Help Me NOT Hate Programming Drums

[undermind]

I've always been used to having a drummer on hand to record anytime. Now I'm doing it all myself. I don't make "electronic" music, but would like to use some unusual found sounds in a rhythmic way, in addition to some straight forward rhythm tracks with traditional sounds.

My problem is programming. I really don't like it. I can see doing it if I could use a program that was easy to use and got results quickly. I've been using ReDrum on Reason and I just cannot program something from scratch that doesn't sound horrible. I can never think of a beat in my head and program it using ReDrum. It always comes accross very stiff and there's never a "human" feel to it.

I've had better luck in the past with hardware drum machines. I think a lot of the reason for that is you could come up with a baseline beat and then do some cool automatic "rearrangements" that mixed up the beat and changed the feel. Sure it wasn't the beat I had in mind, but it was usually better.

So I'm wondering what's out there that would be inspiring for me. I've got DFH but haven't tried BFD. I know BFD has some programming capabilities, but could never convince anyone to tell me how useful it is. I use Cubase SX3 and would appreciate something I could integrate into a project in real time, but it doesn't have to.

What do you think??

[Mark1353]

Use hardware pads and turn off quantize. Then all you need is good sounds and some skill. If you dont have skill and want to make your own rhythms using individual hits then you just need to practise, there's no shortcut.

[spsnoise]

You need Rayzoon Jamstix:

rayzoon technologies

Can use internal sounds or host any vst. Maps perfect with BFD or DFH. Probably the most natural sounding drum patterns I've heard come from in the box.

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by undermind

I've always been used to having a drummer on hand to record anytime. Now I'm doing it all myself. I don't make "electronic" music, but would like to use some unusual found sounds in a rhythmic way, in addition to some straight forward rhythm tracks with traditional sounds.

My problem is programming. I really don't like it. I can see doing it if I could use a program that was easy to use and got results quickly. I've been using ReDrum on Reason and I just cannot program something from scratch that doesn't sound horrible. I can never think of a beat in my head and program it using ReDrum. It always comes accross very stiff and there's never a "human" feel to it.

I've had better luck in the past with hardware drum machines. I think a lot of the reason for that is you could come up with a baseline beat and then do some cool automatic "rearrangements" that mixed up the beat and changed the feel. Sure it wasn't the beat I had in mind, but it was usually better.

So I'm wondering what's out there that would be inspiring for me. I've got DFH but haven't tried BFD. I know BFD has some programming capabilities, but could never convince anyone to tell me how useful it is. I use Cubase SX3 and would appreciate something I could integrate into a project in real time, but it doesn't have to.

What do you think??

I believe Toontracks just released a free app that will allow you to use all of the midi grooves from EZ Drummer with DFH-check their site for more info. Couple that with Stylus RMX (awesome app!) and that'll be about as pain free as programming drums is gonna get.

[gsilbers]

ah crap. u beat me to it.. EZplayer Free will solve your troubles. works on any other synth/drum sampler. drag and drop cool midi drum loops u can edit later easily.
no big name drummers or BS like that, just basic drum grooves for regular pop/rock with
variations.

[undermind]

Hmm. Yeah I got the email from Toontracks about EZplayer. I looked into it a long time ago and I guess I forgot about it. Sounds cool, I'll look into it. Thanks.

[robd]

get a roland hansonic. Use it to record MIDI. Do a number of passes if there are more parts than you can play at once with your fingers. Problem solved. (I very seldom enjoy programming drums myself. The only time I like programming a drum part is when it it something abstract, bizarre, mechanical, and nigh-unto impossible for a human to play.)

[undermind]

Originally Posted by robd

get a roland hansonic. Use it to record MIDI. Do a number of passes if there are more parts than you can play at once with your fingers. Problem solved. (I very seldom enjoy programming drums myself. The only time I like programming a drum part is when it it something abstract, bizarre, mechanical, and nigh-unto impossible for a human to play.)

That looks pretty cool. My problem is that I'm not a "drummer" enough to really create good beats myself. Building, transitioning. Sure I can come up with beats, but I'm used to working with some really talented drummers that always played the right thing. If I could think of the proper beat, I would probably play it myself on a real drumset.

