guru?

FXpansion - Guru

Seems like a pretty deep drum sampler. Some nice quantizing and groove template options. Not sure if it will be any tighter than your current set up but as the demo is free, it couldn't hurt to give it a try.

Good luck!

[bogeyeater]

yeah, i've been messing with the guru demo

very pleased with it - gonna buy

it's tight, intuitive - very fast. like the independent looping functions between engines - makes cool polyrhythmic stuff. great ways of thinking about kit assigns and the loop chopping functions are........ !!!!!!!

for version .x, i'd like to see an option to assign each engine to an external midi channel so that you could fire external hardware with it. if you could perhaps get a simple 1 track timed based grid editor you could record/edit basic scene changes

Those would be great improvements. I don't want to have to rely on CPU hungry host platforms - i'd love it as a standalone piece doing it's thing on a separate laptop hooking up to the main rig via midi over lan.

[sourcekode]

how accurate is guru's timing? i did a test the other night with battery by simply bouncing a straight quantized kick drum from battery and then lining it up as audio in the arrange. shocked to see how much it drifts. after cutting out all the kicks, chopping them to the transient and quantizing the audio regions, it was much tighter. anyone else try this?

[Prahlad]

Originally Posted by sourcekode

how accurate is guru's timing? i did a test the other night with battery by simply bouncing a straight quantized kick drum from battery and then lining it up as audio in the arrange. shocked to see how much it drifts. after cutting out all the kicks, chopping them to the transient and quantizing the audio regions, it was much tighter. anyone else try this?

Sorry to have lost track of this thread...this is basivally the way to do it, ridiculous but true, actually chop up your loop into its single compononets and manually position them in your time grid as audio, especially for dance music where everything must be tight this makes a huge difference, anytime youre going to trigger things with midi there wil be a noticeable drift,o solution is to record it and manually playe the audio in the right spot....

[CharlesD]

Man forget about Cubase!
Buy some MPC for sampler needs!

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by Reptil

Emagic sorted this succesfully with their AMT, Cubase also has one. M-audio keystation doesn't.

The question today is if apple still use the AMT since the Emagic interfaces arent made anymore. Core midi has midi time stamp (MTS) built in as long as the software guys choose to implement it. The hardware that curently supports and use MTS is Motu and Digidesign.

So the question I have is if apple use their own timing protocol for logic or if they stick with AMT or if they use both.

[steffenb]

just one thought, and please dont laugh at me , im serious ;)

go to your cubase folder and look for the folder called midi port enabler,
take the files that are in it and put them into the main folder of cubase ...
solved bad timing problems for me ...

i know the files are just some pdf`s and file called enableemulated but
it works for me and works for a lot of other people also ;)

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by bogeyeater

for version .x, i'd like to see an option to assign each engine to an external midi channel so that you could fire external hardware with it. if you could perhaps get a simple 1 track timed based grid editor you could record/edit basic scene changes

GURU 2 already does this. Each engine responds to the MIDI channel that corresponds with its number (i.e. Engine 1 is MIDI channel 1, Engine 5 is MIDI channel 5) right out of the box. You should be able to target your sequencer at GURU channel n and trigger the samples for that channel - I do it all the time.

The way I use GURU within Pro Tools is to sequence only the scene changes, actually, like your proposed editor. It would be pretty cool to have that functionality within the tool so that one could use it like a standalone drum machine. I really enjoy the performance flexibility that GURU has with the existing instantaneous scene changes, though. You can come up with some pretty incredible, complex, repeatable breaks by having a few very different scenes and triggering them part-way through the pattern (and the previously mentioned polyrhythmic capabilities are so cool it hurts).

-Matt

[Angus_FX]

how accurate is guru's timing? i did a test the other night with battery by simply bouncing a straight quantized kick drum from battery and then lining it up as audio in the arrange. shocked to see how much it drifts. after cutting out all the kicks, chopping them to the transient and quantizing the audio regions, it was much tighter. anyone else try this?

GURU is *sample accurate*, when using the internal sequencer. When triggering events from outside (e.g. PT) it's limited by the timing accuracy of the host, which for MIDI is usually tick-based and of the order of a few hundred microseconds (maybe 10-20 samples).

[Angus_FX]

Incidentally.. the main reason MPCs have such a reputation for timing is that they have a high speed link between the sequencer and sampler side of things. With wire MIDI, the absolute best case resolution you'll get is of the order of 750usec, and you can *very easily* end up with a situation where you're getting drift of 10msec or more (if you're triggering five or six notes at once and sending some CC information, for example).

MPCs, when using the onboard sampler, don't suffer from this; the same is true of softsynths (well, those that don't have timing bugs *cough*), but in the case of most sequencers, you start to lose timing accuracy again when swing/shuffle comes in to the picture.

That's because sequencers typically clock their MIDI to a grid at 480ppqn (or sometimes 960ppqn), which at 80bpm is 1.5ms. Great for notes that fall on the grid, but pretty lame for swung notes that don't.

[initself]

Originally Posted by synthoid

I have several Firefaces daisy-chained to give me enough MIDI outs (there are 2 MIDI ins and outs on a FF400 and one in and out on a FF800).

I hope you're not just using the FFs for MIDI alone! That seems very extreme!



mb