[undermind]

Originally Posted by gsilbers

ah crap. u beat me to it.. EZplayer Free will solve your troubles. works on any other synth/drum sampler. drag and drop cool midi drum loops u can edit later easily.
no big name drummers or BS like that, just basic drum grooves for regular pop/rock with
variations.

After spending awhile on Toontrack's website, I think you're describing EZdrummer, not EZplayer. But you're right. That's pretty cool. I'm not sure how I ever missed this program.

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

I believe Toontracks just released a free app that will allow you to use all of the midi grooves from EZ Drummer with DFH-check their site for more info. Couple that with Stylus RMX (awesome app!) and that'll be about as pain free as programming drums is gonna get.

Crap, so you have to use EZplayer to be able to use the samples from DFH in EZdrummer?? That's kind of silly.

I've owned DFH for awhile and have never actually used it in any songs. What I'm curious about is if you can get these drums to sound fat. The drum sound I usually dig is a warm, fat, sound that you might get from a pair of room mics in a good sounding room. I'm wondering what you can do with the sounds once you've got a complete track. It seems to me like I feel limited when I'm working with midi in terms of effects. You don't have the same reverbs, compression, etc at your disposal as you would real recorded audio. Has anybody tried to fatten these drum tracks up? Maybe you could do a stereo mix and export as a .wav file and do some work to it. I wonder what a track created by EZdrummer would sound like after a Fatso and some cool vintage hardware reverb..

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by undermind

Crap, so you have to use EZplayer to be able to use the samples from DFH in EZdrummer?? That's kind of silly.

I've owned DFH for awhile and have never actually used it in any songs. What I'm curious about is if you can get these drums to sound fat. The drum sound I usually dig is a warm, fat, sound that you might get from a pair of room mics in a good sounding room. I'm wondering what you can do with the sounds once you've got a complete track. It seems to me like I feel limited when I'm working with midi in terms of effects. You don't have the same reverbs, compression, etc at your disposal as you would real recorded audio. Has anybody tried to fatten these drum tracks up? Maybe you could do a stereo mix and export as a .wav file and do some work to it. I wonder what a track created by EZdrummer would sound like after a Fatso and some cool vintage hardware reverb..

I thought EZplayer allowed you to use the midi files from EZdrummer to trigger your sounds right from within DFH (or another host). This not the case?

I'd say you're on the right track as far as processing the DFH drum sounds. Of course, which 'magic box' is gonna give you the sound you are dreaming of is gonna be another journey altogether!

[undermind]

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

[I thought EZplayer allowed you to use the midi files from EZdrummer to trigger your sounds right from within DFH (or another host). This not the case?

No you're right. I was just thinking it's kind of funny that you have to use 3 different programs in order to use the DFHS samples in EZdrummer. It seems like EZdrummer should be able to use the sounds from DFHS without any help.

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

I'd say you're on the right track as far as processing the DFH drum sounds. Of course, which 'magic box' is gonna give you the sound you are dreaming of is gonna be another journey altogether!

Of course! Ideally though, the magic box is something you already own! In general, I think the sounds of a DFH created drum track are pretty sterile. But then again, a dry unprocessed real drum submix usually is too.

[undermind]

Originally Posted by spsnoise

You need Rayzoon Jamstix:

rayzoon technologies

Can use internal sounds or host any vst. Maps perfect with BFD or DFH. Probably the most natural sounding drum patterns I've heard come from in the box.

Man, that Jamstix is actually pretty cool. It seems a more fine tune-able than EZdrummer. But maybe less preset rhtyhms..

The videos on the website are great. That "Jamstix" intro themesong is classic! But the girl narrating is a little creepy.

[gsilbers]

u can have EZ player free only without having EZdrummer.

EZdrummer has some of the DFH samples and it uses the same GUI as EZplayer. actually EZ player has the same GUI than EZdrummer. (it was release later. )

EZplayer free IS only the GUI (MIDI part) of EZdrummer.

EZplayer free only has midi loops and no sound at all. u load it on a intrument track and on its GUI u select which midi channel or sampler (BFD, EZ drummer, DFH, kontakt etc) or whatever drum instrument u loaded in another intrument track u want to trigger.

im guessing the midi loops where played using midi drums and its variations and fills are all the same as the ones found in EZdrummer. u can get more from their site or other sites. the loops can be drag and dropped to the EZplayer track or the drum module track.


so the EZplayer free has no sounds, just midi. after loading it and selecting which drum module to trigger with it u can preview the midi loops with the drum module sounds. the loops are basic and standard for pop/rock and have variations for the never ending formula of verse/corus/verse /corus/brigde/corus plus decent fills.
which in contrast u have drumcore which has really bad loops and badly recorded sounds from the best on the field (dont know how that could go wrong!)

then in EZ player free u drag and drop the midi files into the track and edit it in a GM way (no rex style midi editing like stylus) so u can add and subtract stuff easily.
the midi loops has ghost hits and different velocity layers.

and ITS FREE. .. u have to register w your email and fill out some questions so i recommend using your spam email address.

all that just to be clear on EZplayer free as i had had it for a while and seems to be some confusion with it and its great for me so i trigger not only BFD but synth, battery 3 and EXS24 with weird sample to double the drums (after editing of course).

[Methlab]

Undermind, drum programming is a skill that takes a while. I think we all sucked at one time. I would reccomend this route:

Buy Addictive drums...it sounds great and takes no time to setup. I love BFD, but it has a much higher learning curve. You want something you can jump right into if you are new to programming.

Then find a song that you like the drums to and program the entire thing. nail every little thing down. A lot of the fills are faster then you think..32nds..32nd note triplets..shit like that.

This is without a doubt the best way to learn to program. After doing one song top to bottom, you will have a much better grasp for fills, and you will see how to make a drum part feel human..even if it is pretty hard to the grid. I can do this now pretty fast, but attention to detail is key..you have to nail every nuance, because that is what makes it not feel stiff.

I started with Rayzoon and loops...etc..I am too much of a control freak to rely on searching for the right loops or hoping that Jamstix does it right for me.

Learning to program is very tough, but it is real rewarding, and you will be much more into it once you knock a song out and see your progress.

[danranges]

i've always found that the more creative and impossible the drum beats are, the more fun they are to program.

i say throw caution to the wind and go wild. once you get comfy with the fun programming, the lame stuff might become a bit more tolerable because of your better understanding of it.

also, it's all about nuance.

[Dr.Wu]

if you want fat sounding drums that come with real sounding grooves you should check
Addictive Drums.
www.xlnaudio.com
incredible stuff. totally flexible and sounds almost like a real drummer.
For something even more real get RMX with the Backbeat and Burning Grooves Expanders.
what you loose in terms of flexibility you will gain in ease of use and realism.

thumbsup

[undermind]

Wow, great responses and info guys.

Addictive Drums seems very cool. I'm glad you guys mentioned it.

That is a great tip Methlab; finding a song and attempting to recreate the drums top to bottom. I know it would be a challenge, but a great way to learn as you mention.

I got EZdrummer yesterday and messed with it a little bit. It's pretty exciting to use. When it came out I sort of ignored it because I already had DFH. But for me, EZdrummer is a lot more useful. I know I can do a lot of the same things on the drum maps, but it's a lot easier to start with a groove. And EZdrummer couldn't get much easier, and the sounds are pretty amazing, IMO.
The drawbacks for me are the shortness of the groove loops. I know this is a lot different than using real loops in Acid or something, but I would find it easier if the loops were longer. Also they are a little busy for me. This is always my widespread complaint with drum loops or grooves. I always want "less". Especially with actual recorded loops. The artist is always compensating for the fact that they're the only ones playing; taking the place of where the rest of the instruments should be.
My music is not straight ahead rock. It is very dynamic and requires the drums to be more of an accent than a backbone. So it's difficult to sprinkle it in delicately like a real drummer would be able to do. Pretty much everything I've heard is better suited to straight up rock/pop/reggae, etc.

Anyways, thanks again everybody who's contributed. You've shown me some products I didn't know existed. There truly are a lot of options these days, especially compared to when I recorded my last album 4 years ago.